Child Baptism?

[Scotth1960]

Baptism is a SACRAMENT.

God IS active in the waters of baptism.

The Church has baptized babies from it's very earliest days and there was never any negative words ever said against it. It is apparant that those who were taught by the Apostles believed in the baptism of babies, and don't forget, the Apostles were taught by Christ Himself.

Also, the Scriptures are not specific on this subject. No one has been able to come up with a definitive answer based soley on Scriptures. Therefore, we must rely on the teaching of the Church, which has had unchanging doctrine and practices since the beginning.

Dear presbuteros, That is exactly what I have been trying to say, but you said it very well in very few words. God bless you! It does matter, however, what we call "the Church". Not man made denominations like the popes of Rome, the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, the Anglicans, the Methodists; but the one holy catholic and apostolic Church, and that means the Orthodox Church.
In Erie PA Scott H.

 

[francisdesales]

Why would the early church practice infant baptism when it is clear that only converts are required to commit to it?

A convert will desire to bring his child into the faith he/she has decided to convert to. That makes sense to me. Again, little kids WERE brought up in their family's faith.

You must provide distinct scriptures that tell us that Jesus requires it.

I MUST??? :biglol

Show me where the Scriptures require that I "provide a distinct Scripture that tells us that Jesus requires it". The Bible itself states that Jesus taught a LOT of things that were not recorded in Sacred Scriptures. He left a Church to teach us ALL that He taught us, not a Bible. The Church left the Bible.

You have no proof, and no sources that can say that the Apostles practiced such a thing!

I do. Origen and Augustine both stated that these were apostolic practices. Tertullian and Irenaeus also state that children were not to be left out of these practices. It is up to YOU to prove otherwise, not me. My tradition and practices are MUCH older than yours, so it is up to the "innovators" to prove that we are wrong.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Someone stands in proxy for them, just as someone stands in proxy for the circumcised Jew - the context of the Christian religion in 50 AD... Later, the infant confirms the parent's decision.

Try not to be so anachronistic, using today's individual views v the views held 2000 years ago regarding community. No one had a problem with circumcising a child without the child's consent, no one had a problem with baptizing a baby. Both brought the child into the community - it takes a village to raise a child. At least then. Now, people pretend they raised themselves...

Regards

Where is the biblical mandate that babies---or anyone---need any proxy at all?

It is a false belief.

 

[francisdesales]

the one holy catholic and apostolic Church, and that means the Orthodox Church.
In Erie PA Scott H.

LOL!!! The Creed says what it says...

 

[Scotth1960]

LOL!!! The Creed says what it says...

Dear francisdesales, No mention of the pope of Rome in the Creed of Constantinople I in 381 AD. A pope is a member of the Catholic Church if he is Orthodox.
So are the 4 other ancient Patriarchs, together equally with the pope of Rome. Neither above or below the pope of Rome, but co-equal with Him, as in the Trinity the persons are co-equal.
Also, Filioque proves the popes of Rome are now misquoting the Creed of 381 AD.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[pjt]

And as I said earlier, ultimately infant baptism is irrelevant and accomplishes nothing ill or good other than perhaps making the parents of the infant feel good. other than that, it has no biblically spiritual significance.

I disagree b/c infant baptism can be deceiving. I`ve known ppl to say they are a Christian, going to heaven purely based on the fact they were baptized as a baby. They can`t tell you where Genesis is in the Bible, but they feel secure because when they were born they were baptized by the decision of their parents. Some ppl think that is the key to heaven. I have a friend who baptized her baby and we talked about it. She said that her church believes if the baby is baptized in her denomination, not just any baptism, it ensures the child will go to heaven but if the baby or later child/adult dies without this baptism they will not get to go to heaven. So I think it can be harmful actually.

 

[pjt]

Wow, really? That is pretty startling...

