Child Baptism?

[Alabaster]

read on down alabaster he states is a new ager.

 

[francisdesales]

No, baptism does not remove our sin.

Romans 6:2-3 NLT says NOTHING about removing sin!
Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death?

I am afaid that you are not reading the verse. We are joined to Christ's death through BAPTISM. Now, when we united to Christ's death on the cross, what happens, Christian??? THAT is how we are freed from sin, how we are washed with the blood of Christ: baptism, the act of faith in Christ...

Regards

 

[WalkingOnAir]

If you would like to Pm me I want to keep this out of his thread from now on out of respect I will answer any and all Pms if you want to talk. :D

 

[Alabaster]

[/B]


I am afaid that you are not reading the verse. We are joined to Christ's death through BAPTISM. Now, when we united to Christ's death on the cross, what happens, Christian??? THAT is how we are freed from sin, how we are washed with the blood of Christ: baptism, the act of faith in Christ...

Regards

We are washed in the blood before we come to baptism. The command for baptism is only to believers.

We do not baptize unbelievers--ever.

Show us all where unbelievers are required to be baptized.

 

[A-Christian]

Ok, I went back and reread this thread from the beginning and it seems that the anti-infant baptism side isn't making a clear chapter-verse argument for their beliefs against infant baptism, even though a moderator ask for scriptural backing.

One thing scripture does tell us is that Peter said that everyone needed to be baptized and that entire households were baptized. If "age of reasoning" was the scriptural rule, it should be in the scripture, but yet it's not. Couple that with the fact that outside of scripture, the earliest Christians are on record as practicing infant baptism.

Anyone have chapter and verse they want to add in support of age of reasoning?

 

[Alabaster]

Ok, I went back and reread this thread from the beginning and it seems that the anti-infant baptism side isn't making a clear chapter-verse argument for their beliefs against infant baptism, even though a moderator ask for scriptural backing.

One thing scripture does tell us is that Peter said that everyone needed to be baptized and that entire households were baptized. If "age of reasoning" was the scriptural rule, it should be in the scripture, but yet it's not. Couple that with the fact that outside of scripture, the earliest Christians are on record as practicing infant baptism.

Anyone have chapter and verse they want to add in support of age of reasoning?

ROFL

The pro-infant baptism side doesn't have any scripture at all...only religious sentiment.

The early church did not practice infant baptism.

It started somewhere and that somewhere was the Catholic church selling false hope based on ignorance to mothers and fathers with babies who were dying at a high rate with disease---hope that their children would go to heaven, and they would remain faithful to their church and not fall away.

 

[A-Christian]

ROFL

The pro-infant baptism side doesn't have any scripture at all...only religious sentiment.

The early church did not practice infant baptism.

It started somewhere and that somewhere was the Catholic church selling false hope based on ignorance to mothers and fathers with babies who were dying at a high rate with disease---hope that their children would go to heaven, and they would remain faithful to their church and not fall away.

Sorry Alabaster. Avoidance and crazy stories won't cut it with the intelligent reader. I've poster chapter and verse for scriptural support that entire households were baptized. If you want to expand this topic to include sources outside of scripture, we can certainly do that. Now, once again...chapter and verse please.

 

[Alabaster]

Sorry Alabaster. Avoidance and crazy stories won't cut it with the intelligent reader. I've poster chapter and verse for scriptural support that entire households were baptized. If you want to expand this topic to include sources outside of scripture, we can certainly do that. Now, once again...chapter and verse please.

Households doesn't mean babies. It means all those who come to beleif in that household, including servants. Belief is the prerequisite.

Acts 16:31-34 NLT
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.†32 And they shared the word of the Lord with him and with all who lived in his household. 33 Even at that hour of the night, the jailer cared for them and washed their wounds. Then he and everyone in his household were immediately baptized. 34 He brought them into his house and set a meal before them, and he and his entire household rejoiced because they all believed in God.

 

[A-Christian]

Households doesn't mean babies. It means all those who come to beleif in that household, including servants. Belief is the prerequisite.

