Can you lose your salvation?

[for_his_glory]

The kingdom of heaven is not the same as the kingdom of God. The kingdom of heaven is the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven.

What is the difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven?

Question: "What is the difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven?"

Answer: While some believe that the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven are referring to different things, it is clear that both phrases are referring to the same thing. The phrase “kingdom of God” occurs 68 times in 10 different New Testament books, while “kingdom of heaven” occurs only 32 times, and only in the Gospel of Matthew. In response to this, some interpreters have come to the conclusion, with the understanding of the Jewish nature of the Gospel of Matthew, that Matthew was writing concerning the millennial kingdom while the other New Testament authors were referring to the universal kingdom. However, a study of the use of the phrase reveals that this interpretation is in error.

For example, in the story of the rich young ruler in Matthew 19:16-24, Christ uses “kingdom of heaven” to speak of the spiritual kingdom. “Then Jesus said to his disciples, ‘I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven’” (v. 23). In the very next verse, Christ proclaims, “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” So, in answer to the rich young ruler’s question concerning eternal life (v. 16), Christ uses the phrases “kingdom of God” and “kingdom of heaven” interchangeably.

Mark and Luke used “kingdom of God” where Matthew used “kingdom of heaven” quite frequently. In the same parable, the authors used different words, indicating that the two are referring to the same thing. Compare Matthew 11:11-12 with Luke 7:28; Matthew 13:11 with Mark 4:11 and Luke 8:10; Matthew 13:24 with Mark 4:26; Matthew 13:31 with Mark 4:30 and Luke 13:18; Matthew 13:33 with Luke 13:20; Matthew 18:3 with Mark 10:14 and Luke 18:16; and Matthew 22:2 with Luke 13:29. In each of these instances, Matthew used the phrase “kingdom of heaven” while Mark and/or Luke used “kingdom of God.” Clearly, the two phrases are interchangeable because they refer to the same thing, Kingdom of God described.

1Ch 29:11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all. 12 Both riches and honor come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all.

Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

Dan 4:3 How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (note foundation of the world)

Luk 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (note Jesus is the kingdom of God on earth)
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (note this one)

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Special feature of:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Entrance into:

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (?)

1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

Members of:

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Col 4:11 And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellow workers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.

Nature of:

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ( growth in Christ)

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
I will just state this in general as I don't remember who quoted it.

The children of Israel were a kingdom. Yes they were occupied by Rome. But as we read in Matthew 1, the lineage falls directly to Joseph the earthly father of Jesus. Except for the curse upon Jeconias, Joseph would be king. It is through Joseph that Jesus got His legal claim to be King of the Jews. (Through Mary He received his birthright to be king.)

I do not believe there is any sin I can commit that will cause me to lose my salvation. If I walk away and never return, then it is fair to question if I was saved. The prodigal son was still the man's son.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

So John tells us that the saved show their salvation by their continuing identity with the fellowship. The ones who left were never of us. They never received salvation.
Keep walking everybody. May God bless,
Taz

 

[gordon777]

There is no biblical ground, of course, for this notion of "salvation." The Church does not save but is the family of those who are saved. A denomination has no salvific power, either; there being no scriptural ground whatever for such an idea. I'm not saying you've asserted otherwise, only pointing out that there is salvation in no other but Christ.



1 John 2:19 doesn't speak of salvation, though, but of those who reveal by their departure from the Christian community that they "were not of us." I'm not sure, then, what sort of definition of salvation you're trying to derive from the verse... John only described the nominal Christian, the false convert described in Hebrews 6:4-8.



2 Corinthians 13:5-6
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test.

I don't see a definition of salvation given in these verses... Paul says only that there is a means of testing whether one is truly in the faith or not, but he doesn't describe what salvation itself is in this couplet of verses.

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Upon what are all the benefits and blessings of the Christian life predicated? Upon what is the believer's fellowship with God anchored? Faith (2 Corinthians 5:7; Hebrews 4:2; Hebrews 11:6). The only way to enter fully and deeply into the "abundant life" that God offers to us in Jesus Christ (John 10:9-11) is to do so by faith. But, again, there is no definition of salvation offered in this passage, only a promise and a warning.

