Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[TanNinety]

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

There is no need to struggle and to labor but to quietly take what God has prepared at infinite sacrifice.

If it was that simple, can you explain the above verse? Why fear and tremble in working out salvation? Mind you this was being told to someone who were already believers. Whom you would say “salvation†has already been given because “it is finishedâ€Â. Then why the warning of “work out salvation†if one cannot lose it once attained?

 

[francisdesales]

Re: reply

Fran, Here is a verse for you to chew on: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. ( John 19:30).

The final moment had come, and as it did, Jesus spoke some of the greatest, if not the greatest words in the Bible, IT IS FINISHED. There are those who suppose He meant that the suffering was finished or that the expression was the last sign of ebbing life. But rather it was an evidence that His work was done.

"It is finished" means His work is done??? Perhaps His work as an unglorified human, but it CERTAINLY continued and continues today! First of all, He rose from the dead! He CONTINUED to preach the Gospel after His death. He breathed on the Apostles, giving them the Spirit and authority to forgive sins, AFTER His resurrection (if it was all finished, WHY ON EARTH would the Apostles need to forgive sins? And don't bother with "they preached forgiveness". It doesn't say that there). Christ later ascended into heaven. Later, He came to Paul. And Christ's Spirit is CONSTANTLY being SENT to the Church, the Body of Christ. No, brother, Christ is NOT "done" working, until ALL things are in God.

Salvation had been completed. Alas, that so great a part of believers do not understand this.

For everyone? Salvation is complete for all people? So when Paul said "work out your salvation in fear and trembling", WHY did he say that, if all is "done"? What is the need to persevere, the need to have faith, then? Christ died for the sin of ALL men. Thus, according to you, all men are already saved and need to do nothing, not even have faith or repentance. Faith, hope and love have no meaning in your construct. That is not the message of Scriptures, brother.

There was nothing left undone. And therein is God's greatest revelation to man. His salvation has been completed. All things are ready, is the word. There is nothing more to do but to accept it. There is no need to struggle and to labor but to quietly take what God has prepared at infinite sacrifice.

Well, you are contradicting yourself. The first sentence says "nothing left undone". Then you tell me nothing more to do but to accept it. Yes. We accept it DAILY. That is why we walk from faith to faith. And it is called a "walk". It is a journey, a choice to choose God every day of my life. I walk in confidence that God will provide me a way out of temptation and that He will not abandon me. NOTHING will separate me from His Love for ME. As long as I accept Him, even imperfectly, I will enter union with Him in heaven. But this talk about "it's all done" is not the message I read from Scriptures.

You cannot earn salvation, but you can lose it...

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Javier,
I like the way you delve into scripture and yes, I would agree that Romans is very rich in both doctrine and theology. In your outline however, I am surprised that you did not link the book of Romans to Genesis as it reflects deeply from Genesis.

So let’s talk about Paul shall we? Wasn’t Saul an up and coming Pharisee? As such, Paul would have known the Torah very well. To those not well versed in Torah, his writings may seem a bit confusing, as does the book of Hebrews (suspected as written by Barnabus, the teacher of Paul who most certainly knew his Torah and Tenakh). Let me continue.
You stated,


First, you have once again omitted Ephesians 2:10. Do you not see the value in verse 10? This is why it appears that you create a false dichotomy between faith and works when they are in reality undividable.

My response, (I will be using the Net Bible)
James 2:21-26 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Now Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness,†and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And similarly, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I would claim that Paul, being fully aware of Torah, would be in full agreement with James, the brother of Jesus as both statements reflect heavily on the book of Genesis.

And so it comes full circle, can a true Christian loose their salvation.
I suppose it’s all on how you define “Trueâ€Â, for we will only know these things when we have endured as our faith is and will be continually tested through obedience.
1 Peter 1:7 Such trials show the proven character of your faith, which is much more valuable than gold – gold that is tested by fire, even though it is passing away – and will bring praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
And this, from the KJV
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In summary, isn't that our purpose? To give Glory and Honor to God in every thing that we do by doing the work of our Lord?

Nice one Stove.

