Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Pogo]

A case can be made to support any position by taking passages of scripture out of context.

Jesus is clearly speaking only about the apostles in those passages!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[3rddayuprising]

A case can be made to support any position by taking passages of scripture out of context.

Jesus is clearly speaking only about the apostles in those passages!

In Christ,

Pogo

John 6:44,45 "No man can come unto Me, except the father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. EVERY man therefore that hath heard of the Father, cometh unto Me."

John 10:9 "I (Jesus) am the door: by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd, and know My sheep, and am known of Mine.
As the Father knoweth Me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down My life for the sheep.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

I don't know what "shepherd" you are trusting in, but all of the true sheep of God's Kingdom are "given eyes to see" and "ears to hear" the Revelation and Voice of their True shepherd. There are many hirelings who try to poach and rustle on God's ranch, but the True Shepherd watches over His own, and keeps those He shed His blood for. No one can "pluck them out of His father's hands." John 10:29

John 10:26-29 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of My hand.
My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My father's hand."

Naaahhhh! I think I'll stick with Jesus. Thank you very much. I kind of like the context in which He speaks.

 

[Pogo]

Most of the passages from John which you have listed go hand-in-hand with the passages in Ephesians and Romans which are speaking about those who are predestined by God to perfom certain tasks here on earth.

Drew has posted much in this forum. and others, regarding predestination.

Hopefully, many will profit from his study.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[3rddayuprising]

Most of the passages from John which you have listed go hand-in-hand with the passages in Ephesians and Romans which are speaking about those who are predestined by God to perfom certain tasks here on earth.

Drew has posted much in this forum. and others, regarding predestination.

Hopefully, many will profit from his study.

In Christ,

Pogo

I think I'll stay with teaching of Jesus, which perfectly compliment the true teachings of Paul. But thanks anyway.

 

[3rddayuprising]

Most of the passages from John which you have listed go hand-in-hand with the passages in Ephesians and Romans which are speaking about those who are predestined by God to perfom certain tasks here on earth.

Drew has posted much in this forum. and others, regarding predestination.

Hopefully, many will profit from his study.

In Christ,

Pogo

Jesus Christ was "predestinated to a certain task"; which was to seek and to save and to KEEP all those that the Father "gave to come to Him". What security! to be safe and sound in the body of Him Who is "sealed". "Him hath God the Father sealed" John 6:27

 

[Pogo]

Posted by 3rddayuprising

I think I'll stay with teaching of Jesus, which perfectly compliment the true teachings of Paul. But thanks anyway.

You seem very confident that you are correctly interpreting the passages to which you have referenced!

Would you agree that whenever the interpretations of two passages relating to a single issue are in conflict, then one of the interpretations, if not both, are in error?

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[3rddayuprising]

Posted by 3rddayuprising

I think I'll stay with teaching of Jesus, which perfectly compliment the true teachings of Paul. But thanks anyway.

You seem very confident that you are correctly interpreting the passages to which you have referenced!

Would you agree that whenever the interpretations of two passages relating to a single issue are in conflict, then one of the interpretations, if not both, are in error?

In Christ,

Pogo

Some Truths are so obvious, foundational and precious that John wrote this; 1 John 4:6 "We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hearby know we the Spirit of Truth, and the spirit of error."

THIS is the confidence in which I stand firm. Eternal security is a "given"...to the Elect; a GIVEN Revelation! To those who fuss about it and disbelieve...it obviously hasn't been given.

You see, True Doctrine isn't some intellectually arrived at reasonable sounding, theologically proven out ideas,...but It is an EXPERIENCING of God by those drawn by His Spirit into that secret place of Revelation. Eternal security is an experience and an inner knowing, the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen. A realm of Life untouched, unknown...by the uncalled and unpredestinated.

 

[Pogo]

Posted by 3rddayuprising...

Eternal security is an experience and an inner knowing, the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

You seem very comfortable in taking great liberties with God’s word!

The above quote is a corruption of the following passage…

Hebrews 11:1 KJV
(1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In my view, every position of yours, that I have read here in these forums, is flawed in some way.

I can see no benefit in attempting to engage you in discussions of the scriptures.

Good luck in your search for the truth.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[3rddayuprising]

Posted by 3rddayuprising...

