Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[BobRyan]

Indeed New Testament -- starts with the birth of John the baptizer - but the birth of John the baptizer is not the New Covenant. A common mistake is to equate new Testament with New Covenant.

The New Covenant is the ONE Gospel of all ages according to Heb chapter 8 and chapter 4.

In Gal 1:6-11 we are told there has been only ONE Gospel.

In Heb 4:1-2 The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also.

In Gal 3:7-8 the Gospel was preached to Abraham.

One Gopsel --

in Christ,

Bob

 

[duval]

Sence the book of Hebrews says a testament is not in force until the testator dies, how could John the Baptilst be the begining of the N.T.? John died before the cross. Gal.4:4 says that in the fulness of time God "---sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,". Jesus lived and died under the O.T. law and kept it perfectly.

 

[francisdesales]

There is a difference in testaments. We live under the new and not the old testament, Heb.8,9 and 10. A testament is a will and the new could not effect until the death of its testator and in this instance the testator is Christ. Only that which is carried over into the new is binding. What is left behind in the old is not. All of the original ten commandments exect ONE was carried over into the new, and in most cases were enlarged upon. Jesus said for example: "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in His heart" Matt.5:27,28, and so on in the 5th. chapter. Jesus went to the HEART of these matters and not simply the letter.

You are confusing the Old/New Testament with Old and New Covenants. Hebrews is not speaking about the Bible and the Old/New Testaments, but the promise of a new covenant, given by God in such places as Jeremiah 31.

And which of the original ten commandments are no longer binding? I do not remember the NT abrogating any of the Decalogue. Christ came to fulfill, not abrogate. The true meaning of the Torah is fulfilled in its presentation by our Lord's teachings, as you note on adultery.

Bob has correctly stated that the Gospel was preached from the beginning, albeit gradually and hidden until the fullness of time (Galatians). As the Church has said (with Augustine), the New Testament is hidden in the Old, and the meaning of the Old Testament is made known in the New. The teachings of the NT are largely found within the Pentaeuch. Those who lived by faith realized this, such as Abraham and David (see Romans 4 or better, Hebrews 11)

Regards

 

[duval]

Hebrews identifies the covenants and testaments as the same and Paul said Christ is the mediator of the new testament ( Heb.9:15, if Paul be the writer ). In II Cor. 3:6 Paul said he was an "able minister of the new testament--". The gospel was not preached in fullness and in fact until Acts 2.
Respectfully.

 

[francisdesales]

Hebrews identifies the covenants and testaments as the same and Paul said Christ is the mediator of the new testament ( Heb.9:15, if Paul be the writer ). In II Cor. 3:6 Paul said he was an "able minister of the new testament--". The gospel was not preached in fullness and in fact until Acts 2.
Respectfully.

Duval,

Yes, I understand that. But the "Testament" is not the "New" or "Old" Testament refering to OUR division of Sacred Scriptures. That is a later naming convention.

Furthermore, note your last sentence. You might as well admit this - the Gospels, which precede Acts 2, is found in the New Testament. Thus, the testament of Hebrews is not speaking of the division of Sacred Scriptures, but of Covenants being offered by God - the old have passed away - (not the OT!) - the old is a shadow of the good things to come. Naturally, this refers to the promise, not the Christian NT...

"Testaments" in Hebrews cannot refer to Scripture divisions, but to the Covenant offered by God to mankind, the new mediated by God's Only Begotten Son...

Regards

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews identifies the covenants and testaments as the same

Where?

Recall that a number of letters in the NT had not been written at the time of the letter to the Hebrews and none of those letters are ever called "the NT" by the first century bible writers as we call them today.


Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Sence the book of Hebrews says a testament is not in force until the testator dies, how could John the Baptilst be the begining of the N.T.? John died before the cross.

I am simply pointing to the fact that the New Testament - as a document - begins with the story of the birth of John.

Hebrews does not say that the New Testament did not begin until the death Christ.

Gal.4:4 says that in the fulness of time God "---sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,". Jesus lived and died under the O.T. law and kept it perfectly.

True - but Gal 4 never refers to anything as "the Old Testament".

Neither does any book in all of the New Testament refer to what we call the Old Testament - as the "Old Testament".

That is convention added much later.

"They studied the SCRIPTURES daily to see IF those things spoken to them by Paul were SO" Acts 17:11 -- that is the way what we now call "the OT" was used and referenced by NT writers.