Yes, that is the honest truth. I looked and relooked. I could not believe my eyes. The interesting thing is I think it was no coincidence I found this. I generally just read the KJV so I was familiar with the scripture you quoted and there was nothing I had to dispute about your quote but for some odd reason (I think the Holy Spirit wanted to show me something) I felt compelled to check your scripture. Then instead of grabbing the KJV right in front of me that would confirm your scripture, my hand went to my bookshelf and just pulled out the Catholic Bible. I have 14 other Bibles on that shelf but my hand landed on the Catholic one. I was not thinking. It just happened. That is when I discovered they removed this scripture. To remove a scripture to prove a doctrine is a very telling and condemning point to me. I can`t respect that at all. Therefore, I can not respect their stance on baptism since they are purposely trying to hide evidence from their followers by cutting out valid scripture. That is just bad! The Bible says not to add or substract Scripture and this is a clear case of subtraction.

 

[jasoncran]

joe, if said child is baptised and then when he or she is old and lives like a child from hell.will they make it to heaven?

 

[francisdesales]

Dear francisdesales, No mention of the pope of Rome in the Creed of Constantinople I in 381 AD. A pope is a member of the Catholic Church if he is Orthodox.
So are the 4 other ancient Patriarchs, together equally with the pope of Rome. Neither above or below the pope of Rome, but co-equal with Him, as in the Trinity the persons are co-equal.
Also, Filioque proves the popes of Rome are now misquoting the Creed of 381 AD.
In Erie PA Scott Harrington

The Creed is not an all-inclusive dictation of our beliefs. Is there any mention of the Eucharist in there??? Scott, I understand you are new to Orthodox beliefs. I also realize that your history is quite limited, considering your Protestant background and Orthodox propaganda feeding. I would suggest doing some more reading on the development of doctrine in regards to Christian Tradition and Beliefs. The Church does not just begin believing in something at a Council, it is merely formulated. Nor does this Council speak the final word on a subject - for example, the Councils that built upon the subject of "who is Jesus"? Later Councils, upon examining the Tradition, found the Filioque better describes the Divine Economy. The Greek Patriarchs agreed at Florence, once they heard what we meant by "and the Son".

As to the "five equal Patriarchs", the rejection of the 28th canon of Chalcedon is proof enough of the political dealings of the emperor's men. Alexandria and Antioch were quite happy with Rome's (Leo) decision to strike this unauthorized canon out. The fact that Rome struck this out, and the striking of the robber Council is enough for any unbiased charecter to figure out that Rome was NOT equal with the other See's nor did anyone else at the time see them that way. An examination of history will bear this out, and even the Orthodox are forced to admit this. It is only stubborn apologists who refuse to hear the truth.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

joe, if said child is baptised and then when he or she is old and lives like a child from hell.will they make it to heaven?

Baptism doesn't guarantee one will reach heaven.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Where is the biblical mandate that babies---or anyone---need any proxy at all?

It is a false belief.

Tell that to the father who asked Jesus to cast out the demon from his son.
Tell that to the Centurion who asked Jesus to heal his servant.
Tell that to the paralytic brought in through the roof by his friends.
Tell that to Lazarus, who didn't ask Jesus to raise him from the dead.
Tell that to every Jew who was circumcised as an infant.

Would you like more examples? Have you READ the Gospels???

You have no clue what you are talking about. God's People have been COMMANDED to pray for the sake of others. It is only your American sensibilities of "every man for himself" that makes you say that, not the Bible.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

Baptism doesn't guarantee one will reach heaven.

Regards

ok, then the only difference between dedication and baptism in that sense is the partents openly annoucing that they will raise the child and instill christian values

the way you make that sound one must be baptised as a child in order to make it to heaven.

ok having said that. to the protestant outside of those that dont practice infant baptism.
we believe that the baptism is a ritual that reflects what has already occured at repentence thus only then shall the new christian or other christian that was never baptised be immersed in water.

as one must be born agian in order for baptism to be symbolic of the cross.

of course their are churches that disagree thus the church of christ stance.

dedication of the baby is the same thing as what you state francis.

 

[Mike]

This thread is being temporarily locked and cleaned up of posts unrelated to the topic.

