Catholic Apostacy

[RND]

Wrong...

The Law is the Torah, ALL the commands given by God, to include the rite of circumcision.

The Torah is the Books of the prohet Moses. The Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible.

The first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Tell me, if circumcision is not a commandment from God, why was it not optional?

Because it was a sign of the covenant between God and Abraham.

Why did the Jews circumcise EVERY man? For the heck of it??? Acts 15 waived this requirement of the Law.

No, the death of Christ on the cross eliminated this requirement. Jesus was the "New Covenant" not the diciples in Acts.

I never said we COULDN'T get circumcised... I said it is no longer REQUIRED. This is a result of the Catholic Church exercising her God-given power as related in the Bible.

Um, no...this is the power of God to keep His promises to the Jews and the Goyim.

Circumcision was part of the Law given by God through Moses and the Torah, the law that the Judaizers claimed that Gentiles had to follow to become saved.

Um, circumcision was part of the covenant between God and Abraham. It was later added to the Book of the law, the handwritten Mosaic law.

Those who can read can see that Acts 15 loosen those binding rules on the People of God. That same Church also did the same thing in worshiping God on the "Day of the Lord", the eighth day, the New Creation.

Um, there's nothing in Acts 15 regarding sabbath worship, and there is nothing to suggest that the disciples were loosening any requirements from the 10 commandments.

You're are lost in the false doctrine and paganism of romanism.

 

[RND]

I didn't include it for the same reason why I didn't quote from Romans 3. It has nothing to do with the point I am making: that the Church did away with the requirement of circumcision.

There are no verses in Acts 15 specifically prohibiting or abolishing circumcision. None.

If you also want to include dietary laws, further commandments of the Torah that Jews were to follow, you are merely making my case that much stronger!!!

Oy vey! Do you have the same physical make up of a Jew? If so, why is eating pig OK for you but not them?

One can see by reading Acts that Peter STILL abided in the dietary laws before Acts 15. It took a revelation by the Holy Spirit to break free from that - and thus, the Church decided, in addition to not requiring circumcision, that they would also loosen some of the dietary laws with the exception as noted in Acts 15:28-29.

Your daffy, the cites say nothing about the dietary laws.

Acts 15:28-29
For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Where do you see the word circumcision other than the first verse?

Since we were talking about circumcision, I didn't include it. Do you have any other verses that I didn't include that you want to help in proving my case??? :P

You are kidding right? I would find more accurate Bibilogy in a box of Cracker Jacks.

 

[francisdesales]

There are no verses in Acts 15 specifically prohibiting or abolishing circumcision. None.

Having a problem with reading again, I see. I said it is no longer REQUIRED. I even capitalized it for you... There is a difference between abolishing/prohibiting and making a former requirement to salvation no longer required. Read posts more carefully.

Oy vey! Do you have the same physical make up of a Jew? If so, why is eating pig OK for you but not them?

Yes, I have the same physical makup as a Jew. I have two arms, two legs, a head and so forth. How about you? Where do you get these replies from? Not eating pork is no longer a law unto me. It is not REQUIRED.

Where do you see the word circumcision other than the first verse?

I have already posted the majority of Acts 15. You can read, I presume. Read it again. I don't have time for your childish games. I don't see the need for repeating myself and highlighting AGAIN for you the pertinent verses...

You are kidding right? I would find more accurate Bibilogy in a box of Cracker Jacks.

I am not surprised that you would look to Cracker Jacks for your "Bibilogy", whatever that means. That, coupled with your inability to read, probably establishes your age around 12. Considering how this conversation is going - your inability to read replies and comprehend them and your incessant belittling, I will bid ado to you, as I prefer to discuss things with adults, not children. I have more pressing concerns and more intelligent Protestants to sit and discuss issues with rather than play your childish games or listen to name-calling from a "Christian"...

I'll keep you in my prayers, just the same.

 

[Vic C.]

About circumcision:

It was a foreshadow of what was to come. They were to practice circumcision as a sign that they are under a covenant with God.

Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Jeremiah 9:25-26 shows us God was really interested in a circumcision of the heart. This is dealt with nicely in the latter part of Romans 2.

If you don't think circumcision was an issue for the Council, read Acts 15:5-29. Here's 24:

Acts 15:24 Since we heard that some of us having gone out have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, Be circumcised and keep the Law, to whom we gave no command; (litv)

 

[RND]

He who leaves the battlefield first loses by default.

 

[Vic C.]

You are kidding right? I would find more accurate Bibilogy in a box of Cracker Jacks.

:o

I must kindly remind all to please refrain from such insults, before it becomes the norm. Let's discuss doctrinal issues, not boxed snacks. :

 

[RND]

:o

I must kindly remind all to please refrain from such insults, before it becomes the norm. Let's discuss doctrinal issues, not boxed snacks. :

My sincerest apologies to the board and to Joe. Mea culpa.

