When you're baptized into Christ, you're saved, but saved from what? What has been forgiven? Your sins have, but that's past sins, those already committed that separated you from God initially, NOT, future sins which would require repentance. So yes, you can lose your salvation.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Can you lose your salvation?
- Thread starter TonyChanYT
- Start date
That's only part of the equation.
God is Eternal. Jesus Christ is Eternal. The work He did on the cross is eternal.
There are two perspectives to consider, one is the Eternal perspective of God in the eternal "now," and the other is the perspective of man in time.
From God's perspective all my sins in His eternal "now" are atoned.
From my perspective in time all my sins are atoned.
To describe it from my perspective Jesus Christ, the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
But having my sins past, present, and future atoned does not clear me to sin as I please.
The Holy Spirit which dwells in me speaks to my conscience when I do sin and I'd be wise to address it to myself, to others if someone is involved, and to God.
The repentance and seeking God's forgiveness and restored favor goes to relationship. If I care about my relationship with God I'd take care to be sensitive to my sins and failings and if I don't, I will still be saved but somewhere down the line of my life will suffer the consequences of my unrepented sin(s). My conscience can become hardened and 'stiff-necked' if you will, but God is not mocked. Whatsoever I sow, that shall I also reap, for if I sow to my flesh I shall of the flesh reap corruption; but if I sow to the Spirit I shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Gal. 6:7–8.
Now that I am saved no one will pluck me out of God's hand. Not even myself.
See above.
stovebolts
Member
The answer is actually very simple…
Matthew is a Jew and is writing to a Jewish audience. It is customary to swap the words and use heaven.
Matthew records Jesus saying,
The kingdom of heaven is…
Mark, Luke and John have Jesus saying,
The kingdom of God is…
Same parables…. Different words both synonymous to each other.
It’s about the audience.
Israel is not the bride, but the harlot
While Israel is the Bride of Christ and has "played the harlot" and has been unfaithful to her covenant God just as Gentile believers also "play the harlot" and love someone other than her betrothed, we are grateful and thankful that what matters in the final analysis is that God is faithful and through His faithfulness to His Promises to Israel, we Gentiles have salvation and fellowship with God.
At the Marriage Supper of the Lamb Israel is there by covenant, Gentiles are there by invitation.
Matthew 22:1-14.
Tenchi
Member
Galatians 3:25-29
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
The covenant was with Abraham the person and to his descendants.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.
The covenant has at least two aspects: natural (the land), and spiritual (circumcision).
Gentiles do not get the land by covenant, but they do get the circumcision or spiritual aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant.
Gentiles are not the natural aspect of the covenant because Gentiles do not come from his 'seed' or descendants.
And the "nations" and "kings" that do come from his loins are the descendants of Ishmael (twelve sons and their descendants) and Esau. These are the peoples that do come from his loins.
Gentiles enjoy the spiritual aspect of the covenant, but God made no covenant with any Gentiles.
Tenchi
Member
Galatians 3:25-29
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
First, Paul is speaking (writing) to Jews.
The issue was how their Messiah affected the Abrahamic Covenant and the promises God gave to him and his descendants who are Israel.
THAT is the context in which to understand what Paul is saying.
But God made no covenant with Gentiles.
In writing to the Jews in this (circular) letter Paul brings up the problem that concerned the Jewish believers in Christ and it has to do with Judaism and circumcision.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ ["Christianity"] unto another gospel [Judaism]:
7 Which is not another [of a different kind]; but there be some that trouble you and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel [Judaism] unto you than that which we have preached unto you [Christ], let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel [Judaism] unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Gal. 1:6–9.
Secondly, Paul addresses the Fatherhood of God to Israel in his salutation. The Gentiles did not have God as their father until they were adopted by God. And this is the spiritual blessing of the Abrahamic Covenant.
The whole of all Paul's letters as with Peter, James, and John, and Luke, and Mark, and Matthew, and Jude, are all written to the Jewish believers in Christ. While the Temple still stood the "ism" of Judaism remained and the first converts to Christ were Jews.
3000 Jews were saved at Peter's first sermon. Later, while the Temple still stood when Paul went to a location he first went to the synagogue in that location and taught Christ. And as a former priest of the Sanhedrin, he knew the Scripture and with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit the Seed of the Word of God in him came alive and this is the 'revelation' he says that was taught him. There was no personal Christological contact with the Savior. It was through the Scripture. The same revelation that comes to a child of God who search the Scriptures and take God's Word as written and NOT add to it or subtract from it, or even use it to justify their erroneous personal pet theories and beliefs.
