Changed from pretribulation to post-tribulation view of the rapture

[for_his_glory]

Frosty, how can confused ideas be "precious truths"? The precious truth is the Blessed Hope, which is the imminent return of the divine Bridegroom for His Bride at the Rapture. This cannot be muddled up with wrath, and judgments on the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked.

Frosty, how can confused ideas be "precious truths"? The precious truth is the Blessed Hope, which is the imminent return of the divine Bridegroom for His Bride at the Rapture. This cannot be muddled up with wrath, and judgments on the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked.

Frosty, how can confused ideas be "precious truths"?

The precious truth is the Blessed Hope, which is the imminent return of the divine Bridegroom for His Bride at the Rapture. This cannot be muddled up with wrath, and judgments on the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God. There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord and be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chater 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[Nathan12]

There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation.

The sad truth is that today too many Christians want EXPLICIT statements about everything, when there are many things which are simply implied through bringing all relevant Scriptures together. So to respond what you have said about "false teachings", here is what Scripture reveals regarding why "we are taken out of here" before the Tribulation.

1. Do all Christians understand the purpose and significance of the Resurrection/Rapture? Hardly. Those who reject a Pre-Tribulation Rapture never once state what the actual purpose of the Rapture is, so that it can be untangled from the Tribulation (3 1/2 years) and Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years less a few months).

2. Therefore we must first get a proper understanding of salvation in all its aspects. Salvation is essentially "deliverance". But it is deliverance from many things: (1) deliverance from eternal Hell, (2) deliverance from the bondage of Satan, (3) deliverance from the penalty of sin, (4) deliverance from the power of sin, and (5) deliverance from the presence of sin.

3. So let's focus on deliverance from the presence of sin. The Bible makes it perfectly clear that even those who have been born again have not been delivered from the presence of the indwelling sin nature ("the old man" or "the flesh"). Therefore there are numerous exhortations to walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh. Yet, John tells us that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Therefore no saint is totally sinless, and must deal with present sins.

4. At the same time God never intended for His children to be eternally imperfect and subject to sinning from time to time. Indeed He predestined and elected His children "to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29,30), which includes being glorified. So the question arises "When will the saints be perfected -- physically, morally, spiritually (body, soul, and spirit)?"

5. And the answer is found in the doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture. This is when those saints who have passed on will be perfected and receive resurrected, immortal, glorified bodies, while the saints who are alive at that time will be totally transformed -- "we shall be changed" and "we shall be like Him".

6. The New Testament presents the Rapture are being "imminent". It could happen at any time. At the same time God knows exactly how many Gentiles will become a part of the Church before the Rapture takes place, and God has a number in mind. Thus Scripture speaks of the "fulness of the Gentiles" within the Church (the Body of Christ). Once that happens, the Church must be raptured so that (a) we may all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, and (b) we may all be present in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb (before the Second Coming of Christ).

7. While the Rapture is imminent, the Tribulation is tied to the appearance of the Antichrist. And we must also understand the purpose of the Tribulation (which is totally unrelated to the Church). The Tribulation is for the judgment of unbelieving Jews (but Christians are not subject to God's wrath). That is why it is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jacob meaning Israel, meaning Jews).
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people (see Rev 12): and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book... And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Jer 30: 4-7)

So what we see here pertains to "Israel and Judah" [the two kingdoms, meaning all the Jews at that time, confirmed by "the children of thy people" (the Jews)].
1. It is a time of tremendous distress.
2. It is a totally unique event such as has never been nor ever will be.
3. It is meant to judge all the unbelieving Jews.
4. A remnant shall be "delivered" or saved.
5. It will also correspond with the 3 1/2 reign of the Antichrist (the first half of Daniel's 70th week) for which there are other Scriptures which we cannot get into.

8. We also know from the New Testament that the Antichrist cannot take control until and unless the Divine Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is "taken out of the way". And since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church, it should be evident that the Church is also taken out of the way at that time. The Church (all the children of God) would expose the Antichrist for the fraud that he is if the Church were still on earth. And it is the Holy Spirit who ensures that sin and evil on this earth are presently kept within some bounds determined by God.

When we tie all this together (as we are duty bound to do) then it should be perfectly clear as to why the Church will be raptured from the earth before the Tribulation.

 

[ezra]

show me where the Bible uses the term pre trib mid trib or after trib ..them exact words.. the 3 studies are simply a study with Christians interpreting as just that the Bible SAYS BE READY and that is what we best be.

 

[Nathan12]

...show me where the Bible uses the term pre trib mid trib or after trib ..them exact words..