1 Timothy 4:1
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

As the apostle John pointed out, "They went out from us because they were not of us." The Early Church had "false brethren" in it, as Paul indicated (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4), folk who either mistakenly thought they were in the faith (Matthew 7:21-23), or wolves in sheeps' clothing who had no interest in Christ but were keenly interested in making merchandise of the Christian community (2 Peter 2:3; Acts 20:28-30). It is no surprise, then, to read of some "departing from the faith." It may have been, though, that they did so, not by leaving the community of believers, but simply by adopting false teachings of "deceitful spirits and demons" while remaining within the Church community. Think: the "Judaizers" of the letter to the Galatians, for example. In any case, Paul's remarks to Timothy in the verse above don't necessarily describe a genuinely-saved person losing their salvation, nor do they define salvation itself.


Revelation 3:5
5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

On what basis does any person "conquer" in the sense meant in this verse? By the power of the Holy Spirit. If one is not "conquering" spiritually, one is either not saved, or has allowed sin to interfere with walking in the Spirit (Galatians 5:16; 25). In either case, the verse above offers a promise, not a warning: Those who "conquer" - that is, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit - will never be blotted out of the Book of Life. Such people Christ will confess before the Father and the angels. This verse from John's Revelation seems to me, then, to secure the idea of the eternal security of the born-again person, not dissolve it. Here, too, though, I don't see a proper description of salvation, only a common proof-text for those promoting the fear-mongering idea of works-salvation (which isn't necessarily what you're doing, though).



Amen. Hebrews 13:5, Romans 8:31-39, John 10:27-29.



I don't think you've actually shown this - at least, not from Scripture.



As one who subscribes to OSAS, these are, in my view, essentially one-and-the-same thing.



Nope. My salvation is not my doing, but God's. He has saved me and what He has done I cannot undo.

Jesus obeyed the Father, then we assume you mean obeying God the same way, to not lose a salvation that is Jesus Christ, as Apostle Paul did, and even said this..

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[gordon777]

When one is baptized into the body of Christ they can never un-baptize themselves to their former unsaved condition.
The Promise of God is as follows:

"I will never leave you nor forsake thee"

And:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Jn 10:28.

Do you accept God's Word as written or do you like to ignore it and add your own words in commentary form to contradict God?

The teaching begins in Isaiah 49, and it is in response to the lack of faith of Israel, ( who entered not in because of unbelief.)

God assures all that even though they feel the Lord has forsaken them, God answers how a woman may do that to her child, but God does not.

Hebrews 13 tells the same reasoning, the reason for us to be faithful, and not be coveteous, but to be content, ( trusting in the Lord) is because of how the Lord had answered, even though we unfaithfully may think God has forsaken us, we are to remember the assurance of faith, that He does not. ( and have more faith than Israel, who did not enter because of UNBELIEF.)


Isaiah 49:13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.


Philippians 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.



What blindness to give one verses and not even show what they say also.

Jesus gives eternal life, so they never perish, or be plucked out of His hand.

Jesus had to accomplish that, to be able to give it, and likewise, we have to accomplish the overcoming He did, ( to accomplish it) to also accomplish what He had to do.



John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[gordon777]

Vinny37

You Said: With Christian salvation (Jhn.3:3), anyone who at their core has an inclination towards God, can, if confronted with the true gospel, come into the church, become a Christian."

My Response: No one has an "inclination towards God" as Jesus taught in His Words:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light [CHRIST] is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light [CHRIST], because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light [CHRIST], neither cometh to the light [CHRIST], lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jn 3:19–20.

And Paul understands and says the same thing:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom. 3:11.

Men hate God and His Crist and do not seek God and definitely have no inclination to do so. Unless God makes the first move in any life they are born to die without God.

None sought God, so God came to them, you ought to open up your limited verses you quote.

read below even for you to understand, that this tells us how Christ the great Shepherd of the sheep found them, how He delivers them, and how they are kept. ( also you might know, if you dispute with me, I will answer all too easily every dispute you can make.)