Tenchi
Member
Just so folks don't miss it: It takes a great deal more work and words to deny the obvious than to declare it. jeremiah1five 's post above is an excellent example of this.
Galatians 3:25-29
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
Isn't it neat how the plain and obvious defends itself?
Galatians 3:25-29
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
Isn't it neat how the plain and obvious defends itself?
stovebolts
Member
Actually, He did in Genesis 9 and there are 7 laws attached to the covenant.
One might ask why additional covenants occurred and in order, we see the covenant with Abraham, then Sinai (Israel), then David and finally, Jesus.
What we see is a funnel effect which narrows pointing to Christ. That being said, the covenant with Noah is still in effect while the covenants with Israel (Sinai) and David have been fulfilled through Jesus which tie into the covenant with Abraham.
So we see two very distinct covenants. We see the Covenant established through Noah for all, and we see the others culminating through Jesus and the New Covenant.
One has to ask the purpose of the new Covenant and I would suggest it is not much different than the purpose of the Sinai covenant.
Deuteronomy 4 NIV
See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the Lord my God commandedme, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.” 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the Lord our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?
To accept your holding would require that Gentiles are the descendants of Abraham in the natural and this is impossible. Paul is writing to the Jews and the context is how Israel's Messiah and King impacted their religion.
As you can see by the language Paul uses with regard to the Law which the Jews were under (not Gentiles - it was the middle wall partition separating Jews and Gentiles) for God never gave the Law to Gentiles. He gave it to the children of Israel.
Gentiles did not begin to come into Christ until later and any Gentiles beside Cornelius (in Jerusalem) were the minority. There was still the existence of prejudice of Jews and Gentiles (remember Peter and his vision) and any Gentiles that were saved were separated until Paul addressed the issue through Scripture and reason.
Paul's letter is to the Jews. Gentiles would not have the level of knowledge Paul speaks of in his writings about the Law, the covenants, the history, the culture, the practices, and everything Jewish Paul writes about in his letters.
stovebolts
Member
Hi again,
The way I understand the purpose of Paul writing to the church in Galicia, which was a gentile church was because there were Jewish Christians who didn’t understand their freedom (new covenant) in Christ and were trying to impose circumcision as a sign of their salvation.
Galatians 5:1-12
Word salad of your own concoction with no scriptural support regarding the subject matter
Hello Chief. Glad to see you posting again.
Now, if I may...
Having read Genesis 9 can you enumerate these 7 laws to the Noahic Covenant you mentioned?
The Noahic Covenant is a Promise God will not flood the earth again.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
Gen. 9:11.
As you said, "a funnel effect" which I agree as the covenants God made with a certain family line all point to Christ. But that family line found separation between the sons of God through the Sethian line on down to Christ who was born into the tribe of Judah, and those who would be known as Gentile.
This is the culmination of the covenants God made through this family line and as you may know Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham to which the covenant made with him was also to his descendants.
Abraham had two sons. The one with a bond-woman (Ishmael) and the other through a free-woman (Isaac).
Isaac also had two sons. One named Esau, the other Jacob/Israel.
Ishmael had several wives and most probably concubines and had blessings from God. Ishmael had twelve sons. I'm sure through one woman but through these women he had many descendants.
Esau had several wives and concubines. He also had many descendants.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Gen. 17:6.
The nations and kings that "shall come out of thee" are not Gentiles. These would have to be the descendants of Ishmael and Esau (and we cannot discount any other children Abe may have had through other women and the descendants of Ishmael and Esau) but the Promises we now know come through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not through any other women that may have borne him offspring.
Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham. God made no covenant with Gentiles.
Gentiles in this brief era are enjoying the spiritual blessings of Abraham but not the covenant itself. This was between Abe and God and Abe's descendants. Gentiles are not his natural descendants. Thus, the spiritual aspect of the Hebrew/Israel covenant provides for spiritual blessings such as the Holy Spirit through which Gentiles receive the spiritual blessings but not the natural covenant of land. King Jesus has to have a realm/land, right?
Galatians was written by Paul approximately AD 49. If we take this as a target date and Paul saved about 3-4 years (AD 37) after Jesus' crucifixion it was about 12 years time.
