Changed from pretribulation to post-tribulation view of the rapture

[Nathan12]

All three events take place at the coming of the Lord.

We have all this confusion because the same Greek word for "coming" -- parousia -- is used for BOTH the Rapture and the Second Coming. That is why context is critical.

The best way to understand how and why the two events are separate and distinct and separated by at least 7-10 years is that at the Rapture Christ comes FOR His saints, but at the Second Coming, He comes WITH His saints (and angels). And He cannot come with His saints unless He had first come for His saints.

 

[for_his_glory]

I got you.

Its easily figured out by cross-referencing scriptures.

It ironically is, the exact opposite of what we are told, its GOOD to not be taken. To be taken means you go into judgment:


Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Look up Revelation 19, you see Jesus returning, birds gathering to eat the flesh of mighty men, captains etc, gathered against Christ. NOT GOOD.

Another witness:


Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Again, in context, who was taken in Noah's flood? Thewicked, flood came and took them all away.

So there you go, its not a good thing to be taken. This same idea is carried in the Parables of Matthew 13 too

I like your perspective on this with the scripture you shared. It's opposite of what I posted in #119, but yet can be seen in both ways.

 

[JLB]

We have all this confusion because the same Greek word for "coming" -- parousia -- is used for BOTH the Rapture and the Second Coming. That is why context is critical.

The best way to understand how and why the two events are separate and distinct and separated by at least 7-10 years is that at the Rapture Christ comes FOR His saints, but at the Second Coming, He comes WITH His saints (and angels). And He cannot come with His saints unless He had first come for His saints.

We have all this clarity, because the rapture occurs at His Coming.


So does the Resurrection as well as the destruction of the wicked.


Very simple.

No confusion what so ever.


Start with the first two things, the resurrection and rapture.



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

• And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them.

From this passage we see the Resurrection and Rapture are one event.



Do you agree?




JLB

 

[Nathan12]

... From this passage we see the Resurrection and Rapture are one event. Do you agree?

Yes. This event should be properly called the Resurrection/Rapture as I generally designate it. But it is far removed from the Second Coming of Christ, for three significant reasons:

1. We (Christians) must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (in Heaven)
2. We (Christians) must all be present for the Marriage of the Lamb (in Heaven)
3. We (Christians) must all descend with Christ at His Second Coming.

It is only after the Great Tribulation (and the cataclysmic cosmic events which follow) that Christ descends to earth with power and great glory. Therefore the Resurrection/Rapture must occur BEFORE the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. On the other hand, you are trying to make everything one event, which is an impossibility.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes. This event should be properly called the Resurrection/Rapture as I generally designate it. But it is far removed from the Second Coming of Christ, for three significant reasons:

1. We (Christians) must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (in Heaven)
2. We (Christians) must all be present for the Marriage of the Lamb (in Heaven)
3. We (Christians) must all descend with Christ at His Second Coming.

It is only after the Great Tribulation (and the cataclysmic cosmic events which follow) that Christ descends to earth with power and great glory. Therefore the Resurrection/Rapture must occur BEFORE the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. On the other hand, you are trying to make everything one event, which is an impossibility.

By what you say here, you have Christ returning twice, but yet neglect any scripture to support this or a 7-10 year theory.

 

[FrostyKnuckles]

Yes. This event should be properly called the Resurrection/Rapture as I generally designate it. But it is far removed from the Second Coming of Christ, for three significant reasons:

1. We (Christians) must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (in Heaven)
2. We (Christians) must all be present for the Marriage of the Lamb (in Heaven)
3. We (Christians) must all descend with Christ at His Second Coming.

It is only after the Great Tribulation (and the cataclysmic cosmic events which follow) that Christ descends to earth with power and great glory. Therefore the Resurrection/Rapture must occur BEFORE the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. On the other hand, you are trying to make everything one event, which is an impossibility.