Acts 16:31-34 NLT
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.†32 And they shared the word of the Lord with him and with all who lived in his household. 33 Even at that hour of the night, the jailer cared for them and washed their wounds. Then he and everyone in his household were immediately baptized. 34 He brought them into his house and set a meal before them, and he and his entire household rejoiced because they all believed in God.

Ah, now I see what the problem is. You are using the New Living Translation bible. You do know that the NLT used translators from a variety of denominations don't you? You need to look at Acts 16:31-34 using something other than a feel-good-please-everyone translation. Let's look at the verses using a translation that was put together before 1996:

31 But they said: believe in the Lord Jesus: and you shall be saved, and your house. 32 And they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. 33 And he, taking them the same hour of the night, washed their stripes: and himself was baptized, and all his house immediately. 34 And when he had brought them into his own house, he laid the table for them: and rejoiced with all his house, believing God.

Here is the Latin and the Greek if you want to break it down:

31 At illi dixerunt : Crede in Dominum Jesum, et salvus eris tu, et domus tua. 32 Et locuti sunt ei verbum Domini cum omnibus qui erant in domo ejus. 33 Et tollens eos in illa hora noctis, lavit plagas eorum : et baptizatus est ipse, et omnis domus ejus continuo. 34 Cumque perduxisset eos in domum suam, apposuit eis mensam, et lætatus est cum omni domo sua credens Deo.

31 οἱ δὲ εἶπαν: πίστευσον ἐπὶ τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν, καὶ σωθήσῃ σὺ καὶ ὁ οἶκός σου. 32 καὶ ἐλάλησαν αὐτῷ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ σὺν πᾶσιν τοῖς ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ αὐτοῦ. 33 καὶ παραλαβὼν αὐτοὺς ἐν ἐκείνῃ τῇ ὥρᾳ τῆς νυκτὸς ἔλουσεν ἀπὸ τῶν πληγῶν, καὶ ἐβαπτίσθη αὐτὸς καὶ οἱ αὐτοῦ ἅπαντες παραχρῆμα, 34 ἀναγαγών τε αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸν οἶκον παρέθηκεν τράπεζαν, καὶ ἠγαλλιάσατο πανοικεὶ πεπιστευκὼς τῷ θεῷ.

 

[Alabaster]

It matters not what commonly accepted English translation we use. The point is, that households came to faith and then were baptized. Babies cannot come to faith.

It is a dangerous belief that infants can be saved by baptism. They grow up and walk away from their faith and think they are OK with God because they were told they were sprinkled with some water. They are deluded by their parent's religious fervor based on ignorance.

 

[Pard]

Act 16:32-34
(32) And they preached vnto him the worde of the Lord, and to all that were in the house.
(33) Afterwarde he tooke them the same houre of the night, and washed their stripes, and was baptized with all that belonged vnto him, straigthway.
(34) And when he had brought them into his house, he set meate before them, and reioyced that he with all his houshold beleeued in God.

That is the translation from the Geneva Bible, the oldest English Bible with Chapter and verses in it. The date of the Bible makes no difference. Don't get any-less "touch-feely" Christian than the good old puritan Bible...

It's interesting to note that you have to defend your position with a verse that is really never used to discuss baptism, it is used to show that God can both punish and heal you depending on your actions.

 

[Mike]

Ok, I went back and reread this thread from the beginning and it seems that the anti-infant baptism side isn't making a clear chapter-verse argument for their beliefs against infant baptism, even though a moderator ask for scriptural backing.

One thing scripture does tell us is that Peter said that everyone needed to be baptized and that entire households were baptized. If "age of reasoning" was the scriptural rule, it should be in the scripture, but yet it's not. Couple that with the fact that outside of scripture, the earliest Christians are on record as practicing infant baptism.

Anyone have chapter and verse they want to add in support of age of reasoning?

I don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation, but it is a very meaningful event in the Christian's life. To that end, I believe pro or con infant-baptism is something that we need to work out for ourselves. You said here that there has been no biblical support for not condoning infant baptism in this thread. I'm attaching a bit of a lengthy thread if you're really interested in seeing this side of the discussion. If you read it, you'll see my staunch support for infant baptism and a period that followed in which I prayerfully re-evaluated my understanding of this matter. I'm posting this because there is some strong support for not condoning infant baptism. Although this wasn't reason I had a change of heart, it did force me to confront the issue head-on for myself and truly seek the Lord on it.