Ezekiel 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

 

[gordon777]

Did anyone NOTICE, with me, that to as many as the Lord shall call, is how we all were called. ( to follow the example the Shepherd of the sheep left us.) We also can know who consider themselves NOT CALLED, as thy do not follow the example of Christ. ( they declare they are not HIs sheep therefore.)


"Unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

"Here unto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps."




Hebrews 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Knowing the doctrinal difference between the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" is the key to understanding the complete time line of Biblical history past, present, and future, the proper place of the Church and the prophetic future of Israel.

The Bible is about the struggle for a Kingdom; the Kingdom of Heaven, a Kingdom with its Capital City (Jerusalem) on this Earth. Israel rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah when He first came because the religious rulers of Israel were only looking for a political Messiah King who would make Israel the ruling kingdom of the world. (Jeremiah 23:5, Psalms 48:2). They were expecting a warrior leader who would deliver them militarily from the Romans and the rest of the heathen. They were expecting carnal deliverance. Because of their hardened hearts, and their legalistic and ritualistic zeal for works, they were blind to their need for spiritual deliverance and the true righteousness of God, which must be born into the heart. That is what led them to ask this of Jesus:

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
(Luke 17:20-21 KJV)

In that statement, Jesus was declaring a spiritual truth that Israel did not see. But on another occasion, when asked about His Kingdom by Pontius Pilate, He gave a somewhat different answer:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

In this particular passage the word "now" is not speaking about the spiritual Kingdom of God (within the heart of the redeemed), but of a literal political Kingdom yet to come on this Earth. You should also take note that the word "now" has been removed from many newer Bible translations (NASB, AMP, NLT, ESV, CEV). The reason is because most of the translators of today's "Bibles" are Amillennial in their position on prophecy. In other words, they do not accept the literal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to reign on the Earth for a thousand years, as foretold in Chapter 20 of the book of Revelation.

Although that truth is rejected by a major portion of "Christianity" today, His Jewish disciples knew what He was speaking of and they pointedly asked when the literal Kingdom would come:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
(Acts 1:6-8 KJV)

The disciples were clearly asking about a literal Kingdom, and the Lord says it is not for them to know the time when that literal Kingdom (the Kingdom of Heaven) will take place. Until that time the disciples were given power to preach the Kingdom of God; righteousness through faith in the atoning work of the risen Savior who will one day return and rule over the whole Earth from Jerusalem.

This is one of the most hated and least understood doctrines of the Bible, yet one of the most important in rightly dividing the truth; the separation of Church Age doctrine from Tribulation doctrine. Some churches do not want to hear this, because they think that the Church has replaced Israel. Certainly the whole world reviles at the prospect of hated Israel becoming the head of the Kingdoms. There is a hatred of Christians and Jews on a spiritual level that is beyond the unsaved world's comprehension. Satan hates the Jews, and this present evil world (see Galatians 1:4) is under Satan's spiritual control. Hate and envy are the root reasons the word "now" is removed from John 18:36 in some translations. The unsaved world does not want the Lord Jesus Christ to return and rule over them. That is why the religious Jews killed their King the first time He came. Here is what their King will say about that when He returns:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me."
(Luke 19:27 KJV)

There will be a big attitude difference between the Lord's first coming as the gentle Lamb of God and His Second Coming as the warrior King, the Lion of Judah:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."
(Revelation 19:11-13 KJV)

The Lord Jesus Christ came to His own and preached a dualistic message: To the Jews, the heirs of the promised political Kingdom, the Lord preached the Gospel of the "Kingdom of Heaven" - a literal physical Kingdom soon to come:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
(Matt. 4:17 KJV)

To the Jews and the entire Gentile world, He preached the coming "Kingdom of God" - righteousness and holiness in Christ:

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."
(Mark 1:14 KJV)

Because the Lord used the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" interchangeably in places in the four Gospels, most Christians think they are one and the same. They will be, but not until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when He rules the world for a thousand years on the throne of His father David (In the flesh, Jesus was in the bloodline of King David; in His Deity, Jesus was begotten by the bloodline of God the Father).