I'm not really sure what 'true Christian' means myself. Most accept the definition that ANYONE that 'believes that Christ existed' is a 'Christian'. I wonder. Others state that their belief in 'what' a 'true Christian' IS, is one that has accepted Christ 'into their hearts'. I wonder. Still further, we have The Word. In it, there are MANY stipulations that define 'what' a 'true Christian' MUST BE. Since I am NOT going to offend ANYONE through my offering here, I suggest that EACH of those that 'think' that they are 'true Christians' examine the evidence and 'judge themselves' accordingly. If one is able to 'fool themselves', then I guess that they will certainly 'find out' if this is so one day.

But that you have come to the understanding that works ARE a 'part' of Salvation is comforting. Not that one is ABLE to work their way into Salvation, it IS a gift, BUT, faith without WORKS, IS dead. Or, put another way, faith without works is really NO faith at all.

Too many scripture stating that Salvation IS conditional for me to fall for that, 'EVERYONE is saved' nonsense. Too much scripture all but STATING OUTRIGHT that Salvation CAN be lost for me to believe otherwise. IF one CAN be saved, then it would stand to reason that one CAN be LOST, even after having been saved.

Satan tempting Chist offers a bit of insight concerning this matter. NOT from a 'trinitarian' standpoint, (for these believe that there was NO temptation of Christ to start with), but from MY understanding, Christ was tempted in the HOPES of Satan to subvert Jesus to 'his side'. This would be a 'prime indication' that if Chist had SO CHOSEN, then so are we too able to alter WHO we worship.

MEC

 

[JM]

Context, please. Jeremiah 32:40 is to the Jews, and only those Jews who kept the covenant he had made with them. If you keep reading, you will see how in chapter 33, the promises of peace and joy forever and everlasting blessing and of a king from David’s seed to reign in unbroken succession and a Levite to offer sacrifices continually, go on and on as God pledges HIS faithfulness and HIS intention to keep the covenant without fail, all the way down to Jeremiah 34:12 where you see that BECAUSE they did not keep their part of the everlasting covenant, it became null and void, and he sends them off into captivity again, and those who broke their word to him, to be given over to the sword, the pestilence, and the famine. You really should read more than just an isolated verse or two from a word search, JM. If anything at all, this is proof that the everlasting covenant was only everlasting as long as BOTH parties performed their vows. I hope at this point, I have put the fear of God into your heart that you might repent and see how you have taken his word irresponsibly, and not used it as it was written. These were written for our examples, JM. Do you see how God put fear into their hearts? The same way a father puts fear into his children not to do wrong. My Dad never pulled out a chair to put his shoe on to tie it that we didn’t tremble, wondering who was going to get a spanking at his hand. ( and NO, I was not an abused child. I had the best Dad in the world who loved us more than life.)

Context, sure, lets see if the context you suggest.

THE GREATER CONTEXT: Abraham’s justification was used by Paul in Romans 4 to illustrate God’s pattern for saving all believers in all ages, from Genesis 12 to Revelation we find the story of Abraham’s seed in the world. Christ came into this world: “To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; The oath which he sware to our father Abraham.†Luke 1:72-73 No matter which way you want to slice it the Gospel is the fulfillment of the Covenant made with Abraham and the covenant mentioned in Jeremiah. In Galatians 3:7 we find it clearly taught by the Apostle Paul that all who have faith are Abraham’s children, we are the blessed with Abraham v. 9 because of faith and Christ died so this blessing might come to us the gentiles v. 14. Abraham experienced the justification of faith in the promise of the Gospel [Galatians 3:6-9, 18] and we as believers experience the same justification because we are Abraham’s true seed [Gal. 3:29]. In Gal. 3:16 Paul argues for ‘seed’ and not ‘seeds’ and that one seed is Christ, so what unred is trying to do is limit the spiritual promise of redemption to a the physical line of Abraham and in so doing contradicts Paul’s testimony in Galatians 3:16. It makes null and void Paul’s argument, and contradicts the promise to the seed of Abraham…which has nothing to do with physical birth…but faith.

True faith and not birthright determined salvation.