Like I said, Christians today want everything stated EXPLICITLY. Whereas many things are implied in Scripture. Sorry can't oblige, but you can arrive at those things through careful study.

 

[ezra]

but you can arrive at those things through careful study.

agreed but we make it say what we want

 

[Nathan12]

agreed but we make it say what we want

Not if we are honest and serious about rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Which includes studying to show ourselves approved unto God, and focusing strictly on what Scripture teaches, not what others assume it says (while separating metaphors from plain statements). Let's take an example: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (Jn 3:17)

1. Did God send His son into the world to condemn (damn) the world? NO
2. Did God send Him so that the whole world might be saved through Him? ABSOLUTELY

In spite of this very plain Scripture, there are those who wrest this verse to claim that "the world" does not mean the whole world of humanity, but simply "the elect". So then the next question is "If that is what God meant, then why did He not simply put "the elect" in place of "the world"? And thus we discover dishonest handling of the Word of Truth.

 

[JLB]

While the Rapture is imminent

The rapture is not imminent.


The rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15


Why do you keep posting your opinion when the scripture plainly states that the rapture and resurrection happen at the coming of the Lord?

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

The sad truth is that today too many Christians want EXPLICIT statements about everything, when there are many things which are simply implied through bringing all relevant Scriptures together. So to respond what you have said about "false teachings", here is what Scripture reveals regarding why "we are taken out of here" before the Tribulation.

1. Do all Christians understand the purpose and significance of the Resurrection/Rapture? Hardly. Those who reject a Pre-Tribulation Rapture never once state what the actual purpose of the Rapture is, so that it can be untangled from the Tribulation (3 1/2 years) and Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years less a few months).

2. Therefore we must first get a proper understanding of salvation in all its aspects. Salvation is essentially "deliverance". But it is deliverance from many things: (1) deliverance from eternal Hell, (2) deliverance from the bondage of Satan, (3) deliverance from the penalty of sin, (4) deliverance from the power of sin, and (5) deliverance from the presence of sin.

3. So let's focus on deliverance from the presence of sin. The Bible makes it perfectly clear that even those who have been born again have not been delivered from the presence of the indwelling sin nature ("the old man" or "the flesh"). Therefore there are numerous exhortations to walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh. Yet, John tells us that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Therefore no saint is totally sinless, and must deal with present sins.

4. At the same time God never intended for His children to be eternally imperfect and subject to sinning from time to time. Indeed He predestined and elected His children "to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29,30), which includes being glorified. So the question arises "When will the saints be perfected -- physically, morally, spiritually (body, soul, and spirit)?"

5. And the answer is found in the doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture. This is when those saints who have passed on will be perfected and receive resurrected, immortal, glorified bodies, while the saints who are alive at that time will be totally transformed -- "we shall be changed" and "we shall be like Him".

6. The New Testament presents the Rapture are being "imminent". It could happen at any time. At the same time God knows exactly how many Gentiles will become a part of the Church before the Rapture takes place, and God has a number in mind. Thus Scripture speaks of the "fulness of the Gentiles" within the Church (the Body of Christ). Once that happens, the Church must be raptured so that (a) we may all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, and (b) we may all be present in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb (before the Second Coming of Christ).

7. While the Rapture is imminent, the Tribulation is tied to the appearance of the Antichrist. And we must also understand the purpose of the Tribulation (which is totally unrelated to the Church). The Tribulation is for the judgment of unbelieving Jews (but Christians are not subject to God's wrath). That is why it is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jacob meaning Israel, meaning Jews).
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people (see Rev 12): and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book... And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Jer 30: 4-7)

So what we see here pertains to "Israel and Judah" [the two kingdoms, meaning all the Jews at that time, confirmed by "the children of thy people" (the Jews)].
1. It is a time of tremendous distress.
2. It is a totally unique event such as has never been nor ever will be.
3. It is meant to judge all the unbelieving Jews.
4. A remnant shall be "delivered" or saved.
5. It will also correspond with the 3 1/2 reign of the Antichrist (the first half of Daniel's 70th week) for which there are other Scriptures which we cannot get into.

8. We also know from the New Testament that the Antichrist cannot take control until and unless the Divine Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is "taken out of the way". And since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church, it should be evident that the Church is also taken out of the way at that time. The Church (all the children of God) would expose the Antichrist for the fraud that he is if the Church were still on earth. And it is the Holy Spirit who ensures that sin and evil on this earth are presently kept within some bounds determined by God.