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

If you rightly divide the Bible, you will see that Jesus was preaching about two (2) components of the Kingdom. He preached that the political kingdom (Kingdom of Heaven) was coming, and if the Jews had accepted Him after His death and resurrection, He would have come back and established it after seven years of tribulation, as foretold in the prophecies:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
(Daniel 9:24-27 KJV)

Remember, the story of the whole Bible from the very beginning until the end is about the spiritual battle for the Kingdom. The eventual triumphant ruler of that Kingdom, both in the literal world and over the spiritual forces, will be the KING of KINGS, the Lord Jesus Christ; the Son of the Living God of Israel, who first came as a Lamb but will soon return as the Lion of tribe of Judah.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Knowing the doctrinal difference between the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" is the key to understanding the complete time line of Biblical history past, present, and future, the proper place of the Church and the prophetic future of Israel.

The Bible is about the struggle for a Kingdom; the Kingdom of Heaven, a Kingdom with its Capital City (Jerusalem) on this Earth. Israel rejected the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah when He first came because the religious rulers of Israel were only looking for a political Messiah King who would make Israel the ruling kingdom of the world. (See Jeremiah 23:5, Psalms 48:2). They were expecting a warrior leader who would deliver them militarily from the Romans and the rest of the heathen. They were expecting carnal deliverance. Because of their hardened hearts, and their legalistic and ritualistic zeal for works, they were blind to their need for spiritual deliverance and the true righteousness of God, which must be born into the heart. That is what led them to ask this of Jesus:

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
(Luke 17:20-21 KJV)

In that statement, Jesus was declaring a spiritual truth that Israel did not see. But on another occasion, when asked about His Kingdom by Pontius Pilate, He gave a somewhat different answer:

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

In this particular passage the word "now" is not speaking about the spiritual Kingdom of God (within the heart of the redeemed), but of a literal political Kingdom yet to come on this Earth. You should also take note that the word "now" has been removed from many newer Bible translations (NASB, AMP, NLT, ESV, CEV). The reason is because most of the translators of today's "Bibles" are Amillennial in their position on prophecy. In other words, they do not accept the literal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to reign on the Earth for a thousand years, as foretold in Chapter 20 of the book of Revelation.

Although that truth is rejected by a major portion of "Christianity" today, His Jewish disciples knew what He was speaking of and they pointedly asked when the literal Kingdom would come:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
(Acts 1:6-8 KJV)

The disciples were clearly asking about a literal Kingdom, and the Lord says it is not for them to know the time when that literal Kingdom (the Kingdom of Heaven) will take place. Until that time the disciples were given power to preach the Kingdom of God; righteousness through faith in the atoning work of the risen Savior who will one day return and rule over the whole Earth from Jerusalem.

This is one of the most hated and least understood doctrines of the Bible, yet one of the most important in rightly dividing the truth; the separation of Church Age doctrine from Tribulation doctrine. Some churches do not want to hear this, because they think that the Church has replaced Israel. Certainly the whole world reviles at the prospect of hated Israel becoming the head of the Kingdoms. There is a hatred of Christians and Jews on a spiritual level that is beyond the unsaved world's comprehension. Satan hates the Jews, and this present evil world (see Galatians 1:4) is under Satan's spiritual control. Hate and envy are the root reasons the word "now" is removed from John 18:36 in some translations. The unsaved world does not want the Lord Jesus Christ to return and rule over them. That is why the religious Jews killed their King the first time He came. Here is what their King will say about that when He returns:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me."
(Luke 19:27 KJV)

There will be a big attitude difference between the Lord's first coming as the gentle Lamb of God and His Second Coming as the warrior King, the Lion of Judah:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God."
(Revelation 19:11-13 KJV)

The Lord Jesus Christ came to His own and preached a dualistic message: To the Jews, the heirs of the promised political Kingdom, the Lord preached the Gospel of the "Kingdom of Heaven" - a literal physical Kingdom soon to come:

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
(Matt. 4:17 KJV)

To the Jews and the entire Gentile world, He preached the coming "Kingdom of God" - righteousness and holiness in Christ:

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."
(Mark 1:14 KJV)

Because the Lord used the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God" interchangeably in places in the four Gospels, most Christians think they are one and the same. They will be, but not until the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when He rules the world for a thousand years on the throne of His father David (In the flesh, Jesus was in the bloodline of King David; in His Deity, Jesus was begotten by the bloodline of God the Father).