Renewal by the Holy Ghost due to electing work of Grace is the only way one can access the promise made to Abraham [Romans 9:11, 23-24; Hebrews 6:13-15]. We find both “Esau’s†and “Jacobs†or unbelievers and believers born into physical Israel, one is loved and regenerated the other hated, it should be noted that God compares two nature seeds of Abraham with only one being an heir to the promise, covenant born means little in terms of salvation.

Quote: “The nation of Israel is not the body of Christ, even though the body of Christ is the true Israel.â€Â

The true spiritual seed of Abraham are all true believers in every age, “And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.†So nice try, you can't simply cast off a chuck of Scripture as being "for the Jews and not the Church."

Back to the op.

In John 17 we find the high priestly prayer of Jesus Christ for His people. What many do not realize is this: if Christ’s prayer for His people is not heard or rejected by God the Father, they are denying the Holy Trinity for Christ is not equal with the God the Father.

jm
PS: unred, I'm still waiting to see if you want to have a formal debate with me...

 

[JM]

It was not that God loved Jacob and not Esau,

"Jacob I loved but Esau I hated..." You need to read Romans before trying to offer your understanding of it. Election of a group is election of a group of people, individuals who make up that group...for God's purpose in election might stand. "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).

Quote: It is impossible to have a national election without the election of individual units within the national group, because you must still contend with the units in the group. So, to say that Romans 9, for example, has to do only with national election and not with individual election is an impossibility; that is, it is a contradiction in terms. If we say that it is national election, then we have the election of a number of individual units within the corporate, national body, since not everybody in the nation is "elected" salvifically. So, we’re back at the same question that we started with when we talk about election; why is any one person and not another "elect?" We answer: God's personal love and mercy to the one and not the other. We thank our Arminian friends for revealing that they believe salvation is just a matter of impersonal, retributive justice, not absolute, personal mercy.

Paul would say, “What on earth are you trying to pull? That’s not even close to what I meantâ€Â

Now you know what Paul "would" say? You're joking, I hope.

I notice you end your fabrication with a statement of truth; “The true spiritual seed of Abraham are all true believers in every age, “And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.†the question is, “Who are Christ’s?†Those that obey him or those who obey Satan?
Romans 6:16
Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Once freed from sin, we are servants of God, period. We have fruit, we remain faithful.

The OP is Can true Christians lose their salvation ? I must be particularly dense tonight. What does your statement have to do with anything on topic?

I’m going to decline the offer to debate with you. I find Calvinism to be so infuriating that I would rather spend the time trying to untangle that 3 mile strand of kite string the kids balled up and I would no doubt be tempted to make crude comments that would not be pleasing to God. Thanks for the honor of considering me a worthy opponent. You go ahead. I'm ok with these forums.
8-)

I agree with your second sentence.

John 17:11 Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

In John 17 we find the high priestly prayer of Jesus Christ for His people [those who are saved, He prays NOT for the world]. What you [unred] do not realize is this: if Christ’s prayer for His people is not heard or rejected by God the Father, you are denying the Holy Trinity for Christ is not equal with God the Father for His prayers are being rejected.

I understand you may prefer informal debates where you can misrepresent to no end what I believe using appeals to the emotions of the reader instead of facts. A formal debate would expose this and that’s the last thing you want. The first step ["I find Calvinism to be so infuriating..."] is admitting you have a problem.

Ephesians 1:11-12 Works are the result not the cause of election.
Ephesians 2:10 Works are the result not the cause of election.


jm

 

[AVBunyan]

UNREAD TYPO
1 Do you believe that Jesus is God ?

2 Do you believe that Jesus is the second person of the trinity?

Hmmmm - good observation oscar3 - This may explain some things - Plus I doubt even if you get an answer that it will not be a simple yes or no.