Here is another time it is reference "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God AND is profitable for correction and doctrine" 2Tim 3:16

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Pogo]

Can true Christians lose their salvation?

Thirty-something pages of see-sawing back and forth, yet, it seems to me that not one person has convinced another of anything.

This amazes me!

I would be interested in the interpretations of others on what Paul meant when he said...

Titus 1:1-2 KJV
(1) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
(2) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

In my view, it seems to me that Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, Himself, is saying that even he doesn't see that his salvation is guaranteed.

Maybe the following passage, which I've posted in a, more easily understandable, modern day English version, will finally answer this question once and for all, for THOSE WHO ARE SINCERELY LOOKING...

1 Corinthians 5:1-13 God's Word (GW)
(1) Your own members are aware that there is sexual sin going on among them. This kind of sin is not even heard of among unbelievers-a man is actually married to his father's wife.
(2) You're being arrogant when you should have been more upset about this. If you had been upset, the man who did this would have been removed from among you.
(3) Although I'm not physically present with you, I am with you in spirit. I have already judged the man who did this as though I were present with you.
(4) When you have gathered together, I am with you in spirit. Then, in the name of our Lord Jesus, and with his power,
(5) hand such a person over to Satan to destroy his corrupt nature so that his spiritual nature may be saved on the day of the Lord.
(6) It's not good for you to brag. Don't you know that a little yeast spreads through the whole batch of dough?
(7) Remove the old yeast of sin so that you may be a new batch of dough, since you don't actually have the yeast of sin. Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
(8) So we must not celebrate our festival with the old yeast of sin or with the yeast of vice and wickedness. Instead, we must celebrate it with the bread of purity and truth that has no yeast.
(9) In my letter to you I told you not to associate with people who continue to commit sexual sins.
(10) I didn't tell you that you could not have any contact with unbelievers who commit sexual sins, are greedy, are dishonest, or worship false gods. If that were the case, you would have to leave this world.
(11) Now, what I meant was that you should not associate with people who call themselves brothers or sisters in the Christian faith but live in sexual sin, are greedy, worship false gods, use abusive language, get drunk, or are dishonest. Don't eat with such people.
(12) After all, do I have any business judging those who are outside the Christian faith? Isn't it your business to judge those who are inside?
(13) God will judge those who are outside. Remove that wicked man from among you.

May God bless us all,

Pogo

 

[duval]

Pogo I verily believe the scripture teaches one can so sin as to be lost. The Bible has many such passages stating such. But since you mentioned Paul I shall submit one he gave about himself:"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" 1 Cor.9:27.
For others reading this, regarding the terms testaments and covenants they are the same and both are from the same Greek ( koine ) word.---Best wishes, Duval

 

[Pogo]

Duval -

Thank you for truly contending for the faith!

Amen to every word of your post!

May God bless you and yours,

Pogo

 

[duval]

Bob Ryan wrote 8-13-8 at 7:26p
"Hebrews does not say that the New Terstament did not begin until the death of Christ." Not in the exact words you used, Bob, but it DOES read: "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth" Hebrews 9:15-17. It mentions "new testament" and "first testament." What made the "New" testament "New"? Because there was a "first" testament, of course, making the "first" testament "old" . If not, why not. And the Hebrew writer also said: "---He taketh away the first that he may establish the second." And Hebrews further states "In that he saith, a new covenant, he hath made the first old. ( please notice word OLD, emp. mine Duval ) Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" Heb.8:13. Need I go on??
God bless! Duval

 

[duval]

I got on this discussion long after it started and agree with Pogo that we are far removed from the intended topic. Perhaps to help us get back I shall offer one more ( of many ) that Christians can indeed lose their salvation. I call attention to Adam. In this case Adam was not what we might call a Christian today but he was: (1) A son of God,Lk.3:38. (2) Made in the image of God, Gen.1:26. (3) Transgressed God's law, Gen.3:3. (4) By Adam sin entered the world and death by sin, Rom.5:12.Adam was a child of God by creation. Now note the parallel Paul makes in IICor.11:3: Adam was a child of God by creation. The Corinthians were children of God by regeneration. Adam and Eve fell thru the influence of Satan. The Corinthians stood in jeopardy of being corrupted thru the influence of Satan---Thus the Bible teaching that one can be lost after becoming a child of God begins early in scripture
God bless, Duval

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan wrote 8-13-8 at 7:26p
"Hebrews does not say that the New Terstament did not begin until the death of Christ."