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."
(John 18:36 KJV)

If you rightly divide the Bible, you will see that Jesus was preaching about two (2) components of the Kingdom. He preached that the political kingdom (Kingdom of Heaven) was coming, and if the Jews had accepted Him after His death and resurrection, He would have come back and established it after seven years of tribulation, as foretold in the prophecies:

To show by the Scriptures the difference between the terms "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Kingdom of God," the Holy Spirit has put this little nugget of truth within the Gospel of Matthew:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."
(Matt. 11:12 KJV)

Ask yourself this question: If the "Kingdom of God" is within you, and if the "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of Heaven" are one and the same, how could anyone take it out of you by violence? And if that righteousness (i.e. the Kingdom of God within you), could not possibly be there until after the cross and the resurrection, what is Jesus saying to the Jews here BEFORE the cross and the resurrection? The answer is the Kingdom of Israel, which is God's people and Jerusalem, the Lord's chosen place from which He will one day rule.

Remember, the story of the whole Bible from the very beginning until the end is about the spiritual battle for the Kingdom. The eventual triumphant ruler of that Kingdom, both in the literal world and over the spiritual forces, will be the KING of KINGS, the Lord Jesus Christ; the Son of the Living God of Israel, who first came as a Lamb but will soon return as the Lion of tribe of Judah.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The teaching begins in Isaiah 49, and it is in response to the lack of faith of Israel, ( who entered not in because of unbelief.)
God assures all that even though they feel the Lord has forsaken them, God answers how a woman may do that to her child, but God does not.

Belief or unbelief God still has promises to keep towards His Bride Israel.

Hebrews 13 tells the same reasoning, the reason for us to be faithful, and not be coveteous, but to be content, ( trusting in the Lord) is because of how the Lord had answered, even though we unfaithfully may think God has forsaken us, we are to remember the assurance of faith, that He does not. ( and have more faith than Israel, who did not enter because of UNBELIEF.)

God is faithful and will keep every promise in covenant He's made with His Bride Israel.

Isaiah 49:13 Sing, O heavens;

The heavens not only reveal the Gospel of God in the stars but the heavens also sing those praises.

and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

God is faithful and will keep every promise made to His Bride Israel.

Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

God made that promise to Israel to never leave nor forsake His Beloved Bride Israel.

Philippians 4:11 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
What blindness to give one verses and not even show what they say also.
Jesus gives eternal life, so they never perish, or be plucked out of His hand.

And the promise is to God's Bride Israel with Gentiles grafted in after the fact.

Jesus had to accomplish that, to be able to give it, and likewise, we have to accomplish the overcoming He did, ( to accomplish it) to also accomplish what He had to do.

Yes, and He accomplished it all for His Bride Israel for God is faithful and will never leave nor forsake His Bride Israel.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Speaking to Israel to whom promise is made.

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Read it in this context and not as a Gentile and don't bastardize the interpretation and understanding by substituting Israel for Gentiles - which is what Gentile Christians do today.

The whole of Scripture is written to the people of Israel in covenant with God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

None sought God, so God came to them, you ought to open up your limited verses you quote.
read below even for you to understand, that this tells us how Christ the great Shepherd of the sheep found them, how He delivers them, and how they are kept. ( also you might know, if you dispute with me, I will answer all too easily every dispute you can make.)
Ezekiel 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

Ezekiel writes to covenant Israel and Israel is the Lord's sheep on 1000 hills.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Speaking to Israel who stumbled at the fact that their Messiah 'hung on a cross' and which their Scripture says anyone who hangs on a cross is cursed so that's why they have a hard time accepting Christ the first time. But they will receive Him before He comes to them and to sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

A stumbling block.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Peter, one of the apostles to the Jews writes to the Jews in his two epistles.

 

[Vinny37]

Vinny37

You Said: With Christian salvation (Jhn.3:3), anyone who at their core has an inclination towards God, can, if confronted with the true gospel, come into the church, become a Christian."