Just quickly mentioning here, #3, the church goes to meet the Lord in the air. As was the custom in ancient times for the people to go outside the city gates to meet a coming King, and escort him in, nothing unusual, and no two-comings required to make that happen.

#1 Judgment seat of Christ, this is one where I disagree with most Christians, but I see no multiple "judgments", i believe everyone is judged on the last day, righteous and the unrighteous, and thats the judgment seat of Christ, in Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus comes in glory, all nations are gathered, sheep and goats separated some to everlasting judgment, some to eternal life. This same sequence is in ALL the parables of Jesus, the fishnets, wheat and tares, its also in 2 Thess 1:6-8 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. Last day, judgment of all, John 5:28-29, one and done!

#2 Happens after the second coming, its announced in Revelation 19 before the second coming as "marriage supper of the Lamb .has come" and then it says "bride has made herself ready" and "blessed are those invited".

 

[Nathan12]

... but I see no multiple "judgments"...

Whether you see them or not, they are clearly there:

1. The Judgment Seat of Christ for Christians (in Heaven)
2. All the divine judgments (wrath) on earth during the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (Rev 6-18)
3. The judgment of unbelieving Jews during the "Time of Jacob's trouble"(the Tribulation)
4. The judgment of the Beast and the False Prophet and their armies at the battle of Armageddon
5. The judgment of the sheep and goat nations after the Second Coming of Christ and before the Millennium
6. The judgment of Satan and his armies at the battle of Gog and Magog after the Millennium
7. The judgment of the unsaved dead at the Great White Throne at the end of the age
8. The judgment of the corrupted earth at the supernatural burning up of the whole earth in preparation for the New Heavens and the New Earth.

 

[Nathan12]

By what you say here, you have Christ returning twice, but yet neglect any scripture to support this or a 7-10 year theory.

As I had already explained earlier, Christ does NOT return to earth twice at all. At the Resurrection/Rapture He comes momentarily "in the air" and catches up all the saints in a nanosecond (the twinkling of an eye). So kindly read these passages carefully and understand that it has nothing in common with the Second Coming:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:16,17)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:51,52)

In science fiction, this would be Teleportation. In the Bible this is the Resurrection/Rapture.

 

[JLB]

Yes. This event should be properly called the Resurrection/Rapture as I generally designate it. But it is far removed from the Second Coming of Christ, for three significant reasons:

Brother,


Are you reading the scripture I quoted from
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17?

It plainly says COMING OF THE LORD.

The context of the resurrection and rapture is the coming of the Lord.

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

What coming would this be if not the second coming, since He has already come once?


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Whether you see them or not, they are clearly there:

1. The Judgment Seat of Christ for Christians (in Heaven)
2. All the divine judgments (wrath) on earth during the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (Rev 6-18)
3. The judgment of unbelieving Jews during the "Time of Jacob's trouble"(the Tribulation)
4. The judgment of the Beast and the False Prophet and their armies at the battle of Armageddon
5. The judgment of the sheep and goat nations after the Second Coming of Christ and before the Millennium
6. The judgment of Satan and his armies at the battle of Gog and Magog after the Millennium
7. The judgment of the unsaved dead at the Great White Throne at the end of the age
8. The judgment of the corrupted earth at the supernatural burning up of the whole earth in preparation for the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Some Christians believe in three different judgments, even though you list eight.

1. judgment of sheep and goats - Matthew 25:31-33
2. judgment of believers works referred to as the bema seat of Christ - 2 Corinthians 5:10
3. judgement of unbelievers at the great white throne - Revelation 20:11-15

There are not three, but only one final judgment, but two different books opened at the great white throne judgment. Scripture is clear at this time of the great white throne judgment the books that are opened are the book of life where those who are of Christ will be judged for their deeds and receive their promised inheritance of eternal life with the Father as their names were found in the book of life. The other book that is opened is also Christ judgment, John 5:22; John 5:26, 27, of those whose deeds led them to reject Him and they are judged and receive their inheritance of eternal punishment in the lake of fire. God has commited all judgment unto Christ and at His second coming on the last day, John 6:40, all who are alive and asleep in their grave will hear the voice of Christ to rise, John 5:28, 29, and then final judgment is declared. Everyone will stand before God at the great white throne judgment to give an account of themselves as Christ will judge everyone for their deeds. Some will hear "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" and others will hear "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels".

