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Changed from pretribulation to post-tribulation view of the rapture

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They will be under a supernaturally totalitarian regime and will all be beheaded. We do not even comprehend the hellishness of the reign of the Antichrist, and what kind of controls and imprisonments will take place.

Please show me this first part of your statement with scripture. Excuse me, we can comprehend the hellishness of the reign of the son of perdition and the one who gives him his power. All one has to do is search the history within the scriptures of this revived empire (beast out of the sea) that gives power to the son of perdition (beast out of the earth) that will try to weaken the saints of God and cause them to bow down and take its mark or be persecuted, even to death.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (3 1/2 years)

The saints of God (the Bride of Christ) will still be here on earth at this time.

Read Daniel Chapter 7, 9; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 to understand who the beast out of the sea is and who is used as the beast out of the earth who is the seventh and the eighth as being the son of perdition/false prophet/last antichrist.
 
the Rapture is imminent, and God decides the timing.

How can you say the rapture is about to happen, but then say God decides the timing. This really does not makes sense. You can't make a definite of something that is about to happen and then turn around and say only God knows when. When you say it's about to happen means very soon.

I agree with many things you post, but when it comes to the pretrib Rapture, which I too use to believe in, I can not agree with you, but only what is written in the OT and NT.

Let me ask you a question. Why was the pretrib Rapture never taught before the 1800's?
 
Well the words of Christ make it clear that the Rapture is indeed imminent. And the apostles concur.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Mt 24:44)
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:13)


Context brother, context.

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:36-39


The world does not know when He will return, but just as Noah was aware, so are we, because we know the signs he left us.



But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4




JLB
 
we who are alive and remain until the .COMING. of the Lord.

This should settle it. This should settle the timing of the rapture/resurrection.

Why is it not so Nathan12


Because he was taught false doctrine, and now it has a stronghold in his mind, so that it exalts itself against the knowledge of God.


Only knowing the truth, will set him free.


Prayer, and the truth of God’s word is powerful to pull down strongholds and everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.



JLB
 
Because he was taught false doctrine, and now it has a stronghold in his mind, so that it exalts itself against the knowledge of God.


Only knowing the truth, will set him free.


Prayer, and the truth of God’s word is powerful to pull down strongholds and everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.



JLB

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

This was a hard lesson for me to learn to break down the strongholds that these pretrib preachers instilled in my mind. I believed every word they spoke, because being young in the word without proper knowledge I read along with the partial scriptures they use not knowing yet the full context that led me to know what they teach is only in theory as they add imaginations to their teachings. None of this was ever taught before the 1800's.
 
My concern is that many who believe in a pretrib rapture will renounce Christ when God's wrath begins to be poured out and the beast will cause many to take it's mark. They will think everything they were taught was a lie and that there is no God and out of fear will take the mark of the beast sealing their fate forever.
 
Whom is Satan going to deceive if the Christians are gone?
If Satan already has the rest of them, what's the point?
If Satan is coming back as antichrist, pretending to be Christ, why would he come after Christ?

2Thess.2:1-9
Now we beseech you, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.
This itself shows that the gathering and coming are the same.

Be not shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word,nor by letter as from us.. referring to 1Thess.4:

Let no man DECEIVE YOU by any means, for THAT DAY (the gathering) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, (apostasy, defect from the truth)
And that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Satan.
Who opposeth and exalteth himself..
so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
pretending he is God

Now this is in order, no need to add this and that..

Verse 8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed,) back over to verse 3, that day shall not come, ( the gathering) the falling away, and that man of sin be revealed.)
Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.
Even Him, (God), whose coming is after the working of Satan...


Plainly, states, His coming, (gathering) takes place after the tribulation.

Lines up with Matt.24:29-31
Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION....
Shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds, then the gathering...


Mark 13:24-27
after the tribulation, then the gathering...

Matt.24:21-26

Then shall be great tribulation..
Then if any man shall say, Lo, Here is Christ, or there, BELIEVE IT NOT.
for there shall arise false Christs, showing great signs and wonders, if possible, deceive the elect.


Wherefore if they say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert, GO NOT FORTH, behold, He is in the secret chambers, BELIEVE IT NOT....

Don't be gathered up by the false one.

Jesus plainly warns us, to be not deceived by the false one.
Thus, referring to us Christians..

Remain a virgin bride, not joined with the Harlot.
 
How can you say the rapture is about to happen, but then say God decides the timing.
I did not say "it is about to happen". "Imminent" means it could happen today, tomorrow, or whenever God decides to make it happen. Enoch did not know when he would be raptured, but one day -- suddenly -- he was gone.