When we tie all this together (as we are duty bound to do) then it should be perfectly clear as to why the Church will be raptured from the earth before the Tribulation.

1. Most Christians know what being caught up to Christ is. The word Rapture is not found in scripture. By all the last day scriptures we have given shows the saints of God who are alive at His coming we be caught up to him on the last day. There is only one tribulation period of God's great wrath being poured out into the earth beginning with the first trumpet and ending with the seventh trumpet on the last day. Those who are of Christ will be kept from it affecting them as it will the unjust as God will continue to supply our need during this time as we stand in a greater faith. Scripture does not say how long the first six trumpets will last, but we know the seveth ushers in the 3 1/2 years of the son pf perdition taking his seat in Jerusalem causing all to take its mark or be held captive or killed.

2. I agree
3. I agree
4. We were created in the image of God to walk in all His righteousness and be obedient to His commands, but all have fallen short of that. God's grace has given us the chance to reconcile ourselves back to Him through that of Christ Jesus and His finished works on the cross as we humble ourselves before Him with a heart of repentance. God transform our inner man where the Holy Spirit now dwells through the Spiritual rebirth from above. Our flesh will always sin and that is why we need to be walking in the Spirit as we crucify this flesh daily. When Christ returns on the last day after the seventh trumpet then the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality before we are gathered in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

5. Pertain to those in their graves: John 5:28. When does this happen, John 6:40 Pertaining to those alive at His coming: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. When are we changed: 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.

6. I no longer use the word Rapture as scripture calls it being caught up to Jesus, but agree with everything except being in heaven as that goes against John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

7. Scripture never defines just one Antichrist with a capitol "A". 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
The last antichrist is the son of perdition, 1 Thessalonians 2:3-12; Rev 13:11-18. The time of the greatest tribulation the world has ever seen and will see no more is that of God's great wrath being poured out into the world during the seven trumpets sounding and is compared to the time of Jacobs trouble as like Jacob God will protect His own from His wrath touching them. It's not about Jews or Gentiles as God's wrath is poured out into the world for the last time in hopes that all would turn back to Him.

This is prophecy of the end of days in Daniel 12:1-3 which is the same prophecy in Isaiah 26:20, 21 that we are to hide in a safe place for 3 1/2 years where God will take care of us during the deceptive time of the son of perdition, being the beast out of the earth in Rev 13. God will deliver us from this abomination when Christ returns and destroys the beast and the false prophet casting them into the lake of fire as we are then caught up to meet Him in the air and be with Him forever and ever.

8. I do not agree

Revelations is given to all nations and tongues that live throughout the whole world as in Jew and Gentile. Israel is mainly mentioned as that is the era the scriptures were written in, but not all of Israel is Gods chosen people. Those who are washed in the blood of the Lamb are joined as a branch with Israel as God is the root of that branch and those who are sealed by His Holy Spirit are His own who find favor in Him, Romans 11:11-31. This is why our attention needs to be on those things that are happening in Israel especially Jerusalem as being Gods Holy City.

 

[for_his_glory]

The sad truth is that today too many Christians want EXPLICIT statements about everything, when there are many things which are simply implied through bringing all relevant Scriptures together. So to respond what you have said about "false teachings", here is what Scripture reveals regarding why "we are taken out of here" before the Tribulation.

1. Do all Christians understand the purpose and significance of the Resurrection/Rapture? Hardly. Those who reject a Pre-Tribulation Rapture never once state what the actual purpose of the Rapture is, so that it can be untangled from the Tribulation (3 1/2 years) and Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years less a few months).

2. Therefore we must first get a proper understanding of salvation in all its aspects. Salvation is essentially "deliverance". But it is deliverance from many things: (1) deliverance from eternal Hell, (2) deliverance from the bondage of Satan, (3) deliverance from the penalty of sin, (4) deliverance from the power of sin, and (5) deliverance from the presence of sin.

3. So let's focus on deliverance from the presence of sin. The Bible makes it perfectly clear that even those who have been born again have not been delivered from the presence of the indwelling sin nature ("the old man" or "the flesh"). Therefore there are numerous exhortations to walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh. Yet, John tells us that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Therefore no saint is totally sinless, and must deal with present sins.

4. At the same time God never intended for His children to be eternally imperfect and subject to sinning from time to time. Indeed He predestined and elected His children "to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29,30), which includes being glorified. So the question arises "When will the saints be perfected -- physically, morally, spiritually (body, soul, and spirit)?"