God bless

 

[unred typo]

oscar3 wrote:“UNREAD TYPO
1 Do you believe that Jesus is God ?
2 Do you believe that Jesus is the second person of the trinity?â€Â

Hmmmm - good observation oscar3 - This may explain some things - Plus I doubt even if you get an answer that it will not be a simple yes or no.
God bless

You know me so well. Maybe I’m not as unread as I thought. A simple yes or no would be so… not simple, since the question is back loaded with so many different theologies. I believe everything the Bible states about him. If that includes that he is God, sure, I believe that too. I’m not opposed to saying he is God, in fact I believed it for years. I even have several workable ideas to believe the trinity. At this point in my life I find I cannot be as dogmatic as I was in my impetuous youth about things that are not clearly spelled out. Nor do I think it matters to God what we believe specifically in those regards. I know he is the only begotten Son of God, born of a virgin, and all things are under him, and one day he will return to his original place in the Father where he was when he created the universes so God may be all in all. I know he was the word made flesh and the express image of the invisible God. I know that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself and that you can worship and obey him as God because God said so. Is that simple enough for you?
:fadein:

p.s. You're off topic, unless you want to speculate that I have lost my salvation since I no longer believe in the trinity as you probably have defined it. :wink:

 

[Oscar3]

You know me so well. Maybe I’m not as unread as I thought. A

You do tend to speak in riddles. I have found that people who speak in riddles often do this because they have no clue what is is right and what is wrong.

simple yes or no would be so… not simple, since the question is back loaded with so many different theologies. :

Frankly a simple yes would have been better, but instead you resorted back to riddles. Ok, thats cool. I will try and figure out these riddles through careful examination of what you wrote. After all you are the one who nit picks everone who does not agree with your views.

I believe everything the Bible states about him.

Ok lets see if this is true :-?

If that includes that he is God, sure, I believe that too. .

Hmmm, this is another riddle :-? My guess is that you are not sure based on the way you answered. People that Believe Jesus is God, leave no room for guesswork. They would give you an infatic ''YES''

I’m not opposed to saying he is God, in fact I believed it for years.

So again. Another riddle :roll: oK, SO you will take Jesus as God or not :o
Well, this will not work. A Jesus of convieniance is ''ANOTHER JESUS''

I even have several workable ideas to believe the trinity.

Another riddle to solve. OK, Since You do not believe the trinity, and you don't know what Jesus you believe in? Could be God or Not :roll: , this leave modalism, or JW. This riddle is a tough one.

At this point in my life I find I cannot be as dogmatic as I was in my impetuous youth about things that are not clearly spelled out. Nor do I think it matters to God what we believe specifically in those regards.

Well, This riddle I can answer for you. first, if you think it does not matter to God that you believe he is God (and by denying Jesus as God you are denying him) then you have an appointement with God at the Great white thrown Judjement seat.

I know he is the only begotten Son of God, born of a virgin, and all things are under him, and one day he will return to his original place in the Father where he was when he created the universes so God may be all in all. I know he was the word made flesh and the express image of the invisible God. I know that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself and that you can worship and obey him as God because God said so. Is that simple enough for you?

There you again with more riddles. Read this again and you will see that what you have just spoken is an oxymoran. :roll: The truth is you do not know what you believe. You ''appear'' to be a JW. All the impressions you leave are those of JW. iF it looks like a duck and smells like a duck and walks like a duck;, ''its a duck''

p.s. You're off topic, unless you want to speculate that I have lost my salvation since I no longer believe in the trinity as you probably have defined it. :wink:

Actually the topic here is can a true Christian loose his salvation?
I do not believe you have lost your salvation, because I don't believe you ever had it to begin with. Let me explain.

Had you been justifed when you were saved, ''YOU WOULD KNOW JESUS IS GOD'' because ''HE'' ''GOD'' an in the ''HOLYSPIRIT'' Who is also ''GOD'' would reavel and you would know that ''JESUS IS GOD''

I will leave you with scripture to ponder.
1 cor chapter 2

2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.


Spiritual Wisdom

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

Nor have entered into the heart of man

The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[samuel]

This is a thread I posted on another board, the subject was can a Christian loose the Holy Spirit. But since this also applies to Salvation, I thought it might be something to consider here.

My son and I have discussed this subject before - here are some of the conclusions we came to.

