Good. Bring the dressing.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Can you lose your salvation?
- Thread starter TonyChanYT
- Start date
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Post 80 is also for you.
Thanks.
The whole letter and the others like it to other churches was to Jewish Christians who needed instruction about some of the issues facing those churches about Messiah and how it impacted Judaism. Gentiles would have no knowledge of the things Paul says about the Law, the promises, practices, covenants and Paul writes as though his readers have intimate knowledge of the things he addresses in his letters. Gentiles were strangers and aliens to the household of God and their knowledge of Judaic religion and faith was nil to none.
For the first 4 decades after ascension the Church was populated by Jews.
Jesus was a Jewish Messiah. He was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel and taught Israel in the gospels. Christ sent His disciples into Gentile lands where a population of the twelve tribes lived in order to herald to them that Israel's Messiah had come, and that God had kept His Promise. When they finally went on this mission Jews were the first to be saved in the various cities and locations they visited. For forty years the Church was mainly Jewish with a small scattering of Gentiles in the mix as a precursor of what God was going to do in the near future after the Temple was destroyed and the "ism" of Judaism ended. No Temple, no worship. Because Christ was not present in the Temple that house was desolate.
Here is something from Wikipedia. I don't particularly like to use secular sources, but this is pretty accurate:
Hellenistic Judaism was a form of Judaism in classical antiquity that combined Jewish religious tradition with elements of Greek culture. Until the early Muslim conquests of the eastern Mediterranean, the main centers of Hellenistic Judaism were Alexandria in Egypt and Antioch in Syria (now in southern Turkey), the two main Greek urban settlements of the Middle East and North Africa region, both founded in the end of the fourth century BCE in the wake of the conquests of Alexander the Great. Hellenistic Judaism also existed in Jerusalem during the Second Temple Period, where there was a conflict between Hellenizers and traditionalists.
The major literary product of the contact between Second Temple Judaism and Hellenistic culture is the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible from Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Aramaic to Koine Greek, specifically, Jewish Koine Greek. Mentionable are also the philosophic and ethical treatises of Philo and the historiographical works of the other Hellenistic Jewish authors.
The decline of Hellenistic Judaism started in the second century and its causes are still not fully understood. It may be that it was eventually marginalized by, partially absorbed into, or progressively became the Koine-speaking core of Early Christianity centered on Antioch and its traditions, such as the Melkite Greek Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch.
Now to your comment:
Stovebolts:
What I hear you saying is this. The church in Galatia were primarily Hellenistic Jews who had first encountered Christianity through Jewish converts in Christ only later to be defiled by Jewish Christians who were trying to live in Christ through the old covenant, thus nullifying the new.
Is that close?
I'm saying all the churches Paul wrote to were populated with Jews who were saved, filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise, and were first called "Christians" at Antioch.
I'd agree with you they were Judaizers influenced by Greek culture where they lived, and they lived in Gentile lands and cities.
The Pharisees said that Jesus was getting more 'converts' than John so yes, in the beginning these Jewish Christians could not maintain their fellowship with the hard-core hard 'hearted" blinded Jews in their synagogues as long as they continued to preach a Messiah that hung on a cross/tree. In time a division occurred just as Jesus said He would do (or be the result of.)
First wave of Jewish Christians to go to Gentile lands saved by Christ left the Feast of Trumpets in Jerusalem after Peter's sermon to "Ye men of Israel" (northern kingdom), and "Ye men of Judaea" (southern kingdom) - the twelve tribes.
The second wave occurred due to persecution in Jerusalem and it was the Judaizer/Judaism persecuting Jewish Christians.
The third wave may have been at the time of destruction of the Temple. Jesus said when you see Jerusalem surrounded (by Gentiles) don't go back into your house. Flee!
Gentiles were slowly being saved through the years, but these churches were Jewish with a few Gentiles. But after the Temple was destroyed and many Jews suffering persecution many considered going back to Judaism.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb. 6:3–6.
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal. 3:3–6.