 

[Mike]

Okay, posts unrelated to the topic at hand were deleted. Please stay on the topic of baptism in this discussion.

 

[Scotth1960]

This thread is being temporarily locked and cleaned up of posts unrelated to the topic.

Dear friends, The denominations which practice infant baptism are the RCC, the EOC, the Lutherans, the Old Catholics, the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Anglicans, and some other denominations. I am sorry if I strayed off topic somewhat. You can't separate a discussion of infant baptism from other doctrines which people who hold to infant baptism also preach. That is what I was trying to say. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

I say no.

Some compare baptism to circumcision...

The Jewish covenants are based on works, ex. law, circumcision.

The new covenant is based on grace, ex. confession of faith, belief.

The Jew included his son in the works of the law for the law was/is external.

Now that we are under Grace the outer workings of Baptism are a product of our belief in our Salvation and are not needed.

To get the ball rolling,
Scofield

Dear friends, To see more on infant baptism, see Acts chapter 11. See my other post in this CF on infant baptism in Acts 11. q.v. In Erie PA Scott Harrington
:nod

 

[francisdesales]

ok, then the only difference between dedication and baptism in that sense is the partents openly annoucing that they will raise the child and instill christian values

the way you make that sound one must be baptised as a child in order to make it to heaven.

ok having said that. to the protestant outside of those that dont practice infant baptism.
we believe that the baptism is a ritual that reflects what has already occured at repentence thus only then shall the new christian or other christian that was never baptised be immersed in water.

as one must be born agian in order for baptism to be symbolic of the cross.

of course their are churches that disagree thus the church of christ stance.

dedication of the baby is the same thing as what you state francis.

No, I don't see that an infant baptism is a dedication of the baby. It is truly a sacramental act of the Risen Lord. The infant is buried with Christ's death and is freed from original sin. Redemption has been given to those who would believe, and most certainly, the Scriptures have numerous examples of people standing in proxy for someone else. God is willing to heal on a faith statement made for the sake of another. Ordinarily, an adult is expected to come to Christ by his own volition. But we must remember it is God who takes the initiative, not man. An infant baptism speaks loudly to this fact.

As I said before, baptism doesn't guarantee eternal life, so it doesn't follow that baptizing an infant will secure heaven for them.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

so what's the point? i mean to be from the curse of adam. doesnt that mean that we are saved and well sinless.

i hope that you see the totaly pointless of baptising that infant , when surely you realise that your statement say that he has been made sinless(free from the curse that the cross does for all that believe).

so the cross isnt enough for salvation?if the child is positional right before god becuause of actions by you, then wouldnt that mean that if he or she dies the next day its in heaven.

and also what if the another child who lives one month dies?

are they not also in heaven?

both were to young to know what sin is. surely you agree where there is the law there is sin. if no law then no sin.

a baby doesnt know what sin is? so why would you bother trying to save a person who is innocent of sin?

 

[A-Christian]

so what's the point?

Like Francis said, it's sacremental and the apostles were told the Church was to do it.
For the Christian, the Sacrament of Baptism is the first step in a lifelong journey of commitment and discipleship. Whether we are baptized as infants or adults, Baptism is the Church's way of celebrating and enacting the embrace of God. Just because one is baptized does not mean he will remain as pure as the wind driven snow and make it to heaven.

 

[jasoncran]

Like Francis said, it's sacremental and the apostles were told the Church was to do it.
For the Christian, the Sacrament of Baptism is the first step in a lifelong journey of commitment and discipleship. Whether we are baptized as infants or adults, Baptism is the Church's way of celebrating and enacting the embrace of God. Just because one is baptized does not mean he will remain as pure as the wind driven snow and make it to heaven.

ok then that's is the same as dedicating the child to the lord. instead of baptism we pray over the child and pray for the parents to do raise the child in the lord.

water baptism to the non-infant baptising protestant is something else all together as one must know that he was a sinner and repent.

if dont want to know christ and am bapitised that doesnt do anything. just makes on wet child of hell.