 

[Vic C.]

He who leaves the battlefield first loses by default.

Qué? :-?

 

[RND]

Qué? :-?

It is an old legal maxim.

HE WHO LEAVES THE BATTLEFIELD FIRST LOSES BY DEFAULT. This means that an affidavit which is unrebutted point for point stands as "truth in commerce" because it hasn't been rebutted and has left the battlefield.

Governments allegedly exist to resolve disputes, conflicts and truth. Governments allegedly exist to be substitutes for the dueling field and the battlefield for such disputes, conflicts of affidavits of truth are resolved peaceably, reasonably instead of by violence.

So people can take their disputes into court and have them all opened up and resolved, instead of going out and marching ten paces and turning to kill or injure. Legal Maxim: "He who does not repel a wrong when he can, occasions it"

 

[Steve]

What you said about Rome and the Vatican are absolutely true, Golf. There is an organisation of traditional Catholics out of Illinois whose name escapes me at the moment, but they publish, with documentation and pictures, all of the horrors that go on in the various American dioceses. Roman Catholics Concerned may be the name. I have a lot of their stuff at home. The revelations about the late Cardinal Bernardin was a real eye-opener.

Regarding Protestant apostacy, I have long said that any church that has opened itself to the "ordination" of women, has gone straight to hell in a handbasket. Look at the Methodists, how they went from a holiness denomination during the 19thc., and right after they started the women's 'ordination' grabage, they started sliding into modernism and what you see now. Same for the Presbyterians. And, Dear God, the Episcopal Church! Lutherans. Baptists. People have laughed and poo-poo'ed everything I have said about it. But, I was seventeen years old when I told people repeatedly that the most dangerous thing to America was not Communism, but Islam!!!! People laughed in my face and said I didn't know what in the h*** I was talking about.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Steve, Years ago when I was a Catholic, I use to live near Chicago, where the Cardinal lived. I would be interested in the book that you have read about him.

In my opinion the Body of Christ has lost it's way. Why do I say this? Because many don't preach the cross and blood anymore. How did this happen? To me it is because of church orginization, which blocks the move of the Spirit. Now, I am not saying that denominations do this, but How many Christians are willing to take up the cross and follow Jesus? Let me give you two examples: I was talking to someone from the Church of Christ and asked him, why don't you have altar calls? He said because we have a five step process before anyone can be saved. I hope this doesn't offend you, but I talked to Two Episcopalian woman, and asked them, what has happened to your church about ordaining gay ministers? They said that the Bible has changed and we don't believe in what it dictates.

Yes, we are seeing the Apostate church come into being.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Heidi]

Pope John Paul has noted with alarm that during the last few decades that the Roman Catholic Church hax experienced massiive defecttions from the faith by bishops, priests, nuns, and laymen. Many churhes in Western Europe and North America have abandoned traditional doctrines and minister to few attendees. Many parishes have no priest because so few young men join the priesthood. John Paul had confided to associates that his attemppts to reform the moral atmosphere in the Vatican were thwarted by a large network of actively homosexual priests and higher church leaders who resist every attempt at moral reform. The Catholic Church has been infiltrated by a number of wicked and immoral priests and bishops during the reign of Pope Paul six in 1963. Ominously, the Pope warned about the smoke of Satan which had entered the Sanctuary, referring to incidents of SAtanic ceremonies and pagan initiation rituals in the Vatican that defiled the Holy name of Jesus Christ. European newspapers have reported numerous cases of satanic pedophillia involving priests, nuns, and bishops in Turin, Italy, and various cities in America. These diabolical evil rituals involve the sexual defilement of innocent children by satanic priests as part of a Luciferian initiation ceremony that involve open worship of Satan.


These are just some of the things that I read from a book titled Final War by Grant R. Jeffrey. He also wrote about Protestant Apostacy, which is quite alarming.


May God bless, Golfjack

Then the pope first has to start obeying Jesus when he told us not to call anyone on earth Father. Then maybe more true Christians would join his church.

 

[St. Ambrose]

For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

St. Paul is a heretic!!!

 

[Solo]

For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

St. Paul is a heretic!!!

Your translation is faulty. The Scripture of 1 Corinthians 4:14-15 is:

• 14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Jesus was speaking that no man should be called Father in the relationship between man and God Almighty. No man should call the pope father as the Spiritual Father as there is only ONE HOLY FATHER, GOD ALMIGHTY. No one is to be called ones spiritual master other than Christ Jesus as He is master.