Some of the background contained in Paul's letters to the Jewish Christians in Gentile lands concerned persecution. Persecuted by Judaizers (observers of the Law) or by Gentiles and the adherents to their goddess Diana. They couldn't fathom a Jewish Messiah who died by crucifixion on a tree. It had to be explained by those that were Jesus' disciples or Barnabas, or Paul, or Apollos and Priscilla, and the other Jewish Christians that had access to their Scriptures and had a good working knowledge of the covenants, the practices of the Temple/Tabernacle and could explain all that came with the arrival of Jesus and His effect on Judaism as they knew it.
Thank you, for that.
You are an excellent encourager.
But wasn't Pater one of the apostles of the Jews? Surely, he cannot be writing to Gentiles in his epistles.Since my time is short, I’ll refer you.
Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Sure, that being said, the covenant established through Noah and the 7 universal laws are still in effect as testified by the Rainbow.
So let’s make sure that we’re talking about the correct covenant. And when I say covenant, we can use it as an umbrella term, but it can be confusing.
For example, the Covenant with Noah is a universal covenant for all.
Then we have a narrowing where a more specific purpose is established, and that is through Abraham.
And here is an interesting tidbit, the Hebrew language uses a term called “House”. For example, the “House” of Abraham does not mean only those from his loins. It would include his servants etc.
In terms of the house of Israel, we see many non bloodline Jews leave Egypt, yet they were Israelites.
But I regress. From the covenant with Abraham, we see the covenant with all of Israel, the “son of God” at Sinai. It is within this covenant that the 613 laws were given. Ironically the 613 is a blend of Gods Laws and the laws of Moses. (God did not permit divorce, yet Moses did).
As part of the Sinai Covenant, a single tribe (Levi) was chosen to minister to the other 11 tribes. And within the tribe of Levi, only one line, and that of Moses brother Aaron could minister in the Tabernacle.
In the same way, we see a Covenant with David that is fulfilled by Jesus and subsequently fulfills the covenants at Sinai and Abraham.
Here is a brief explanation.
Remember the covenant with Abraham and the smoking pot…. God offered his Son (and not his “son” Israel) to fulfill that covenant. And when Jesus was raised from the dead, He was seated at the right hand of God fulfilling his promise to David through the line of Judah.
Where am I going with this you may ask…
Those only in the covenant of Noah receive blessings through the covenants of Abraham, Israel, David and Jesus because we make this world a better place to live. We, through Christ bring order out of chaos. We are lights that bring healing and unstoppable joy that cannot be quenched by circumstance. Ironically, we shine the brightest through trial. We are Gods chosen to minister and testify to the God we serve and worship not pointing to ourselves, but rather our lights would combine creating a spotlight showcasing Gods Glory.
In other words, we have a purpose and responsibility. For those not in the new covenant in Christ, we invite them in the same manner Deuteronomy 4:6 onward states.
This is good, I like it. I would add this, the ministry of Jesus was reconciliation. His purpose was to seek and save the lost. First to the Jew, then the gentiles. As gentiles, we are grafted in. But I was going to say that we are to “ walk as Jesus walked”. Peter calls us a kingdom of Priests which is to say, if you want to know what somebodies God looks like, look at their Priest. Now that’s sobering…. Many people only know of our God by looking and watching us.
Amen. I agree with everything you've said.
But if I may, God still has promises to fulfill towards Israel and one of the messages of the two witnesses to Israel in the Revelation will contain "bloodline" integrity.
I propose that these two witnesses God sends to herald Christ to the twelve tribes of Israel will incorporate the First Covenant just as Paul and the others did to show Israel that this Jesus was truly their long-awaited Messiah and Christ and Redeemer and also King. And Christ returns with the armies of heaven and fights their enemies alongside Israel and overcomes them all. What a testimony when they see Jesus bar Joseph come in the clouds of heaven. Then 'all Israel shall be saved.'
Until Christ does come the First Covenant is still in effect and "bloodlines' will be observed. Especially when the King creates His Court with identities found in the First Covenant.
At the Marriage Supper Israel is there by Covenant and she should be. She is His Bride.
Gentiles are grafted in. They are there at the Supper by invitation (Matt. 22.)
But God made no covenant with Gentiles. Gentiles enjoy the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant while Abraham and his Seed enjoy the natural covenant and the spiritual aspect of that same covenant.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
stovebolts
Member
I believe he was writing to Christian’s. ;-)
I’ll be honest, I’m very weak in the book of Revelation. You’ll have to show me as I can’t think of we’re in Revelation your referring to.
