Christ Mythicism: Recommended Reading

[T. E. Smith]

I see that . Since I am 100% sure Jesus existed why would I waste my time and read a book I know is a lie ? Besides I do not want to fund more of this .

Then don't read them. Lol

Come on, T.E.

"Jesus From Outer Space" makes a rather strange bed fellow with Church History AND archeology.

Poor title, good and relevant content. Carrier is a PhD ancient historian.

Here is the problem I have with this hypothesis: The apostles anticipated it, and stated quite plainly that they were NOT following myths but had been eyewitnesses to His glory.

People are free to question the veracity of that claim, but the question becomes this: If it was all just a myth and a lie, how did Christianity overcome the ancient world to become the most dominant and powerful religion on planet earth?

Carrier explains this in Not the Impossible Faith. Hint: it wasn't hard.

 

[hawkman]

Then don't read them. Lol

Hey ! You know how I think ! If I found one of these books at the thrift store I could thumb through it to see what the fuss was about .

 

[Hidden In Him]

Poor title, good and relevant content. Carrier is a PhD ancient historian.

Like yourself, however, he is apparently a commentator on religious matters from a purely philosophical perspective.

Religion is not philosophy, E.T. It is defined as a belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods. Attempts to turn religions into philosophies is a form of presumptuousness on the part of academics, who think they can explain all of life away through naturalistic and humanistic reasoning. A witchdoctor in the Congo knows more about genuine religion than all the academics on earth combined.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Like yourself, however, he is apparently a commentator on religious matters from a purely philosophical perspective.

Religion is not philosophy, E.T. It is defined as a belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods. Attempts to turn religions into philosophies is a form of presumptuousness on the part of academics, who think they can explain all of life away through naturalistic and humanistic reasoning. A witchdoctor in the Congo knows more about genuine religion than all the academics on earth combined.

He has written an extensive work on philosophy, but most of his stuff is history. Including books about science in the Roman empire. E.T.? Lol, extraterrestrial?
Carrier would describe religion as a type of philosophy. But it's really just semantics. Call it what you like.

 

[Hidden In Him]

it's really just semantics.

No, that's only what academia wants you to think. The problem is they don't have a clue.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But it's really just semantics. Call it what you like.

Btw, my apologies if I come off as condescending on this one, but after 60 years of life I've come to find the human intellect sorely over-estimated in many matters, and in particular when it comes to the subject of religion. That's a sentiment shared by the apostle Paul.

As he told the Corinthians:

18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men...
1 Brethren, when I came to you, I did not come with excellence of rhetoric or wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. 6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

[Niblo]

By your phrase, "the fat, jolly, geezer with a red suit and white beard, who lives in the North Pole," are you referring to a man? If you are referring to a man, then you're referring to a man who does not live in the North Pole, since no man lives there. You can Google the phrase, "does any man live in the north pole," and the first thing they hand you is National Geographic telling you that "No one actually lives at the North Pole." Do you disagree with this statement from National Geographic?

Why, then, would you use your phrase, "the fat, jolly, geezer with a red suit and white beard, who lives in the North Pole," to refer to someone who does not live at the North Pole?

Exactly. Father Christmas is a myth; perhaps the first- and most persuasive - lie that parents tell their kids.

 

[Edward]

Come on, T.E.

"Jesus From Outer Space" makes a rather strange bed fellow with Church History AND archeology.

Jesus isn't some Alien from a different world and is more advanced than us so came seeded our planet and set himself up as God as Ancient Aliens would have us believe...

But technically speaking, Jesus is an extraterrestrial. Extraterrestrial means, ...not earth born...
So he's not an Alien but is extraterestrial.

 

[Niblo]

Jesus isn't some Alien from a different world and is more advanced than us so came seeded our planet and set himself up as God as Ancient Aliens would have us believe...

But technically speaking, Jesus is an extraterrestrial. Extraterrestrial means, ...not earth born...
So he's not an Alien but is extraterestrial.

So he wasn't born in Bethlehem, of a human mum?

 

[Edward]

So he wasn't born in Bethlehem, of a human mum?

Not in the way you are suggesting. None of us were. We are/were preexisting spirits which came into our dwelling place of a body on earth right at birth of the body.