5. And the answer is found in the doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture. This is when those saints who have passed on will be perfected and receive resurrected, immortal, glorified bodies, while the saints who are alive at that time will be totally transformed -- "we shall be changed" and "we shall be like Him".

6. The New Testament presents the Rapture are being "imminent". It could happen at any time. At the same time God knows exactly how many Gentiles will become a part of the Church before the Rapture takes place, and God has a number in mind. Thus Scripture speaks of the "fulness of the Gentiles" within the Church (the Body of Christ). Once that happens, the Church must be raptured so that (a) we may all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, and (b) we may all be present in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb (before the Second Coming of Christ).

7. While the Rapture is imminent, the Tribulation is tied to the appearance of the Antichrist. And we must also understand the purpose of the Tribulation (which is totally unrelated to the Church). The Tribulation is for the judgment of unbelieving Jews (but Christians are not subject to God's wrath). That is why it is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jacob meaning Israel, meaning Jews).
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people (see Rev 12): and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book... And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Jer 30: 4-7)

So what we see here pertains to "Israel and Judah" [the two kingdoms, meaning all the Jews at that time, confirmed by "the children of thy people" (the Jews)].
1. It is a time of tremendous distress.
2. It is a totally unique event such as has never been nor ever will be.
3. It is meant to judge all the unbelieving Jews.
4. A remnant shall be "delivered" or saved.
5. It will also correspond with the 3 1/2 reign of the Antichrist (the first half of Daniel's 70th week) for which there are other Scriptures which we cannot get into.

8. We also know from the New Testament that the Antichrist cannot take control until and unless the Divine Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is "taken out of the way". And since the Holy Spirit indwells the Church, it should be evident that the Church is also taken out of the way at that time. The Church (all the children of God) would expose the Antichrist for the fraud that he is if the Church were still on earth. And it is the Holy Spirit who ensures that sin and evil on this earth are presently kept within some bounds determined by God.

When we tie all this together (as we are duty bound to do) then it should be perfectly clear as to why the Church will be raptured from the earth before the Tribulation.

BTW we have to be explicit when it comes to what is already written as nothing is implied that is not revealed.

 

[Nathan12]

BTW we have to be explicit when it comes to what is already written as nothing is implied that is not revealed.

And it is often revealed without being stated explicitly.

 

[Nathan12]

The rapture is not imminent.

Well the words of Christ make it clear that the Rapture is indeed imminent. And the apostles concur.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Mt 24:44)
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:13)
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. (Lk 12:40)
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3:20,21)
Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. (Phil 4:5)
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. (1 Thess 5:4-6)
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Tit 2:13,14)
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. (Jas 5:8)

On the other hand, the Second Coming of Christ is only AFTER the Great Tribulation and the shaking of the heavens and the earth.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be... Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:21,29,30)

 

[Nathan12]

By all the last day scriptures we have given shows the saints of God who are alive at His coming we be caught up to him on the last day.

The "last day" is reserved for wrath and supernatural fire over the whole earth and the atmospheric heavens before the New Heavens and the New Earth are established: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up... Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Pet 3:10,13) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Rev 21:1)

The Rapture and the Second Coming take place long before "the last day". The literal last day. As I said, there is a definite sequence of events given to us in the Bible. So here is the sequence of events:
1. The great apostasy (falling away) within Christendom (currently seen)
2. The building of the third temple in Jerusalem (to be hijacked by the Antichrist)
3. The Resurrection/Rapture of the Church
4. The removal of the Holy Spirit to allow the Antichrist 3 1/2 years
5. The appearance and reign of the Antichrist
6. The Tribulation for unbelieving Jews (3 1/2 years)
7. The Abomination of Desolation set up in the temple
8. The Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years less a few months)
9. The cataclysmic cosmic events -- the shaking of the heavens and the earth
10. The Second Coming of Christ and Armageddon
11. The redemption and restoration of Israel
12. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ
13. The battle of Gog and Magog with Satan at the helm
14. The Great White Throne Judgment
15. The supernatural burning up of the earth and the atmosphere
16. The establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth

 

[for_his_glory]

When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14.

God's protection is absolute to those who escape into the wilderness and trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.

Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth.

God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever.

Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.


This great mountain burning with fire could be another meteor or even a series of meteors sent down from heaven at one time, but on an extremely larger scale as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.

These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.

With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.

Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.

Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.

This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.

This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.