The Holy Spirit is given to the believer as a permanent seal of Salvation.
Eph 4:30
30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV

Some have gotten the mistaken idea from David’s prayer in Psalms that Gods spirit could be removed.
Ps 51:11
11: Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
KJV

This prayer was David’s confession, and repentance of his sin with Bathsheba. It was a prayer for the restoration of fellowship, and the previous joy, and power of the Holy Spirit’s working in his life, that God would not hide his face or turn his back on him.

Take a look at another example Lot who dwelled in Sodom, and daily vexed the spirit by the things he saw and heard. The spirit was not taken from him, otherwise he would not have been considered a Godly Righteous man. But God rather delivered him out of his circumstances.
2 Peter 2:8
8: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds)
9: The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
KJV

There is one circumstance where it might be thought that Gods spirit has been removed from a person, when in fact they never had it.
Matt 7:21-23
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

These are those who have professed faith in Christ but did not have any true commitment to him. When a person is truly saved his life will change in some way, it may not be a complete overhaul from the beginning, but some evidence of their sincerity will be manifest. Those who profess faith, and continue on with life as usual, and have no remorse for sin are not saved.

No one who is truly indwelt with the spirit of God can sin, without constant feelings of guilt, and remorse for their sinfulness. Some spiritual fruit will be evident in the lives of those who do believe. And should become more evident as their fellowship with the Spirit becomes greater.
John 15:2
2: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
KJV

This verse is a comparison of the righteous, and the unrighteous. Those who are true will over time produce more fruit, those who are false will have their folly revealed. Their sins will be laid bare, and that which they seem to have will be removed, the veil of covering will be rent.
Matt 25:29
29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
KJV

So the person who is truly saved will never loose the spirit, or have it taken away. But those who have a profession, and no possession who never had the spirit; may seem to some they have had the spirit taken away, but in truth never had it to loose in the first place.

 

[stranger]

This is a thread I posted on another board, the subject was can a Christian loose the Holy Spirit. . . .
My son and I have discussed this subject before - here are some of the conclusions we came to.

The Holy Spirit is given to the believer as a permanent seal of Salvation.
Eph 4:30
30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
KJV

Some have gotten the mistaken idea from David’s prayer in Psalms that Gods spirit could be removed.
Ps 51:11
11: Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
KJV

This prayer was David’s confession, and repentance of his sin . . .

Hi Samuel,

David is a good example - can you offer some comments about his nemesis Saul?

IN Christ: Stranger

 

[Free]

Actually the topic here is can a true Christian loose his salvation?
I do not believe you have lost your salvation, because I don't believe you ever had it to begin with.

So how is one saved to begin with?

Really, the debate shouldn't have gone on as long as it has without defining what a "true Christian" is and how one becomes a "true Christian".

Some have gotten the mistaken idea from David’s prayer in Psalms that Gods spirit could be removed.
Ps 51:11
11: Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
KJV

This prayer was David’s confession, and repentance of his sin with Bathsheba. It was a prayer for the restoration of fellowship, and the previous joy, and power of the Holy Spirit’s working in his life, that God would not hide his face or turn his back on him.

Your explanation doesn't rebut the argument. David certainly seemed to think that God's Spirit could be taken away and that he could be removed from the presence of God. That it was a prayer of repentance is irrelevant.

 

[Georges]

Your explanation doesn't rebut the argument. David certainly seemed to think that God's Spirit could be taken away and that he could be removed from the presence of God. That it was a prayer of repentance is irrelevant.

The Spirit came and went on people at God's choosing...Samson is a good example...how many times did the Spirit come upon him energized him?

Point being, The Spirit comes and goes depending on the person. If a person is faithful and Torah obedient, the Spirit rests on him as God chooses. If a person is continually sinful and not repentant, the Spirit will not be upon him....

It's not a once the Spirit comes on you it stays kind of deal...it is possible as seen in Eze 18 for a righteous man to lose his life....that passage is indisputable.

 

[Free]

On second thought, that it was a prayer of repentance is relevant. David knew that sin was the cause of separation between man and God.

 

[destiny]

Cast me not away from thy presence;and take not thy holy spirit from me.

It's pretty plain that David is asking God not to take His holy spirt from him.
The Bible is its own best interpreter, thank the Lord.