My Response: No one has an "inclination towards God" as Jesus taught in His Words:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light [CHRIST] is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light [CHRIST], because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light [CHRIST], neither cometh to the light [CHRIST], lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jn 3:19–20.

And Paul understands and says the same thing:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom. 3:11.

Men hate God and His Crist and do not seek God and definitely have no inclination to do so. Unless God makes the first move in any life they are born to die without God.

Jhn.3:20 seems to me a foil to those of v19. For some, agapē-love is in the wrong direction; for some it is in the right direction. But how many dyed in the wool sinners, have repented towards God, overcoming their perverse love for evil and hatred of God? Jhn.3:19 covers a first encounter—some fail to repent. It does mean that some might later do so, and Mt.27:44 gave way to such—Lk.23:40. I would take subsequent encounter-repentance, to show preexisting core desire for God; you, I deem, would not.

It is easy to miss the trees for the wood. Similarly a generalisation in Jhn.1:11 is followed by an exception in v12: some of his own did receive him. V11 can be proof-texted to say otherwise. Scripture has many generalisations which can seem to be absolutes, yet are not. That’s something brought out by Remnant Theology.

Rm.3:11 utilises hyperboles from Ps.14. When one looks at people such as righteous Abel, at Abraham, friend of God, at David after God’s own heart, one can see another generalisation in v3, which Paul—having already noted how some follow God’s inner law—simply used.

We can rejoice in the biblical truth that “they entered into a covenant to seek [Yahweh, the god] of their ancestors, with all their heart and soul” (NIV: 2 Chr.15:12—adjusted; 2 Chr.19:3, Ps.24:6, etc).

At the end of the day I doubt very much that we are likely to agree on this point.

Incidentally many, not simply men but women and children too, do not seek God and definitely have no inclination to do so.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jhn.3:20 seems to me a foil to those of v19. For some, agapē-love is in the wrong direction; for some it is in the right direction. But how many dyed in the wool sinners, have repented towards God, overcoming their perverse love for evil and hatred of God? Jhn.3:19 covers a first encounter—some fail to repent. It does mean that some might later do so, and Mt.27:44 gave way to such—Lk.23:40. I would take subsequent encounter-repentance, to show preexisting core desire for God; you, I deem, would not.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Notice God says they are "condemned already" meaning God is Immutable and does not change. People are not "condemned already" and then God changes His Mind and then saves them. They are "condemned [already]." This is the election of God to actively save some/many and not others for salvation is of the LORD, not man.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Everyone's deeds are evil because of their sin nature they are bound in. They are servants of sin. God saves some making them 'free indeed' and leaves the rest in their sinful condition. Men do not seek God. They hate God [the Light] because they want to do all their sin under cover of secrecy and darkness. No one wants to be shown they are sinner and in the 'heart' of man they know there is a God but don't want to worship Him as God. So, we need a stronger man to come to bind the strong man [sin, not Satan] and take away 'his' goods (God's elect.)
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
As above.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
No one doeth truth. Let God be true but all man liars, right? Bondage of sin to sin in every conceivable capacity.
Jn 3:18–21.

It is easy to miss the trees for the wood. Similarly a generalisation in Jhn.1:11 is followed by an exception in v12: some of his own did receive him. V11 can be proof-texted to say otherwise. Scripture has many generalisations which can seem to be absolutes, yet are not. That’s something brought out by Remnant Theology.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1:10–13.

You do agree "His own" are His covenant people and Bride Israel?

Rm.3:11 utilises hyperboles from Ps.14. When one looks at people such as righteous Abel, at Abraham, friend of God, at David after God’s own heart, one can see another generalisation in v3, which Paul—having already noted how some follow God’s inner law—simply used.
We can rejoice in the biblical truth that “they entered into a covenant to seek [Yahweh, the god] of their ancestors, with all their heart and soul” (NIV: 2 Chr.15:12—adjusted; 2 Chr.19:3, Ps.24:6, etc).

These people are already in covenant.

At the end of the day I doubt very much that we are likely to agree on this point.
Incidentally many, not simply men but women and children too, do not seek God and definitely have no inclination to do so.