The apostles and apostolic churches expected it at that time as we see in the NT. We can expect it today also. IOW it is not dependent on any other event. However there is such a thing as "the fulness of the Gentiles" (the total number of Gentiles to be saved). And only God knows that number. When that number is fulfilled, the Church will be complete and taken up.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25)
 
I did not say "it is about to happen". "Imminent" means it could happen today, tomorrow, or whenever God decides to make it happen. Enoch did not know when he would be raptured, but one day -- suddenly -- he was gone.

The apostles and apostolic churches expected it at that time as we see in the NT. We can expect it today also. IOW it is not dependent on any other event. However there is such a thing as "the fulness of the Gentiles" (the total number of Gentiles to be saved). And only God knows that number. When that number is fulfilled, the Church will be complete and taken up.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25)
Luke 21:24
Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the gentiles, until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled.
Whom is at the dome of the rock? Gentiles
 
Please show me this first part of your statement with scripture.
While the prophecy of Daniel gives us insight into this, Revelation 13 gives us a complete summary of what is coming in the future.

4
And they worshipped the dragon [SATAN] which gave power unto the beast [THE ANTICHRIST]: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world...
11 And I beheld another beast [THE FALSE PROPHET] coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men...
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

What do we see here?
1. Satan and the Antichrist are given total TOTALITARIAN control over the inhabitants of the earth for 42 months (3 1/2 years). This is the reign of the Antichrist as the Dictator of the world (presenting himself as the Savior of the world).
2. Satan has supernatural powers to do miracles -- signs and lying wonders -- and he gives this power to both the Antichrist and the False Prophet.
3. These miracles are designed to deceive the world into believing that the Antichrist is God and Christ, while this Man of Sin blasphemes the true God mightily. In Daniel he is seen as the Arch Blasphemer.
4. The image of the beast is called "the Abomination of Desolation" in Daniel, and this will be set up in the future temple at Jerusalem for the whole world to worship. It will also appear to have a life of its own, another demonic manifestation.
5. All the inhabitants of the world will be coerced into worshiping Satan and the Antichrist, and into taking the Mark of the Beast upon pain of death.
6. The Antichrist will make war with the saints and will overcome them. And the saints who refuse to take this mark will be killed.
7. In Rev 20:4 we are told that they all will be beheaded.
8. This will literally be Hell on earth for 3 1/2 years.
 
Luke 21:24 Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the gentiles, until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled. Whom is at the dome of the rock? Gentiles
True. But not the Antichrist and his thugs. That is a future period of 3 1/2 years (42 months) corresponding to the 42 months in Revelation 13.
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Rev 11:2).
 
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

You have stated many times that the saints of God are Raptured before the events of Rev 13 so how do you explain this beast making war with the saints if they are no longer here at that time.

Rev 13 John saw a beast (beast is often referred to as nations in scripture) rise up out of the sea having seven heads and ten horns and upon his horns ten crowns, (crowns denotes Kings) and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. The beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15.

The seven heads are that of the Babylonian Empire, Medo/Persian Empire, Grecian Empire and Roman Empire that I explained earlier in who the ten nations were. The ten horns represent the nations the Roman Empire scattered to when the deadly wound was put upon them, Daniel 7:23-25; Rev 13. The deadly wound came in 1798 when General Berthier of France captured Pope Pius VI, who soon died in captivity in Valence, on August 29, 1799. Seven of these nations are the ancestors of the modern nations of Europe.

These ten nations were the Anglo-Saxons (English), the Franks (French), Suevi (Portuguese), Visigoths (Spanish), Burgundians (Swiss), Alemanni (Germans), Lombards (Italians), Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals in northern Africa. The last three being Ostrogoths, Heruli, and the Vandals had already been destroyed by the Roman Empire before their deadly wound came in 1798.

What was, was Roman rule from 538 AD with Emperor Justinian’s decree and under the military protection of Belisarius until the deadly wound, was not, came in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. This was the time when Rome persecuted the Christians and killed them which were approximately 500 million people slain for the cause of their faith in Jesus. In 1801 Napoleon made an agreement with Pope Pius II establishing Napoleon’s Organic Articles of granting the Tribunal and the Corps legislative partial control of the concordat in order to help the state monitor any politically harmful Catholic or Protestant movements or activities. The wound was largely healed in 1929 when Mussolini gave the Vatican back to the Pope and established it as a country in it's own right in the Lateran Treaty.

What was and was not and yet to come has always been the Roman Empire that has always persecuted Gods chosen from the foundation of the world whose name is found written in the Lambs book of life. The beast out of the sea is the revived Roman Empire as its deadly wound is now healed as we see in John’s vision as Satan gives this beast his power, seat and great authority. They, being those whose names are not found written in the Lambs book of life bow down to Satan and the beast (Roman Catholic Pontifex Maximus universal religious system) as they are deceived in having no truth or understanding found in them as they are lead about like a bull with a ring in its nose as they bow down to the pagan authority of the the beast out of the sea and out of the earth, Hosea 4:6, 7; 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Here is the patience and the faith of the saints as they wait upon the Lords return as the beast makes war against them. They will have to wholeheartedly draw on the Lords strength without hindrance while enduring the last battle of this Luciferian political, economic and false religious system as Satan continues to try and silence the word of God using the present Satanic Priesthood religious system, Matthew 24:9-13.