Take a look at II Peter, verses 20 and 21, which best summarize its teachings, "For if after they have escaped the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them".

They had "escaped from the pollution of the world through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ"
This doesn't leave me with a doubt that these same people were again entangled in worldly pollution. They had fallen from the way of the truth, and had (again) become sinners. Also, unquestionably they are subject to condemnation for these sins because the verse says that their final state is worse than their initial state, meaning, they are worse off than before they were saved.

Disagreement should disappear when we see that the word of God is stating the obvious fact that Christians cannot remain in sin and be followers of the Lord too.
It's more than a confession, it's old things passed away, it's about walking a narrow obedient path....and loving the Lord enough to do it.

 

[golfjack]

reply

These verses is talking about false teachers of the end-times. We alrerady see that today. what about all these liberal churches? This is what Peter is talking about. You must interpret in context. And buy the way Destiny, you sure are in a hurry to tell people that they lose their salvation. What are trying to do? Put God's people in the loony bin. You mentioned Romans 11:22 as a verse that tells us we can lose our salvation. What say you?



May God bless, golfjack

 

[destiny]

Re: reply

These verses is talking about false teachers of the end-times. We alrerady see that today. what about all these liberal churches? This is what Peter is talking about. You must interpret in context.?

Whether the verse is speaking of false teachers or not is irrelavant to the fact that these people once knew God, and then became entangled in sin again and polluted by the world. (this is the whole point)

And buy the way Destiny, you sure are in a hurry to tell people that they lose their salvation. What are trying to do? Put God's people in the loony bin.

I'm only trying to tell you what the bible says in context, and it speaks for itself not for me. I am only posting the scriptures. I have no desire that any should go in the looney bin over this. Me, you, and all of us are to crucify the old man daily and walk in the re-birth.
Jesus came to give us a better life, I would more likely be in the looney bin if I still walked according to my flesh.
Does that mean i'm perfect? No, I have my own salvation to work out, my own weaknesses and temptations like anybody else. But I am not suppose to live as the heathen does or walk according to the flesh, this doesn't mean I won't slip, but I must never live in known sin. Grace enables me to live a changed life, but grace does not allow me to live as I did while in the world.

You mentioned Romans 11:22 as a verse that tells us we can lose our salvation. What say you?

"Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off."

Consider the word "if"

 

[golfjack]

reply

Come on Destiny. The verse in Romans is talking about the Gentles being a burden on the Jews. Or are one of those that seem to think that the Church replaces Israel?


May God bless, golfjack

 

[destiny]

Golf is right, what say you destiny?

It seems to me that those who are worried about loosing their salvation have reason to worry :o

If I was worried about losing my salvation I would become a once saved always saved believer, then I could sin all I wanted to without having to worry about going to hell.

As it is, I'll try to live as a born again believer instead of a heathen.

Is there something wrong with that?

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: reply

You are right Oscar. I could never figure out Calvanist Thelogy either. It has so many holes that it cam make me crazy. May God bless, golfjack

* Most of the greatest missionaries of yesteryear were Calvinist.

* Most of the greatest writers and theologians between 1600-1850 were Calvinists.

* Most of the greatest preacher/evangelists between 1600-1850 were Calvinists.

* Most of the most beloved pastors between 1600-1850 were Calvinists.

* Most of the greatest hymn writers of yesteryear were Calvinists.

Maybe you ought to consider re-evaluating. There are a lot misconceptions about this.

God bless

 

[JM]

Re: reply

golfjack wrote:
You are right Oscar. I could never figure out Calvanist Thelogy either. It has so many holes that it cam make me crazy. May God bless, golfjack

Talk about Arminians not understanding context of what was written! :

* Most of the greatest missionaries of yesteryear were Calvinist.

* Most of the greatest writers and theologians between 1600-1850 were Calvinists.

* Most of the greatest preacher/evangelists between 1600-1850 were Calvinists.

* Most of the most beloved pastors between 1600-1850 were Calvinists.

* Most of the greatest hymn writers of yesteryear were Calvinists.

Maybe you ought to consider re-evaluating. There are a lot misconceptions about this.

God bless

Yes, AV is correct, once again.

Peace,

jm