When Christ returns on the last day, John 6:40, every eye will see Him come in the clouds the same way He ascended up to heaven, even those who pierced Him, Acts 1:11; Rev 1:7. Notice where it says even those who pierced Him as they are even now in their grave. On the last day the one and only resurrection of all who are in their grave will hear His voice and come forth out of their grave. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28, 29.

At the great white throne judgement Jesus will be seated on His throne of glory as God commits all judgment unto the Son, John 5:22. The books will be opened, including the Lamb's book of life, and all will be judged as Jesus will then gather all nations (people) before Him and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. The sheep will hear Jesus say: "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world". The goats will hear Jesus say: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels", Matthew 25:31-46.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Nathan12]

There are not three, but only one final judgment, but two different books opened at the great white throne judgment.

As the context makes clear (Rev 20:11-15), this judgment is for those who are NOT found in the Lamb's book of Life. Strictly for the unsaved. Therefore this is only one of several judgments, and you cannot deny that the eight judgments I have listed are to be found in Scripture.

 

[Nathan12]

Brother, Are you reading the scripture I quoted from 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17? It plainly says COMING OF THE LORD.

As I noted in another post parousia (coming) is applied to BOTH the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming. That does not mean they are identical. Context is critical.

 

[for_his_glory]

As I had already explained earlier, Christ does NOT return to earth twice at all. At the Resurrection/Rapture He comes momentarily "in the air" and catches up all the saints in a nanosecond (the twinkling of an eye). So kindly read these passages carefully and understand that it has nothing in common with the Second Coming:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:16,17)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:51,52)

In science fiction, this would be Teleportation. In the Bible this is the Resurrection/Rapture.

We are gathered up to the clouds, both alive at His coming and those who are a sleep in their graves, to meet the Lord in the air as we will ever be with him. This we can agree on.

But now put, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 with Rev 19 you will get the full context of Christ second coming in the air and us being caught up to meet Him in the air.

Rev 19:1-11 we read of the marriage supper of the Lamb as the Bride (alive at His coming and those a sleep in their graves) has made herself ready for her Groom as they are about to be caught up to meet Jesus in the air. From Rev 19:11-21 we read Jesus descends down from heaven with His army of angels, not the saints, and in the air sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him as they are caught up to the air to evermore be with Him as He destroys the beast and the false prophet by the brightness of His coming 2 Thessalonians 2:8, 9.

This all occurs on the last day, John 5:28, 29; 6:40, not some 7 to 10 years, which is not found in scripture before God's great wrath during the first six trumpets being poured out into the world. It's only man's theory starting in in the early 1800's that have deceived others into believing in a feel good teaching of a pretrib rapture as even I used to believe this at one time, but not anymore since I started studying the full context of the scriptures.

 

[Nathan12]

But now put, Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 with Rev 19 you will get the full context of Christ second coming in the air and us being caught up to meet Him in the air.

No you cannot put those three passages together. In Matthew 24 Christ sends out His holy angels to the four corners of the earth to gather the believing Jewish remnant ("the elect") AFTER His second coming to earth with His saints and angels (Rev 19). But the Resurrection/Rapture has nothing in common with this, other than in both case a trumpet is mentioned, and the same Greek word parousia is used for "coming". And all trumpets are not the same, or sounded for the same reasons as we know from a proper study of the trumpets.

There is no spiritual, scriptural, or logical reason to make a mishmash of the Rapture and the Second Coming. One is for SALVATION while the other is for WRATH AND DAMNATION.