Now, we know the Church in Acts 2 at Pentecost was a continuation of the Church (the Great Congregation) that was the people that came out of Egypt and journeyed in the desert finally to be established as such at the time of the Tabernacle, and that the first converts to Christianity (which in reality is Completed Judaism) 3000 Jews were saved at the first sermon by Peter. 3000 Jews. There were Jewish visitors from different parts of the lands east, west, north, and south of Israel that came to the Feast of Trumpets (Pentecost) not to mention those who lived there in Jerusalem and locally.
There are 17 languages listed that these visitors heard these Galileans speaking under the New Wine. These people went back to their places they travelled from and they were Jews. Gentiles didn't come to Jewish Feasts. If so, they were converts and most likely circumcised but still as Gentiles occupied a separate section in the Temple as well as the synagogues.
These visitors went back to their Jewish brethren where they came from as Christ followers and shared what they witnessed and what they experienced. Peter lays the groundwork of their understanding in what they were able to communicate to their fellow Jews in their homelands and we can say Jews were saved at their sharing. So, since there were synagogues they had belonged to it's a good bet they couldn't continue with their synagogue brethren for in time sharing about this Jesus who died on a cross would have been unbearable to these Judaizers. It's another good bet that home churches started this way when Jewish Christians couldn't fellowship with their unsaved Jewish brethren because anyone hung on a tree is cursed.
Most scholars say the book of Acts is a history of about 30 years. But let's go to Acts 8 when a great persecution of Jewish Christians took place and caused many to leave to new pastures. Except the apostles. They stayed in Jerusalem, and I might add, in disobedience to Christ's instruction to go into Gentile lands to herald Israel's Messiah to the twelve tribes scattered throughout the then-known world. So, it was Jewish Christians that took the message of Israel's Messiah coming in fulfillment of God's Promises to send their Redeemer and King.
In the first several decades since Jesus' ascension Christianity was basically a Jewish phenomenon as the story was that Jesus Messiah was Jewish to begin with and in Jewish minds, like with the Samaritans, they had no dealings with Gentiles, religious or otherwise. The middle wall partition thing was still in their Jewish minds until at least Paul could straighten them out. And he did. By sending letters to the Jewish churches in Gentile lands. Peter's vision was about ten years from the ascension. In God's timetable the "ism" of Judaism remained until the destruction of their Temple and cities.
Christianity was founded by Christ and His first converts to Christ/Messiah were Jews for about twenty years from ascension to destruction of the Temple and several years beyond for this was the beginning of the era we live in called the Times of the Gentiles where God is grafting in Gentiles into the natural branches who is Israel.
There were Judaizers in these Gentile cities in Asai Minor as well as a certain person that followed Paul and tried to teach these Christian Jews they still had to be circumcised to be "Christ-ian" or "Messiah-ites."
But for about 20 years after ascension Christianity was a Jewish phenomenon and only Jews were invited to the party. They held all the religious cards, if you will until destruction of their Temple and God began bringing in (grafting) Gentiles.
stovebolts
Member
Hello friend, and yet much more dear Brother in Christ.
Since my time is short, I’ll refer you.
Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia
Sure, that being said, the covenant established through Noah and the 7 universal laws are still in effect as testified by the Rainbow.
So let’s make sure that we’re talking about the correct covenant. And when I say covenant, we can use it as an umbrella term, but it can be confusing.
For example, the Covenant with Noah is a universal covenant for all.
Then we have a narrowing where a more specific purpose is established, and that is through Abraham.
And here is an interesting tidbit, the Hebrew language uses a term called “House”. For example, the “House” of Abraham does not mean only those from his loins. It would include his servants etc.
In terms of the house of Israel, we see many non bloodline Jews leave Egypt, yet they were Israelites.
But I regress. From the covenant with Abraham, we see the covenant with all of Israel, the “son of God” at Sinai. It is within this covenant that the 613 laws were given. Ironically the 613 is a blend of Gods Laws and the laws of Moses. (God did not permit divorce, yet Moses did).
As part of the Sinai Covenant, a single tribe (Levi) was chosen to minister to the other 11 tribes. And within the tribe of Levi, only one line, and that of Moses brother Aaron could minister in the Tabernacle.
In the same way, we see a Covenant with David that is fulfilled by Jesus and subsequently fulfills the covenants at Sinai and Abraham.
Here is a brief explanation.
Remember the covenant with Abraham and the smoking pot…. God offered his Son (and not his “son” Israel) to fulfill that covenant. And when Jesus was raised from the dead, He was seated at the right hand of God fulfilling his promise to David through the line of Judah.