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/baptism-again-31280/?highlight=baptism

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"I say no."

If it's paedobaptism you're talking about where there's a superstitious fear that the infant will be damned if they're not baptized in a suitable religious ceremony, we'd agree - NO!!!!

However there (by experience) are "Children" as young as 5 or 6 years old who GENUINELY DO put their faith in Jesus as their saviour, become Christians - and stay true over their lives. No problems baptizing a SAVED 5 or 6 year old.

"Some compare baptism to circumcision...

And there is a relationship, since BOTH speak of putting off the "old Man" - Circumcision, of course, was only a "Shadow" of what was to come, while Baptism is a TESTIMONY about what has happened.

 

[NarrowGate]

Child Baptism? NO! Baptisms plural! Yes! We have multiple baptisms. If a child is old enough to learn he should be baptized. When does this occur? If a child can talk he can be baptized. We see in the below scripture that knowledge in baptisms is one of the basic steps in Christianity. It is part of the milk of the Word.

Hbr 5:12 KJV - For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hbr 5:13 KJV - For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hbr 5:14 KJV - But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hbr 6:1 KJV - Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 KJV - Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Here Paul explains to us what the basics of Christianity are. Notice the dotrine of baptisms and it is plural. In the below scripture we see 3 baptisms.

Mat 3:11 KJV - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Here we see several things. First water baptism is an outward baptism. It is you saying, "OK God I am washing myself of sin and going to love you with all my heart soul and mind." And we know that loving God and your neighbor is a spirtual type of love also not an emotion. We see this here!

1Jo 5:2 KJV - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 KJV - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Then we see that Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Ghost and with fire. I will tell of the proper mode of baptism of the spirit and water. I do not write 20 pages so I will skip fire baptism.

What is being baptized by the Holy Ghost? First we have to know what the Holy Ghost is so we look at this scripture.

1Jo 5:6 KJV - This is he that came by water andblood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Ever notice how often in the Word that Jesus is associated with water! Here we are given the biblical definition the the Holy Ghost. The Spirit is the truth! If Jesus has baptized you in the Holy Ghost he has filled you with the truth. Where do we find this truth and receive it?

Jhn 14:26 KJV - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You will find the truth in his name! What is his name?

Jhn 1:1 KJV - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:14 KJV - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rev 19:11 KJV - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 KJV - His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 KJV - And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Jesus is the Word of God! We find the spirit or the truth in the Word of God! How do we get the truth out of the word of God?

Jhn 14:21 KJV - He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

If we are doers of the Word and not just hearers of the Word he will show himself unto you and give you the spirit of truth. For Jesus said!

Jhn 6:63 KJV - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.



So we humble ourselves as little children and become obedient to God's commands. When we do this we are given the truths out of the Word of God to feed on. We consume it and enfill ourselves with these truths or the Spirit. They will cleanse our inner man and prepare us for the bridegroom. It was the whole purpose Christ gave his life for us. This next scripture is one of my favorite reference baptisms.

Eph 5:25 KJV - Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 KJV - That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 KJV - That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

I want to look at 5:27 and notice that it is by the cleansing Word that the church is made clean. Then I want you to notice in the above Rev 19:13 scripture. The vesture dipped in blood was the saints blood he had cleansed with the washing of his word! The greek word for dipped is bapto!

So you want to be baptized in the Holy Ghost? Go obey God's commands and get the truths and live by them. Then you will be baptized with fire to see if you really have the truth! Read this scripture and see if it doesnt have a new light on it!

Act 2:38 NIV - Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Pretty well sums it up! Make that commitment! Be baptized in the name of Jesus or the Word. It will wash away your sins and give you the truths! Also tells you that if you do all things in the name of Jesus you are doing them accourding to the truths of the Word of God.


Now how about the proper mode of water baptism. How did they do it in the old days? Simple and talked about in the New and Old Testement!

Jam 4:8 KJV - Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

Oh thats to simple! Thats not how we are baptized with water! Oh yes! Wash ye hands ye sinners. Cleanse your outer man and then clean your inner man with the Word of God!