• 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
  
  13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. 16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. F44 19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise F45 and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
  
  34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. Matthew 23:1-39

 

[AHIMSA]

My translation reads "Indeed in Christ Jesus I became your Father"- NRSV

14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. - NIV

I do not write these things to (A)shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved (B)children.15 For if you were to have countless (C)tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in (D)Christ Jesus I (E)became your father through the (F)gospel. - NASB

14I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. - English Standard Version

Solo, you are using the KJV which has changed the word father to "I have begotten you". Essentially, that amounts to the same thing. If Paul uses the phrase I have begotten you, he is calling himself their father because only a parent begets another person. However, virtually every other translation uses the word Father anyways. Your argument does not work.

 

[Solo]

My translation reads "Indeed in Christ Jesus I became your Father"- NRSV

14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. - NIV

I do not write these things to (A)shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved (B)children.15 For if you were to have countless (C)tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in (D)Christ Jesus I (E)became your father through the (F)gospel. - NASB

14I do not write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel. - English Standard Version

Solo, you are using the KJV which has changed the word father to "I have begotten you". Essentially, that amounts to the same thing. If Paul uses the phrase I have begotten you, he is calling himself their father because only a parent begets another person. However, virtually every other translation uses the word Father anyways. Your argument does not work.

Your tranlsation has used literary license to paraphrase the Greek into the words you share. The truth of the original Greek and its English translation is below.

Let me share with you the Greek and the English Translation:

• 
  εαν γαρ μυριους παιδαγωγους εχητε εν χριστω αλλ ου πολλους πατερας εν γαρ χριστω ιησου δια του ευαγγελιου εγω υμας εγεννησα
  
  For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ yet have ye not many fathers for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel
  
  Word for Word follows:
  
  εαν = though
  γαρ = For
  μυριους = ten thousand
  παιδαγωγους = instructors
  εχητε = ye have (possessive have)
  εν = in (primary preposition denoting place)
  χριστω = Christ (annointed)
  αλλ = yet (notwithstanding, therefore)
  ου = ye have not (absolute negative adverb)
  πολλους = many (abundant)
  πατερας = fathers
  εν = in (primary preposition denoting place)
  γαρ = For
  χριστω = Christ (annointed)
  ιησου = Jesus
  δια = through
  του = it
  ευαγγελιου = the gospel
  εγω = I
  υμας = you
  εγεννησα = have begotten
  
  For though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet ye have not many fathers, in Christ Jesus I have begotten through it, the gospel.

 

[jgredline]

The NRSV also claims that the virgin Mary was not a virgin but a hand maiden...

I can't believe that anybody would use that heretical translation for anything other that fire wood starter fuel...

 

[AHIMSA]

Solo, regardless of translation, its unquestionably clear:

Paul is saying that you have had ten thousand instructors in Christ, but not many fathers. But I (Paul) have begotten you through the gospel.

Hence Paul is their father.

Any person competent in English can understand that Paul is calling himself their spiritual father, as opposed to one of their many spiritual instructors.

 

[Solo]

Solo, regardless of translation, its unquestionably clear:

Paul is saying that you have had ten thousand instructors in Christ, but not many fathers. But I (Paul) have begotten you through the gospel.

Hence Paul is their father.

Any person competent in English can understand that Paul is calling himself their spiritual father, as opposed to one of their many spiritual instructors.

Paul, IN CHRIST THROUGH THE GOSPEL, has begotten the believers at Corinth. Peter HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT and neither has any of the popes.

Paul does not call himself the Father of the Corinthians; rather he calls the believers begotten through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Of course, your inability to recognize this truth may have something to do with your spiritual state. What do you think?!

PS. Learn Greek and you won't have to depend on the faulty modern English translations. Better yet, ask God to reveal the truth to you through the Holy Spirit. If you are not saved, let me know and I will pray for you.

 

[AHIMSA]

PS. Learn Greek and you won't have to depend on the faulty modern English translations. Better yet, ask God to reveal the truth to you through the Holy Spirit. If you are not saved, let me know and I will pray for you.

I'll get right on that. In the mean time it appears we might have to call in a language specialist to help you draw basic connections between words.

Paul, IN CHRIST THROUGH THE GOSPEL, has begotten the believers at Corinth. Peter HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH IT and neither has any of the popes.

Neither am I quite sure what Peter has to do with this conversation. We are trying to determine if its legitimate to call our spiritual elders "father".

Paul does not call himself the Father of the Corinthians; rather he calls the believers begotten through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You are twisting the words. Paul does not say they are begotten through the gospel, he says HE (as in Paul) begot them through the gospel.


"yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."

Paul is claiming a rare status of being their father in Christ. They have many teachers, but few fathers; in Christ Jesus Paul has fathered them.

I don't think this could be anymore clear or basic. Anyone else see where Solo is coming from? Or is this merely the fruit of a clear intellectual regression?