I agree.

 

[Vinny37]

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Notice God says they are "condemned already" meaning God is Immutable and does not change. People are not "condemned already" and then God changes His Mind and then saves them. They are "condemned [already]." This is the election of God to actively save some/many and not others for salvation is of the LORD, not man.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Everyone's deeds are evil because of their sin nature they are bound in. They are servants of sin. God saves some making them 'free indeed' and leaves the rest in their sinful condition. Men do not seek God. They hate God [the Light] because they want to do all their sin under cover of secrecy and darkness. No one wants to be shown they are sinner and in the 'heart' of man they know there is a God but don't want to worship Him as God. So, we need a stronger man to come to bind the strong man [sin, not Satan] and take away 'his' goods (God's elect.)
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
As above.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
No one doeth truth. Let God be true but all man liars, right? Bondage of sin to sin in every conceivable capacity.
Jn 3:18–21.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1:10–13.

You do agree "His own" are His covenant people and Bride Israel?

These people are already in covenant.

I agree.

You are not exactly engaging with my points. For instance you say nothing about the formal contradiction between none seeking God (Rm.3:11), and those seeking God (2 Chr.15:12; 19:3; Ps.24:6). We are likely to both spend needless time & effort in vain.

Just a quickie though on your fresh Q apropos Jhn.1:11. I would not agree that it is about God’s covenant people, and the term Bride, under Sinai, tended to have moved to Adulterous Wife, or even ex-wife after divorce (Jr.3:8). I would agree that it was about God’s covenant people at that time. My point was that a generalisation was linked to an exception, and it's good hermeneutics to be aware of such hyperbole.

I did wonder whether you would twig to my pun about your men-only citations/wording, q.v. Don Carson’s Inclusive Language Debate (https://byfaithweunderstand.com/2021/05/09/review-the-inclusive-language-debate-by-d-a-carson/).

 

[jeremiah1five]

You are not exactly engaging with my points. For instance you say nothing about the formal contradiction between none seeking God (Rm.3:11), and those seeking God (2 Chr.15:12; 19:3; Ps.24:6). We are likely to both spend needless time & effort in vain.

One doesn't seek something one already possesses. Israel is already in covenant with God and has relationship as His Bride.

Just a quickie though on your fresh Q apropos Jhn.1:11. I would not agree that it is about God’s covenant people, and the term Bride, under Sinai, tended to have moved to Adulterous Wife, or even ex-wife after divorce (Jr.3:8). I would agree that it was about God’s covenant people at that time. My point was that a generalisation was linked to an exception, and it's good hermeneutics to be aware of such hyperbole.

I did wonder whether you would twig to my pun about your men-only citations/wording, q.v. Don Carson’s Inclusive Language Debate (https://byfaithweunderstand.com/2021/05/09/review-the-inclusive-language-debate-by-d-a-carson/).

 

[gordon777]

Belief or unbelief God still has promises to keep towards His Bride Israel.

God is faithful and will keep every promise in covenant He's made with His Bride Israel.

The heavens not only reveal the Gospel of God in the stars but the heavens also sing those praises.

God is faithful and will keep every promise made to His Bride Israel.

God made that promise to Israel to never leave nor forsake His Beloved Bride Israel.

And the promise is to God's Bride Israel with Gentiles grafted in after the fact.

Yes, and He accomplished it all for His Bride Israel for God is faithful and will never leave nor forsake His Bride Israel.

Speaking to Israel to whom promise is made.

The whole of Scripture is written to the people of Israel in covenant with God.

Yes lets see how the marriage works.

God does not forsake, but they do sometimes. ( return to folly, their folly manifest to all men, the dog returns to its vomit, the sow washes then wallows in the mire/better to have not known the way of righteousness, than to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them..)




Psalm 85:8 I will hear what God the Lord will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.

Hosea 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[gordon777]

Ezekiel writes to covenant Israel and Israel is the Lord's sheep on 1000 hills.

Speaking to Israel who stumbled at the fact that their Messiah 'hung on a cross' and which their Scripture says anyone who hangs on a cross is cursed so that's why they have a hard time accepting Christ the first time. But they will receive Him before He comes to them and to sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem.