 

[for_his_glory]

As the context makes clear (Rev 20:11-15), this judgment is for those who are NOT found in the Lamb's book of Life. Strictly for the unsaved. Therefore this is only one of several judgments, and you cannot deny that the eight judgments I have listed are to be found in Scripture.

You need to go back and read those verses as two books are opened as one being the Lamb's book of life and the other book being those names that are written that have rejected Christ. I already explained this in post #130.

 

[for_his_glory]

No you cannot put those three passages together. In Matthew 24 Christ sends out His holy angels to the four corners of the earth to gather the believing Jewish remnant ("the elect") AFTER His second coming to earth with His saints and angels (Rev 19). But the Resurrection/Rapture has nothing in common with this, other than in both case a trumpet is mentioned, and the same Greek word parousia is used for "coming". And all trumpets are not the same, or sounded for the same reasons as we know from a proper study of the trumpets.

There is no spiritual, scriptural, or logical reason to make a mishmash of the Rapture and the Second Coming. One is for SALVATION while the other is for WRATH AND DAMNATION.

How can you deny the full context as in all the scriptures we have given you. I use to believe as you do, but no longer will I fall prey to theories that have no proof in the scriptures.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Where does it say anything about the believing Jewish remnant ("the elect") in these verses?

Galatians 3:28 and Ephesians 1:3-7 teaches us that the elect of God are those he has chosen in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. These are they that have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

 

[FrostyKnuckles]

No you cannot put those three passages together. In Matthew 24 Christ sends out His holy angels to the four corners of the earth to gather the believing Jewish remnant ("the elect") AFTER His second coming to earth with His saints and angels (Rev 19). But the Resurrection/Rapture has nothing in common with this, other than in both case a trumpet is mentioned, and the same Greek word parousia is used for "coming". And all trumpets are not the same, or sounded for the same reasons as we know from a proper study of the trumpets.

There is no spiritual, scriptural, or logical reason to make a mishmash of the Rapture and the Second Coming. One is for SALVATION while the other is for WRATH AND DAMNATION.

This is just dispensational theology. I would urge you to reconsider, its a new and foreign doctrine unheard of in church history, it nullifies and neutralizes scripture. It robs from us precious truths and just throws them to the "its to the jews" bin. There is one people of God, those of faith. Galatians 3:26-29 Ephesians 2 and so on. One new man in Christ. ALl promises in Christ are "YEA" as Paul said. Christians are Abraham's seed, through faith in Christ (Gal 3:28-29) and share in the promises, the inheritor being CHRIST JESUS

Your list of judgments are made up like this:

1. Judgment on earth (noah's day)
2. Judgment on Israel (Babylonian captivity)
3. Judgment on jerusalem (70ad)

etc etc. "See you cant refute those judgments are in the bible"

There is one judgment with eternal consequences, Matthew 25:31-46 makes it clear, no temporal life, but eternal. Read all the parables, wheat and tares grow together UNTIL the end of the world, then separated at the last day. NOT before that in some rapture theory

 

[JLB]

As I noted in another post parousia (coming) is applied to BOTH the Resurrection/Rapture and the Second Coming. That does not mean they are identical. Context is critical.

There is only one second coming of the Lord brother.


As the scriptures plainly show, the resurrection and rapture occur at the second coming of the Lord.


Context is critical.


Here is the context.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

This scripture here, shows the rapture and resurrection occurring at the coming of the Lord.



JLB

 

[Nathan12]

It robs from us precious truths...

Frosty, how can confused ideas be "precious truths"?

The precious truth is the Blessed Hope, which is the imminent return of the divine Bridegroom for His Bride at the Rapture. This cannot be muddled up with wrath, and judgments on the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked.

 

[JLB]

The precious truth is the Blessed Hope, which is the imminent return

His return is definitely not imminent nor will it come as a thief in the night for the Church.


But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:4



JLB