Eternal security is an experience and an inner knowing, the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

You seem very comfortable in taking great liberties with God’s word!

The above quote is a corruption of the following passage…

Hebrews 11:1 KJV
(1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

In my view, every position of yours, that I have read here in these forums, is flawed in some way.

I can see no benefit in attempting to engage you in discussions of the scriptures.

Good luck in your search for the truth.

In Christ,

Pogo

"FAITH" is the context of this Scripture in Hebrews 11, which IS an "inner knowing"...REVELATION. Yes, I "take liberty" in sharing the Scriptures....freely giving what I've freely received!

Thanks for the "good luck" but prefer God's blessing. I'm not here to"engage" (debate) anyway, too busy sharing and looking for others of "like precious faith".

 

[Cornelius]

Its not so much "loosing" it, as not walking IN it.

At any time, we can depart from our salvation. Its not God Who looses us, but we who walk away.
Salvation is an ongoing thing and not a once off experience. Our spirit gets reborn, but that is only step no 1. After that, our soul (mind, emotions, will ) must be renewed, by the washing of the Word. We must become the Word (in our thinking and in what we say) Christ is the Word and that Word must dwell in the believer and take him over.

We as Christians must be transformed into His image, while we are here on earth.2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.

There are certain things, that we can refuse to do as Christians, that will stop us being a disciple of Jesus.


Luk 14:33 So therefore whosoever he be of you that renounceth not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Mat 10:38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me.

Christians who do not take up their cross (its an instrument of death, not a heavy burden as some would teach ) will not make it, neither they that renounce not all they have, nor they that want to keep their lives and not lay them down.

C

 

[St Francis]

...At any time, we can depart from our salvation. Its not God Who looses us, but we who walk away....

Well said.
I agree.

 

[Theo_Book]

Hi Folks
I have decided to start this thread to discuss if ''True Christians'' can loose their salvation.....

Hi JG;
I have not read the 531 posts in the thread, but have read the first two pages, which comprises a BUUUNCH of posts.

I did not see that about which I am concerned so thought it might not be innapropriate to pose a question, and perhaps save myself some time. And my question is this: Has anyone dealt with the issue of Judas falling away. He was certainly a member of Jesus' inner circle, had the Holy Spirit, worked miracles, healed the sick, raised the dead, did all the things the other apostles could do, but yet, reverted to his prior character.

If this has been dealt with, I would continue to read. If it has not, I would like to hear what you have to say about it. I consider Judas to be in somewhat the same category as Pharoah; that is, he had evil in his heart, and did not repent, so God used him in that capacity because God needed a man with evil in his heart for a mission requiring such a characteristic. What say you?

 

[Pogo]

Theo_Book,

My Bible tells me that Judas Iscariot DID repent!

Matthew 27:3 KJV
(3) Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Theo_Book]

Theo_Book,

My Bible tells me that Judas Iscariot DID repent!

Matthew 27:3 KJV
(3) Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

In Christ,

Pogo

Pogo;
Thank you for your response.

"Repented himself" in that reference is not "Godly repentance" that results from "Godly sorrow." The same scripture also tells us Judas went out and hanged himself. "Self-murder" is not an act of repentence, but of self-loathing, and totally giving up on God's ability to forgive. It is a rejection of Christ's sacrifice and salvation.

Scripture also tells us Judas "went to his own place," which indicates he did not go where the honorable saints awaited judgment and eternity.

What say you?

 

[Free]

bump

 

[Joe67]

The Lord told the children of Israel to not destroy Esau because he is Jacob's brother. The Lord said that he had a place for Esau.

Judas and Esau being of the same spirit, God has a place for even this part of his family, but not serving with Jesus in the priestly ministration as testified in Revelation 5:9,10.

Only the priesthood of Jesus live in the city. They serve those on the outside, the dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers...

Joe

 

[XTruth]

The Lord told the children of Israel to not destroy Esau because he is Jacob's brother. The Lord said that he had a place for Esau.

Judas and Esau being of the same spirit, God has a place for even this part of his family, but not serving with Jesus in the priestly ministration as testified in Revelation 5:9,10.

Only the priesthood of Jesus live in the city. They serve those on the outside, the dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers...