You’ll have to elaborate, I’m not really following.
And by first covenant, are you referring to the covenant known as the proto gospel in Genesis3?
Again, and so sorry but there are 7 covenants in the Bible and for these types of discussions I really need to understand exactly which one we’re talking about.
Your going to have to walk back to Revelation and share, and be specific which covenant your referring to.
I started to guess your talking about the Abrahamic covenant, but that is a universal covenant when it comes to bloodlines because it was for his entire house, and within his house are many bloodlines. So I’m really confused on this bloodline thing you’ve got going on. But that’s because I’ve never heard of it before. I’m not saying your wrong, I’m just saying it’s new information to me.
Yes, gentiles are grafted in, but there is no distinction the way I understand scripture.
I think I’m going to stop right here until I get a better understanding of this bloodline your chasing. I look forward to reading what you’ve got to say.
Yes, you do ;)
Jewish Christians.
I'm saying the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenant as well as prophecy. There are still many promises and prophecies God must fulfill having to do with Covenant Israel.
I think that would be a good post from you. Since you received instruction on these covenants, I'd be happy to know what you know and go to the well as they say.
Most likely the Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic Covenants. There may also be prophecies by the prophets.
Let me get back to you on this.
Again, let me get back to you.
????? Word salad
, concoction, what's so disrespectful???
It's not mainly in Revelations where promises still need to be kept, but in places throughout the bible. Such as the promise to David his offspring will sit on his throne.
Or that Israel will occupy the land (and the land encompasses a great deal of property all the way to present-day Iraq.)
I mean the Old Testament Scriptures.
All the Jewish apostles, Barnabas, Luke, Peter, James, John, Jude, Apollos and Priscilla, Epaphroditus, etc., didn't have the New Testament writings in which to show this Jesus bar Joseph was Israel's long-awaited Redeemer, Messiah, and King, and Savior, they only had the Old Testament. And they used it to explain all the relevant covenants and prophecies from their Scripture to teach the Advent of Christ to Israel and his impact upon Judaism of their day.
Since God has blinded Israel's eyes in part to not "see" Jesus as Messiah and thus reject Him this will continue until the Times of the Gentiles end and God turns His full attention back to Israel. I cannot tell you what an exciting time that will be to me personally. I mean, living in our present era is one thing and reading about Him, sensing and feeling His Presence and His Presence in others, having His Spirit teach us, lead us, and guide us is one thing, but to see Him return from above the same way He went up would be the event for all time! To be in Israel when His foot touches the Mount and to take up arms against Israel's enemies will be something to see.
Continuing here from my last comment above these two Jewish witnesses through the Holy Spirit and God removing the 'scales' from Israel's eyes will use the Old Testament writings in their prophecies to Israel and show them this Jesus was really their Messiah. The Holy Spirit will affect upon their minds and understanding the same way He does it with ours.
The Abrahamic Covenant was a family covenant. It went to Isaac then Jacob and then his twelve sons and their families and their descendants. It never went through Gentile bloodlines or family. It is strictly a family covenant God made with Abrah the Hebrew and later to the children of Jacob/Israel down to Joseph and Mary and Jesus. Even Jesus' half-brothers and sisters are part of the natural and spiritual aspect of the covenant. Gentiles come from the sons of Noah Ham and Japheth. But the covenants all come through a particular family line going back to Noah, Shem, Lamech, Seth, Abel, and Adam. Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham. The natural and spiritual aspect of this covenant belong to Abraham and His Hebrew and Jewish descendants and Gentiles only enjoy the spiritual aspect of this covenant and the promises attached to it to him personally and to the people through prophecy and other covenants such as the Davidic Covenant.
Gentiles are not part of the Abrahamic Covenant except through a grafting into the natural branches that is Israel.
Last night was late for me so as promised I come back here today. The more I think about this the more understanding and Scripture comes to mind. All that I know is self-taught meaning me, the Holy Spirit and the KJV. Sometimes I read at websites and it the source is reasonable and sound it just makes me think more. Throughout my day I am constantly dwelling on Scripture and things others say in post.