Go look in the mirror. That is not you that you see in the mirror. You re inside of that body. A spirit being which wears the flesh as a garment.

 

[jasonc]

Not in the way you are suggesting. None of us were. We are/were preexisting spirits which came into our dwelling place of a body on earth right at birth of the body.

Go look in the mirror. That is not you that you see in the mirror. You re inside of that body. A spirit being which wears the flesh as a garment.

Mormonism much

That's straight up Mormonism

No I didn't exist or anyone human before the earth was created as Adam would have to have been .

You can't create a doctrine based on something unknown as we don't know how God gives life to each person only that he did and nothing says we are in heaven first knowing God then sent to be tested .that's Mormonism .

 

[T. E. Smith]

Okay Edward Hidden In Him and anyone else interested, here is what is meant by "Jesus from outer space", in Richard Carrier's own words:

The title “Jesus from Outer Space” is not intended to mock or be frivolous. It is intended, rather, to pull away the veil of euphemisms and explain ancient history correctly. We cannot claim to understand the origins of Christianity if we do not admit what it was actually claiming to the people of the time. And that means admitting the earliest Christians taught that Jesus came from and continued to speak to them from outer space. Not in a fully modern sense, of course, but in every relevant sense. By the time Christianity arose, it was common to believe “the heavens” were visible realms above the Earth, held up by gaseous or ether-filled spaces, and extended all the way to the moon, the planets, and ultimately the stars—all of which encompass what we mean today by outer space. Therefore, that remains the most accurate English translation of the words that meant “the heavens” in antiquity.

That doesn’t mean they believed in an extraterrestrial vacuum (although some then did, just not Jewish theologians). But that’s not what we even mean by “outer space.” We mean everything above Earth’s atmosphere—all the space “out there.” And that’s what they believed, too. Many imagined a thinner kind of material occupied the remainder of the universe, whether some kind of invisible fire or ether, notions we didn’t even abandon until the end of the nineteenth century. In addition, they imagined creatures of various kinds inhabited every level thereof—which we would call extraterrestrials today. This only means they had different beliefs than we do about what exactly was in outer space, but they certainly had the same concept as we do of what was outer space. We ought to refer to their ideas just as they would have understood them and not obscure their beliefs behind inaccuracies. The modern idea of “heaven” is of an other-dimensional space that has no physical location inside our universe—an idea that bears no resemblance at all to what they believed in antiquity. Hence, “heaven” has become an inaccurate and misleading translation. “Outer space” is much closer in meaning to what their real beliefs were. And this is exactly the point of the title: when we translate the words of the earliest Christians to reflect better what they actually said, things look very different than one might assume. Much of modern biblical scholarship stumbles on anachronistic translations or understandings of ancient words, concepts, and phrases.

So we see that by the term, he means something quite reasonable and is not mocking anyone.

Source: https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/articles/jesus-outer-space Which contains more content relevant as well.

 

[jasonc]

Mormonism much

That's straight up Mormonism

No I didn't exist or anyone human before the earth was created as Adam would have to have been .

You can't create a doctrine based on something unknown as we don't know how God gives life to each person only that he did and nothing says we are in heaven first knowing God then sent to be tested .that's Mormonism .

Is the Mormon doctrine of preexistence true? – Mormonism Research Ministry

www.mrm.org

 

[T. E. Smith]

Is the Mormon doctrine of preexistence true? – Mormonism Research Ministry

www.mrm.org

Also held by some Catholics.

A GOP candidate recently said that life begins "before conception".

 

[T. E. Smith]

Hey ! You know how I think ! If I found one of these books at the thrift store I could thumb through it to see what the fuss was about .

I've read many books from all three positions: Christian, mainstream (there was a real Jesus, but not as in Scripture), and Christ myth. I've read N.T. Wright's massive book The Resurrection of the Son of God, which most Christians have not read.

And why did I do this? To get properly educated on the subject, to come to a conclusion based on reason and evidence and backed up by scholars and experts.

 

[jasonc]

Also held by some Catholics.

A GOP candidate recently said that life begins "before conception".

My church doesn't that and we call all forms of abortion murder,pill form kills.