Exd 30:21 KJV - So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, [even] to him and to his seed throughout their generations.
Lev 15:11 KJV - And whomsoever he toucheth that hath the issue, and hath not rinsed his hands in water, he shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even.
Deu 21:6 KJV - And all the elders of that city, [that are] next unto the slain [man], shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:
Job 9:30 KJV - If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean;
Psa 26:6 KJV - I will wash mine hands in innocency: so will I compass thine altar, O LORD:
Mat 15:2 KJV - Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
Mar 7:3 KJV - For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash [their] hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

 

[francisdesales]

We are washed in the blood before we come to baptism. The command for baptism is only to believers.

We do not baptize unbelievers--ever.

Show us all where unbelievers are required to be baptized.

Unbelievers are not washed in the blood of Christ. Christ died for all men - true. But they do not have that Precious Blood applied to them - unless they repent and believe. That happens at Baptism.

As to "where unbelievers are required to be baptized", that is sophistry. An unbeliever will naturally refuse to submit to baptism!!!

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

ROFL

The pro-infant baptism side doesn't have any scripture at all...only religious sentiment.

The early church did not practice infant baptism.

Where is the anti-baptism side's scriptures that prove otherwise?

Do you have any Biblical or extra-Biblical proof of "the early Church did not practise infant baptism? Perhaps you should re-word that, since we do see evidence of its practice. Several sources tell us that it was practised by the Apostles. Personally, from my historical reading, I would say it was not common, but was more a local custom in some areas. It appears it was not until Augustine that the practice was more wide-spread.

Regards

 

[A-Christian]

It matters not what commonly accepted English translation we use. The point is, that households came to faith and then were baptized. Babies cannot come to faith.

It is a dangerous belief that infants can be saved by baptism. They grow up and walk away from their faith and think they are OK with God because they were told they were sprinkled with some water. They are deluded by their parent's religious fervor based on ignorance.

Looking at the verses you posted compared to the the same ones I posted, it seems clear that translations do matter.
You read something in your posted verses that does not exist. So translations do matter and you should know that.
As far as it being a dangerous belief that infants can be saved by baptism and think they are good for life, who ever said that? Who teaches that being baptized as an infant allows you to live contrary to Christian ways and still make it to heaven? Really Alabaster. Who teaches such?

 

[Alabaster]

Unbelievers are not washed in the blood of Christ. Christ died for all men - true. But they do not have that Precious Blood applied to them - unless they repent and believe. That happens at Baptism.

As to "where unbelievers are required to be baptized", that is sophistry. An unbeliever will naturally refuse to submit to baptism!!!

Regards

Really? Then why are babies baptized without consent?

If unbelievers are not washed in the blood of Jesus, then why are you baptizing them? They have to believe and repent first, and they also have to agree with the command to be baptized.

 

[Alabaster]

[/B]

Where is the anti-baptism side's scriptures that prove otherwise?

Do you have any Biblical or extra-Biblical proof of "the early Church did not practise infant baptism? Perhaps you should re-word that, since we do see evidence of its practice. Several sources tell us that it was practised by the Apostles. Personally, from my historical reading, I would say it was not common, but was more a local custom in some areas. It appears it was not until Augustine that the practice was more wide-spread.

Regards

Why would the early church practice infant baptism when it is clear that only converts are required to commit to it?

You must provide distinct scriptures that tell us that Jesus requires it.

You have no proof, and no sources that can say that the Apostles practiced such a thing!

I am going to start a new thread with the biblical argument against infant baptism.

 

[francisdesales]

Really? Then why are babies baptized without consent?

If unbelievers are not washed in the blood of Jesus, then why are you baptizing them? They have to believe and repent first, and they also have to agree with the command to be baptized.

Someone stands in proxy for them, just as someone stands in proxy for the circumcised Jew - the context of the Christian religion in 50 AD... Later, the infant confirms the parent's decision.

Try not to be so anachronistic, using today's individual views v the views held 2000 years ago regarding community. No one had a problem with circumcising a child without the child's consent, no one had a problem with baptizing a baby. Both brought the child into the community - it takes a village to raise a child. At least then. Now, people pretend they raised themselves...

Regards