Not in the exact words you used, Bob, but it DOES read: "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth" Hebrews 9:15-17.

The problem is that there is only one Gospel in all of time -- preached in both OT and NT -- and that is the New Covenant.

Gal 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Gal 3
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "" ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.

There is no "Old Covenant" or system of LAW able to save. The Law given at Sinai does not invalidate the Gospel Covenant given to Abraham.

The One Gospel in all of time!

17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, u]does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham [by means of a promise[/u].

Heb 4

1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news (Gospel) preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

“New Covenantâ€Â

IN the OLD Testament –

When Jeremiah quotes it - he speaks to rebellious Israel - of a time when they will once again return to god and enter the gospel relationship they had been in - in former days.


Jer 31:
31 "behold, the days are coming, says the lord, when ]I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 "but this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

No Wonder The OT has the New Covenant - (the ONE Gospel) in it.


NT and the New Covenant

Hebrews tells us that this is the one covenant with forgiveness of sins and salvation.

Heb 8:
7for if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 for finding fault with them, he says, “behold, days are coming, says the lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; ...
10 “for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of israel after those days, says the lord: I will put My laws into their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
11 “and they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen, and everyone his brother, saying, ‘know the lord,’ for all will know me, from the least to the greatest of them.
12 “for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.â€Â

Duval
It mentions "new testament" and "first testament." What made the "New" testament "New"? Because there was a "first" testament, of course, making the "first" testament "old" .

Ok - first lets look at terminology vs translations. Does your translation use the term "Testament" in Jer 31:33? How about in Heb 8:8 where we see Jer 31:33 quoted verbatim?

Certainly we can agree that what we call the New Testament (Matthew through Rev) is not what your Bible is talking about when it says "New Testament" -- correct?

Duval
If not, why not. And the Hebrew writer also said: "---He taketh away the first that he may establish the second." And Hebrews further states "In that he saith, a new covenant, he hath made the first old. ( please notice word OLD, emp. mine Duval ) Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away" Heb.8:13. Need I go on??
God bless! Duval

The "Old Covenant" is never said to be "the Gospel" -- because there is only one.

The "Old Covenant" in 2Cor 3 is the "Covenant of death" it does not save - it does not redeem.

In Gal 3 we are told that no law was ever given capable of giving life --

21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

There is no "Old Covenant" or system of LAW able to save. The Law given at Sinai does not invalidate the Gospel Covenant given to Abraham.

The One Gospel in all of time!

In Heb the "Old Covenant" is simply a reference to the Sanctuary service of the OT (a form of worship liturgy) as we see in Heb 9:1-4 it is not a reference to a competing means of salvation to the Gospel or as we also call it "The New Covenant".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pogo]

Hello, everyone -

While doing research on a related topic in another thread today, a simple word/phrase search turned up the following passage below...

Romans 3:25 KJV
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I would be interested to know how others here interpret this passage as it relates to the subject of this thread!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[duval]

Bob--
We may need some definition of words. otherwise it seems we are on the same page. The gospel of the OT was preached IN PROMISE, In the NT it became no longer promise but FACT. I once heard someone put it this way: In the OT the theme is SOMEONE IS COMING! In Matthew Mark, Luke and John the theme is: SOMEONE HAS COME! And through out the rest of the Bible the theme is: SOMEONE IS COING AGAIN! That someone is CHRIST!
Best thkoughts, Duval.

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed -- the OT calls the saints to embrace the promise of a comming savior. In the NT the saints are called to believe in a savior that came, died and rose again and is seated at the right hand of God as our high priest providing forgiveness and mediation between God and man.

Pre-cross - Christ said to many "your sins are forgiven".

Pre-cross - we have Elijah and Enoch taken to heaven without dying.

Pre-cross - we have Moses and Elijah standing in glorified form - in fellowship with Christ who is transfigured into His glorified form speaking to them in Matt 17 about his future sacrifice and departure.

Pre-cross - we have the born-again new-creation saints of Heb 11 - the giants of faith held up as examples for the NT saints.

It is one Gospel solution for sin (by grace through faith -- providing both forgiveness and the new birth) both OT and NT.