There is only one tribulation period being the seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath being poured out into the world. This will be the greatest time of our faith as we trust God to supply our need like those in the exodus. Immediately after the tribulations the seven trumpets usher in, which includes the mark of the beast Jesus will return as at that time we are caught up to meet Him in the air. From the air He will destroy the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming as He only needs to speak their destruction and casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time and then released as one last effort to destroy the saints, but is cast into the lake of fire. Final judgments are made then this present heaven and earth will be made new again and then the New Jerusalem is ushered down where we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[FrostyKnuckles]

There is only one second coming of the Lord brother.


As the scriptures plainly show, the resurrection and rapture occur at the second coming of the Lord.


Context is critical.


Here is the context.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

This scripture here, shows the rapture and resurrection occurring at the coming of the Lord.



JLB

we who are alive and remain until the .COMING. of the Lord.

This should settle it. This should settle the timing of the rapture/resurrection.

Why is it not so Nathan12

 

[FrostyKnuckles]

The "last day" is reserved for wrath and supernatural fire over the whole earth and the atmospheric heavens before the New Heavens and the New Earth are established: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up... Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Pet 3:10,13) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Rev 21:1)

The Rapture and the Second Coming take place long before "the last day". The literal last day. As I said, there is a definite sequence of events given to us in the Bible. So here is the sequence of events:
1. The great apostasy (falling away) within Christendom (currently seen)
2. The building of the third temple in Jerusalem (to be hijacked by the Antichrist)
3. The Resurrection/Rapture of the Church
4. The removal of the Holy Spirit to allow the Antichrist 3 1/2 years
5. The appearance and reign of the Antichrist
6. The Tribulation for unbelieving Jews (3 1/2 years)
7. The Abomination of Desolation set up in the temple
8. The Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years less a few months)
9. The cataclysmic cosmic events -- the shaking of the heavens and the earth
10. The Second Coming of Christ and Armageddon
11. The redemption and restoration of Israel
12. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ
13. The battle of Gog and Magog with Satan at the helm
14. The Great White Throne Judgment
15. The supernatural burning up of the earth and the atmosphere
16. The establishment of the New Heavens and the New Earth

So do you disagree with John 6:40 where resurrection is said to be on the LAST DAY not "long before the last day" as you stated.

Another thing is, if Church is removed so that we wont "expose the antichrist" well thats a dud argument because, from what I hear the pre-tribbers say, there is going to be a bunch of people geting saved in "the tribulation", so why wont these saints expose the antichrist?

 

[ezra]

what I hear the pre-tribbers say, there is going to be a bunch of people geting saved in "the tribulation"

i dont as if i am pre trib more like closer to mid not that it really matter. most get some of that teaching as refusing the mark of the beast ==martyr ..i would not bank on that .due to the fact sev things imo holyspirit gone we must be drawn.. it would take pure self restraint not to take the mark. last if your left behind pretrib has its points.. if your that far gone imo you go into survival mode ..i could be wrong that is why i say imo

 

[for_his_glory]

Here is something else to think about. If we are raptured before God's wrath during the seven trumpets sounding, which also at the seventh trumpet includes all of that of Rev 13, then what would be the purpose of God's wrath and the 3 1/2 years of the beast reign on earth. When we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air the Holy Spirit is also taken up for the Holy Spirit dwells in the hearts of the believer. At this time of being caught up the door of God's salvation is closed forever.

 

[Nathan12]

So do you disagree with John 6:40 where resurrection is said to be on the LAST DAY not "long before the last day" as you stated.

If we understand -- through rightly dividing the Word of Truth -- that "the last day" (as applied to the resurrections) extends for over 1,000 years, then there is no disagreement. Christ summed up briefly what is further explained in Scripture, which includes both the first and the second resurrections.

Another thing is, if Church is removed so that we wont "expose the antichrist" well thats a dud argument because, from what I hear the pre-tribbers say, there is going to be a bunch of people geting saved in "the tribulation", so why wont these saints expose the antichrist?

They will be under a supernaturally totalitarian regime and will all be beheaded. We do not even comprehend the hellishness of the reign of the Antichrist, and what kind of controls and imprisonments will take place.

 

[Nathan12]

we who are alive and remain until the .COMING. of the Lord. This should settle it. This should settle the timing of the rapture/resurrection. Why is it not so Nathan12

"We who are alive" is a reference to the generation of Christians on earth at the time of the Rapture. But that could be today, or 20 years from now. All we can say is that the Rapture is imminent, and God decides the timing.

 

[for_his_glory]

If we understand -- through rightly dividing the Word of Truth -- that "the last day" (as applied to the resurrections) extends for over 1,000 years, then there is no disagreement. Christ summed up briefly what is further explained in Scripture, which includes both the first and the second resurrections.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the judgement seat of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.