A stumbling block.

Peter, one of the apostles to the Jews writes to the Jews in his two epistles.

Christ has more than one fold. ( who become one fold.)


John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.




Israel has multiple stumbling blocks, they do not hear Moses, so wont hear Christ. ( they seek signs, not faith.)

The example of how Israel mis saved already, ( the remnant) is told below. ( who believe in the preaching of the cross/Israel could not be persuaded even though one rose from the dead.)

The 2 witnesses in Revelation rise from the dead, symbolising how Israel could not be persuaded.



Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

 

[gordon777]

One doesn't seek something one already possesses. Israel is already in covenant with God and has relationship as His Bride.

The bride is when dead to the law, Israel is not dead to the law, as it denies the body of Christ. ( Israel is wed to the law and remains unfaithful/faith is in Christ who is the end of the law/unfaithfulness that Israel is in.)


Romans 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[Tenchi]

Jesus obeyed the Father, then we assume you mean obeying God the same way, to not lose a salvation that is Jesus Christ, as Apostle Paul did, and even said this..

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If my obedience saves me, then I am my own savior, not Christ. But the Bible flatly denies that such a thing is the case:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

If my obedience maintains and retains my salvation, then I am at least a co-savior with Christ. But there is only ONE Savior and he ain't us, as Scripture plainly indicates:

John 14:6
6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Obedience is never the means of obtaining, or keeping salvation; it is only the by-product, the result, the fruit of salvation.

Philippians 2:12 ought never to be removed from the verse that follows it:

Philippians 2:12-13
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The apostle Paul here made crystal clear the order of things: We work out only what God has first worked into us (by His Spirit). We are only able to "work out our salvation" because God has given to us both the ability and the desire ("to will and to work") to do so. Thus, our salvation is ultimately both given and maintained, not by us, but by the One who saved us.

Paul went on to explain to what end the believer was to "work out their own salvation" (not preserve their own salvation):

Philippians 2:15
15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,

Paul doesn't write here that verse 12 was about how to keep one's salvation, but only that, by God's power, one should express that salvation in "blameless and innocent" behavior that was "above reproach," not so that the Philippian believers might continue to be saved, but so that they would "appear as lights in the world."

As I have already explained in other threads on the eternal security of the believer, to assert that the born-again person remains so only as they work to obey God is to adopt the very sort of thinking the Judaizers of the letter to the Galatians were promoting, which Paul roundly condemned. Such legalistic, law-keeping thinking is, essentially, works-salvation which the Bible repeatedly and explicitly excludes as a means of salvation. See above.

Galatians 3:1-3
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yes lets see how the marriage works.

God does not forsake, but they do sometimes. ( return to folly, their folly manifest to all men, the dog returns to its vomit, the sow washes then wallows in the mire/better to have not known the way of righteousness, than to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them..)




Psalm 85:8 I will hear what God the Lord will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.

Hosea 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Maybe where man is concerned but God doesn't lie. If He's made promise to any of His Bride who is Israel, He is faithful and will fulfill ALL His Promises.
Even if His Bride Israel is unfaithful (and she has been just like the Gentile Church.)

 

[Vinny37]

Yes lets see how the marriage works.

God does not forsake, but they do sometimes. ( return to folly, their folly manifest to all men, the dog returns to its vomit, the sow washes then wallows in the mire/better to have not known the way of righteousness, than to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them..)




Psalm 85:8 I will hear what God the Lord will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.

Hosea 2:18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Not a very likely engagement of minds. On a side note, I do find it disturbing when folk like you further downgrade God's name. Even the KJV has [LORD], not [Lord]. Why you misquote it, I don't understand. Tyndale upgraded the Roman Catholic [the Lord], to a minimum of [the LORD], and a maximum (in today's parlance) of [Yahweh]. He tried to gently upgrade theology levels.
I was raised, incidentally, within dispensationalism, but have long have found it unsatisfactory. On topic, I hold that Ethnic Israel has lost its salvation - what I call Level 2, a salvation road that led to Calvary and terminated there.