But we have two different liturgies -- the Old one based on animal sacrifices and an earthly priesthood engaged in symbols and shadows -- predictive laws pointing forward to the work of the Messiah. Vs the NT liturgy of the Lord's Table that replaces Passover - pointing in "memorial" to the sacrifice of Christ "do this in remembrance of me" and "as often as you do this you do show the Lord's death till He comes"".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hello, everyone -

While doing research on a related topic in another thread today, a simple word/phrase search turned up the following passage below...

Romans 3:25 KJV
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I would be interested to know how others here interpret this passage as it relates to the subject of this thread!

In Christ,

Pogo

The Greek Word in Rom 3:25 and Rom 2:2 translated "propitiation" in some Bible's is also translated "Atoning Sacrifice" in the NIV.

The NIV is probably right given the fact that the LXX (septuagint) translates the same word in Ezek 45 and in Lev 16 as "Sin offering" and "Mercy Seat" Respectively.

Ezek 44:27 – Septuagint “Sin Offering†(Strongs 2434 root word: Hilasmos
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible ... ng=3&ncc=3
Ezek 44:27
"On the day that he goes into the sanctuary, into the inner court to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering," declares the Lord GOD.
kai h an hmera eisporeuwntai eiv thn aulhn thn eswteran tou leitourgein en tw agiw prosoisousin ilasmon legei kuriov o qeov

Ilasmon link –
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/v ... umber=2434


Ezek 45:20 “Make Atonement†(strongs 2433 (middle voice of 2436): Hilaskomai
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible ... =45&ncc=45

45:20
"Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goes astray or is naive; so you shall make atonement for the house.

[quote:afcde]
kai outwv poihseiv en tw ebdomw mhni mia tou mhnov lhmyh par' ekastou apomoiran kai ecilasesqe ton oikon

Lev 16 “Mercy Seatâ€Â
16:2
The LORD said to Moses: "T ell your brother Aaron that he shall not enter at any time into the holy place inside * the veil, before * the mercy seat which is on the ark, or he will die; for I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat.

kai eipen kuriov prov Mwushn lalhson prov Aarwn ton adelfon sou kai mh eisporeuesqw pasan wran eiv to agion eswteron tou katapetasmatov eiv proswpon tou ilasthriou o estin epi thv kibwtou tou marturiou kai ouk apoqaneitai en gar nefelh ofqhsomai epi tou ilasthriou

[/quote:afcde]

In Greek culture the term for "propitiation" carried the idea of an animal or human sacrifice offerred to "appease" the angry deity - to turn away his wrath against helpless humans.

But in the Gospel of the Bible we have the competing idea of substitutionary atonement where "God so LOVES that HE GIVES HIS own Son to suffer FOR US". It is the LOVE of God that is first and foremost -- the first cause. It is not Christ agreeing to stand up and be tortured by the angry deity to divert his anger from us -- as in the Greek model of propitiation -- where "the angry god is appeased".

------------------------------------------------------

Having said that - God now has the right to apply that sacrifice as He chooses -- and He chooses to make it conditional upon confession and repentance "IF we confess our sins HE IS faithful and just to FORGIVE us". 1John 1:9

He "chooses" to make it conditional on "opening the door" -- "Behold I stand at the door and knock IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS THE DOOR I will come in " Rev 3:21.

He "chooses" that retaining that forgiveness be conditional on "perseverance in forgiveness" as we see in Matt 18 "I FORGAVE you ALL that debt -- you should likewise have forgiven others".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[duval]

He also makes the application of the blood sacrifice of Jesus on baptism as well as hearing the gospel, believing it, repenting of sin and confessing ones faith in Christ. Finally there is to be a walking in the light as He is in the light and being faithful unto death. Surely I need not cite scriptures for the above, seems that you all know them.---Duval

 

[Pogo]

BobRyan and duval -

WELL SAID!!!

And, AMEN!

Pogo

 

[3rddayuprising]

Jesus being my Lord, I like to believe and hold to what He says! Christian leaders may say different, theologians, Bible colleges...may all say different, BUT what Jesus says means everything to me. He says in John 6:37-40 that "All that the Father giveth Me SHALL COME TO ME; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out."

Then He goes on to say, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given to Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." Can you imagine Jesus failing in fulfilling the Father's will? NOT!

In verse 44 of John 6 Jesus says, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

That's good enough for me. Do I believe in the "eternal security" of the believer?...ABSOLUTELY! To lose one of His own, would be like losing a part of Himself! He redeems all of His true seed to Himself. Those that were in Him before the foundation of the world.