Here we see history repeating itself like the Inquisition and annihilation of the saints of God between 538 AD and 1798 with its inhuman torture chambers and burning people alive because they had Bibles in their possession as they were now enlightened with truth and would not conform to the beast out of the earth's religious system anymore.

Let us not forget also the Crusaders from 1095 through 1291 who indiscriminately would wipe out whole villages in their path as they traveled toward Jerusalem, for their so called holy wars and the great annihilation of the Jews under Hitler’s reign from 1941 through 1945 killing over six million Jews and burning Bibles written in other languages so the beast system could retain control teaching their heresies, 2 Peter 3:15-18. This Luciferian system will continue to persecute those to death who will not conform to their idealistic heresies, but once they kill the body what more can they do, Matthew 10:16-28; Luke 12:4, 5.
 
True. But not the Antichrist and his thugs. That is a future period of 3 1/2 years (42 months) corresponding to the 42 months in Revelation 13.
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Rev 11:2).

Someone please show me scripture that the word Antichrist (capitol A) is found written as this is what is written about antichrist:
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Rev 11:1, 2
This temple is not a literal temple that John is to measure as there never will be a third one built as the temple mount will never be given back to the Jews and here is the reason why. Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times all because Israel never repented of their sin of idolatry when they were allowed back into their land again in 538 BC after their seventy year Babylonian exile and the land fell under the leader of the Roman Empire that still has diplomatic ties with Jerusalem today.

When the second temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans other Roman temples were built there and destroyed during various revolts up to the fourth century. From the fourth century the temple mount laid undeveloped until the Muslim Siege of Jerusalem in 637 CE. Between 689-691 CE the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock which stands today, but now under renovations that have to do with the prophecy of the son of perdition in 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 and the great falling away before the return of Jesus.

John was to measure the Spiritual temple of God as being those who are truly in Christ through the Spiritual rebirth that worship Him in all truths, John 3:3-7, which make up the temple of God as being the body of Christ. The symbolic here represents God separating and protecting His people. The temple of God is no longer made by hand since the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, Matthew 27:50, 51; Acts 7:48-51. The temple of God is within man that has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that keeps himself undefiled before the Lord, Matthew 27:51; Mark 7:15-23; 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17.

The outer court represents that of the control the Gentiles will once again have over the Holy city as they take full control over Jerusalem and trampled it for the last three and a half years of the seven years tribulation period. The first three and a half years begin with the opening of the seventh seal and the last three and a half beginning with the seventh trumpet as this explains the seven year tribulation that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:21 as being the worst tribulation there has ever been nor will ever be again.
 
2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

This was a hard lesson for me to learn to break down the strongholds that these pretrib preachers instilled in my mind. I believed every word they spoke, because being young in the word without proper knowledge I read along with the partial scriptures they use not knowing yet the full context that led me to know what they teach is only in theory as they add imaginations to their teachings. None of this was ever taught before the 1800's.


Amen.
 
I did not say "it is about to happen". "Imminent" means it could happen today, tomorrow, or whenever God decides to make it happen. Enoch did not know when he would be raptured, but one day -- suddenly -- he was gone.

The apostles and apostolic churches expected it at that time as we see in the NT. We can expect it today also. IOW it is not dependent on any other event. However there is such a thing as "the fulness of the Gentiles" (the total number of Gentiles to be saved). And only God knows that number. When that number is fulfilled, the Church will be complete and taken up.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25)

I do apologize as when you used the word imminent I took it to mean you thought the Rapture was going to happen soon. Although soon has been since the disciples were looking for His return and every generation after them, but will only come on the last day when ever that will be in God's timing.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time of his life and that he was not found. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Enoch was only translated like being caught up in a whirlwind of visions he received from God and later gathered his family to him to him and told them to keep their integrity. Enoch was Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time of his life and that he was not found. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27. As all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, which means God took him as in numbering of his days on earth, Genesis 5:21-24. If you read the book of Enoch you would understan this.

The fullness of the Gentiles makes up all of Israel that will be saved. As Ephraim mixed himself up with other nations that was a foreshadowing of the Gentiles being grafted into Israel meaning all of Israel will be saved that have faith in God as being part of the covenant God made with Abraham, Genesis 12:1-3; 48:17-19; Hosea 7:8. Jesus told the Apostles to proclaim the Gospel first in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria and then to the ends of the world, Acts 1:8; 8:14-17, Samaria is the fulfillment of the restoration of Israel as both Jew and Gentiles both dwelt there.
 
Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven...
If God took him, and God is in Heaven, do you think that Enoch was consigned to some other place, remote from God? That would be bizarre and unscriptural. Enoch walked with God, and stayed with God in Heaven. And Elijah was also taken up to Heaven, and that is definitely not ambiguous. And after the resurrection of Christ, all the OT saints were taken from Sheol/Hades to Heaven (the New Jerusalem).
 
Someone please show me scripture that the word Antichrist (capitol A) is found written as this is what is written about antichrist...
Good Grief! This is the same as someone whining that the word "Rapture" is not found in English language bibles therefore it does not exist. Or the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible therefore it is not true.

Ever since the Reformation "the Antichrist" has been a term used by Christians to identify the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, the Beast, the Little Horn, the King of Fierce Countenance, etc.

"A later Swiss Calvinist Theologian, Francis Turretin, is famous for his polemic style and his Seventh Disputation: Whether it Can Be Proven the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist, published in 1661, is such a foundational treatment on the subject that it will be examined in more depth." [NOTE: The Reformers incorrectly believed that the Pope was the Antichrist]

There will be a man -- a renegade Jew -- who will present himself as Christ while opposing and blaspheming the true Christ. Jesus said that MANY false Christs would appear before His second coming, and he will be the ultimate False Christ (hence the Antichrist, in place of and opposed to Christ).
 
Good Grief! This is the same as someone whining that the word "Rapture" is not found in English language bibles therefore it does not exist. Or the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible therefore it is not true.

Ever since the Reformation "the Antichrist" has been a term used by Christians to identify the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, the Beast, the Little Horn, the King of Fierce Countenance, etc.

"A later Swiss Calvinist Theologian, Francis Turretin, is famous for his polemic style and his Seventh Disputation: Whether it Can Be Proven the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist, published in 1661, is such a foundational treatment on the subject that it will be examined in more depth." [NOTE: The Reformers incorrectly believed that the Pope was the Antichrist]

There will be a man -- a renegade Jew -- who will present himself as Christ while opposing and blaspheming the true Christ. Jesus said that MANY false Christs would appear before His second coming, and he will be the ultimate False Christ (hence the Antichrist, in place of and opposed to Christ).

I'm talking about capitalizing the "A" in antichrist making it the only one. As John writes there are many antichrist and this, being the son of perdition/false prophet/antichrist will be the last one. Antichrist is anyone who opposes Christ and rejects Him.

Good grief, where do you get that it will be a Jew? How does a Jew come out of the revived Roman Empire.
 
Good Grief! This is the same as someone whining that the word "Rapture" is not found in English language bibles therefore it does not exist. Or the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible therefore it is not true.

Ever since the Reformation "the Antichrist" has been a term used by Christians to identify the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, the Beast, the Little Horn, the King of Fierce Countenance, etc.

"A later Swiss Calvinist Theologian, Francis Turretin, is famous for his polemic style and his Seventh Disputation: Whether it Can Be Proven the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist, published in 1661, is such a foundational treatment on the subject that it will be examined in more depth." [NOTE: The Reformers incorrectly believed that the Pope was the Antichrist]

There will be a man -- a renegade Jew -- who will present himself as Christ while opposing and blaspheming the true Christ. Jesus said that MANY false Christs would appear before His second coming, and he will be the ultimate False Christ (hence the Antichrist, in place of and opposed to Christ).

Many people become famous for their theories, but theories are only speculations. This is how the whole Rapture thing came to be as being built on one man's theory. If you dig deeper into the mysteries of scripture by also applying the history and culture of Biblical times and the captivity of the Jews even under Hitlers reign of terror it is not hard to see who the son of perdition is.
 
We do not even comprehend the hellishness of the reign of the Antichrist, and what kind of controls and imprisonments will take place.
In the meanwhile, we can make rapture films and books. Ca$h out before the rapture happens.

This is my pet-peeve of pre-trib rapture, its kinda like a sci-fi movie. Thats all the book of Revelation is, since all the Christians will be raptured up anyway. None of our concern.
"We who are alive" is a reference to the generation of Christians on earth at the time of the Rapture. But that could be today, or 20 years from now. All we can say is that the Rapture is imminent, and God decides the timing.
Notice what you did there? You changed the word coming into "rapture".

There is no rapture, a separate occasion from the second coming where people mysteriously disappear. Its a fairytale.

The text of Thessalonians is clear: Jesus is COMING, and He will resurrect people, and those who happen to be alive at the time of said resurrection, (dead in Christ shall rise first) will be changed and receive glorified bodies.
 
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