Where am I going with this you may ask…
Those only in the covenant of Noah receive blessings through the covenants of Abraham, Israel, David and Jesus because we make this world a better place to live. We, through Christ bring order out of chaos. We are lights that bring healing and unstoppable joy that cannot be quenched by circumstance. Ironically, we shine the brightest through trial. We are Gods chosen to minister and testify to the God we serve and worship not pointing to ourselves, but rather our lights would combine creating a spotlight showcasing Gods Glory.
In other words, we have a purpose and responsibility. For those not in the new covenant in Christ, we invite them in the same manner Deuteronomy 4:6 onward states.
This is good, I like it. I would add this, the ministry of Jesus was reconciliation. His purpose was to seek and save the lost. First to the Jew, then the gentiles. As gentiles, we are grafted in. But I was going to say that we are to “ walk as Jesus walked”. Peter calls us a kingdom of Priests which is to say, if you want to know what somebodies God looks like, look at their Priest. Now that’s sobering…. Many people only know of our God by looking and watching us.
In addition, one role of the Holy Spirit is to bring gentiles into repentance, thus drawing the to the Lord. And this brings me back to your final words regarding the earlier covenants.
Correct, but even then, as is true today they can enter into those covenants and become a member of that House. The House of the Lord has many children and through Christ, they are all treated as sons and daughters. Bloodlines and genealogies are meaningless in comparison to being a son or daughter of the most high.
Can I get an Amen brother!
stovebolts
Member
That’s interesting. I’ll need to dig into that a bit deeper.
What I hear you saying is this. The church in Galatia were primarily Hellenistic Jews who had first encountered Christianity through Jewish converts in Christ only later to be defiled by Jewish Christians who were trying to live in Christ through the old covenant, thus nullifying the new.
Is that close?
jeremiah1five here are the seven commandments @stovebolt was talking about if you didn't check out that website he gave you. This is from another site.
www.jewfaq.org
Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are now binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Adam or Noah, and none today on this side of the cross as we are all one in the Spirit of God, Galatians 3:28. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13, and until the days of Jacob there was no land called Israel or any laws pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite as none of that existed yet. What there were was seven to begin with that are the laws that are written on our heart. Laws were added to as the generations grew until there became 613 that became a curse as no one could ever follow all of them.
Beginning with Genesis 2:16 the Babylonian Talmud, Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Sanhedrin 56ab listed six commandments given first to Adam and then again to Noah after the flood. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all the first part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow that are written upon our heart. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the righteousness of the laws, Matthew 5:17-22.
Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.
Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands
Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13
To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood
Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.
Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
www.jewfaq.org
Noahic (Noah) Commandments are seven commandments first given to Adam by God before the flood and brought to remembrance by God to Noah after the flood, which are now binding on both Jew and Gentile as there were no Jew or Gentile in the days of Adam or Noah, and none today on this side of the cross as we are all one in the Spirit of God, Galatians 3:28. Abraham was the first one to be called a Hebrew, Genesis 14:13, and until the days of Jacob there was no land called Israel or any laws pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite as none of that existed yet. What there were was seven to begin with that are the laws that are written on our heart. Laws were added to as the generations grew until there became 613 that became a curse as no one could ever follow all of them.
Beginning with Genesis 2:16 the Babylonian Talmud, Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Sanhedrin 56ab listed six commandments given first to Adam and then again to Noah after the flood. The seven make up the first parts of the ten that God gave to Moses on Mt Sinai in Exodus 20. Below is a comparison list of the seven and the full ten which are all the first part of the 613 laws given to Moses as some were for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite and then there are the existing moral laws (commandments) for all, Jew and Gentile to follow that are written upon our heart. Christ did not come to destroy all the laws, but to fulfill the righteousness of the laws, Matthew 5:17-22.
Noahic Laws:
Not to worship idols.
Not to curse God.
To establish courts of justice.
Not to commit murder.
Not to commit adultery or sexual immorality.
Not to steal.
Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.
Mt. Sinai Laws:
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall not make idols.
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet.
Part of the ten laws broken down to various commands within one law:
Other gods and idols are as one not to worship, but broke down into two commands
Remember the Sabbath was added to the ten commandments by God as a remembrance of all God did in six days (Gods timing) and rested on the seventh, Genesis 2:1-3; Matthew 12:1-13
To establish courts of justice was only given to Noah for the new generations to come after the flood
Honor your father and mother was not given to Noah, but was added to the ten commandments by God as the generations grew.
Not to covet was added to the ten commandments by God, but broke down into seven commands as your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.
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