Joe

Rev.22:15 does not talk about those who are saved, it is the last warning against sin and eternal punishment. The same 3 classes you spoke of are listed as those whose portion is in the lake of fire (Rev.21:8). The righteousness of God who overcame the sin and desires of the flesh will not serve those that rebelled and whose portion is eternally in the lake of fire.

 

[follower of Christ]

Its not so much "loosing" it, as not walking IN it.

At any time, we can depart from our salvation. Its not God Who looses us, but we who walk away.

Well said.

Scripture proves that we cant 'lose' our salvation. I 'lose' my car keys.
"losing' something implies that it was against my will or knowledge and it is ridiculous to claim that I can 'lose' salvation against my will or without knowing it.
We can, however, CHOOSE to spit in the face of the gift Giver and throw the free gift back in His face.
>>Can man reject God/salvation?

 

[Joe67]

The Lord told the children of Israel to not destroy Esau because he is Jacob's brother. The Lord said that he had a place for Esau.

Judas and Esau being of the same spirit, God has a place for even this part of his family, but not serving with Jesus in the priestly ministration as testified in Revelation 5:9,10.

Only the priesthood of Jesus live in the city. They serve those on the outside, the dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers...

Joe

Rev.22:15 does not talk about those who are saved, it is the last warning against sin and eternal punishment. The same 3 classes you spoke of are listed as those whose portion is in the lake of fire (Rev.21:8). The righteousness of God who overcame the sin and desires of the flesh will not serve those that rebelled and whose portion is eternally in the lake of fire.

Xtruth,

The family of priests in Revelation 5:9,10 serve on the earth. They serve the nations who live outside the city who come to the city each new moon and each Sabbath. We are called to minister to the sinful and erring. Those outside of Christ need to be brought to be in Christ, to justified by Jesus' imputed righteousness.

Let us heap coals of fire on their head and overcome the evil by the good.

Joe

 

[XTruth]

Joe67,

Yes, I agree with you on that. We will be teaching and ruling and guiding the mortals through the Millennium reign. For those who don't know, there will be humans left alive by the end of the Tribulation and Jesus and the saints who are immortal (1 Cor.15:51-54) will come down from heaven (Rev.19:11-16)to rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years before God brings the holy city of the New Jerusalem and Himself to rule on earth, to set up His kingdom here on earth, forever. The mortal people left on earth at the Second Coming and are left alive (Mat.25:31-46), will populate the earth with other mortal humans (Isa.65:18-25).

Rev.5:9-10 is merely heavenly worship of the Lamb by the living creatures and elders. This does confirm that the redeemed (resurrected saints) will reign on the earth in the Millennium and in the New Earth (2 Pt.3:10-13) forever (Rev.5:10; Rev.2:26-27; 11:15; 20:4-10; 22:5; Dan.7:18). But during Rev.5:8-10, this period of time is right in between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation (Rev.4:1-6:1). This is happening before the Second Coming, no matter what you believe about the timing of the Rapture, which is at least 1,007 years before the New Jerusalem is even on earth (Rev.21-22).

This is why I won't let your statement about Rev.22:15 slide. Rev.21-22:5 is over 1,000 years after Rev.5 and much has happened in between. For example, during the time of the New Jerusalem, there are no unrighteous people on earth that still sin, that are dogs, whoremongers, or sorcerers (Rev.22:15). Rev.22:3 says there will be no more curse. Rev 20:11-15 has already taken care of the unrighteous beings. They are all gathered in one place forever, even as an eternal monument for all the righteous to see that rebellion against God's authority doesn't pay (Isa.66:22-24). Rev.22:6-21 is a conclusion of Revelation.

So I agree that the resurrected saints will guide, teach, and rule over the mortal humans for 1,000 years, but Rev.22:15 in no way means that there will be sinners outside of the New Jerusalem, but walking around the earth. The New Jerusalem is not here until after the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev.20:11-15...judgment) - (Rev.21-22...New Jerusalem). Rev.21:24 says all the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it (the holy city). All men in the New Earth will be saved from sin and be righteous eternally. The rebels will be destroyed, but the camp of the saints will remain (Rev.20:7-10).

You have the timing of the 1,000 year reign and the timing of when the Holy City comes overlapping eachother to be during the same time. That's all, no big deal I suppose. But if you want to teach it, you need to know the timings.