Only in modern times can the blind biologist say we can identify a dog or cat or animal gender ,but not ours,yet also say man is animal.

 

[Edward]

Mormonism much

That's straight up Mormonism

No I didn't exist or anyone human before the earth was created as Adam would have to have been .

You can't create a doctrine based on something unknown as we don't know how God gives life to each person only that he did and nothing says we are in heaven first knowing God then sent to be tested .that's Mormonism .

Mormonism? I'm being accused of an Ism?! Sounds serious. I would offer you for your consideration this scripture which speaks on the subject.

Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 The Lord gave me this message:

5 “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb.
Before you were born I set you apart
and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.”.../

How could you be known before your birth on earth by the Lord if you had not even been formed or exist yet?

Answer: Simple. You were a pre-existing being then. We already existed before earth. We probably chose to be born into our specific parents or at the very least, agreed to it. The scripture does not say, the Lord had an idea about a man before he formed him...it says he knew him. He knew you before you came to earth into these dreadful flesh bodies! Lol.

Think about how our Lord is in His personality. He does not force things upon us. He always gives a choice to us! Am I right or am I right?! Adam pre-existed. Jason pre-existed. Edward pre-existed. You signed up for this class Brother!

(What brought this on?) Did...Satan and his Angels fall before earth and after they got booted out the remaining beings said, hmm I don't know what this "evil" is. What is evil? What means, death? So maybe God had the idea to ceate a class and show us death and learn why it is that we should learn to love all and want to love all and God first and most of all. (I didn't think the tuition would be this much!! Lol!!) Geez this is a hard class. I guess we were the curous ones , Jason. I might not sign up for the next class, lol. don't need to know Lord, I trust you!. So yeah, God does not change, you signed up for this class on earth like we all did. God does not force anything on anyone. You did have a choice. You do have a choice.

And you did before you born. I dummo about mormons. I doan go no mormon church. I got KJV & NKJV. But it is God's character to give choices to His Chidren. That's not mormonism, that Jesus's character.

 

[T. E. Smith]

How could you be known before your birth on earth by the Lord if you had not even been formed or exist yet?

Answer: Simple. You were a pre-existing being then. We already existed before earth.

Only talking of foreknowledge, not preexistence.

We probably chose to be born into our specific parents or at the very least, agreed to it.

That is nonsense.

 

[Edward]

And why did I do this? To get properly educated on the subject, to come to a conclusion based on reason and evidence and backed up by scholars and experts.

No wonder you don't understand any of it. What you have said here is essentially, if I can not understand it carnally then I wont believe it.

And so you will never understand it. Because it doesn't work that way. It is writen, that the carnal mind is unable to understand or receive the things of God...because God is a spirit so is spiritually discerned. So you would have had to lay down your reason to be open to spiritual discernment just to be able to receive the truth. And being unable to do that, uh, good luck with ever making any progress at all. It is written again, the things of God are foolishness to those wise men of the earth who fancy themselves intelligent! Lol! So of course you scoff at Christian doctrine and belittle the power of God. Ohh, you foolish young man, you. You will never find God by trying to approach Him with your carnal mind. You want a well rounded education do you?! Well you need to digest that Bible then and not just turn the pages 7 times while scoffing.

And don't get mad at me! This aiint my rules. God set it up to work this way. So complain to Him.
I accidently reached out to God when I thought I was about to die. He saved me! And it was obvious.
So I picked up that Bible and said, whatt does this really say? Screw what other guys say, I'll see for myself, help me Lord...
I didn't have any trouble finding the Lord. I found Him in spirit.
He didn't start talking to me, I started to be able to hear Him. He has continued to talk to me.
And I took Him at His Word, literally to prove for myself if these things be true?
That wasn't hard to do, sometimes all you have to do is step outside your front door, lol. Truth! so I started calling on Him more and more (In spirit!) for help, and He has responded to my faith and to my reaching out to Him. I have witnessed miraculous things happen. So I'm not saying I'm any Paul or Elijah or anything like that but I have seen enough with multiple experiences that...I find myself not at the mercy of ones who spouts doctrine and calls me a liar.
The man with experience is not at the mercy of one with doctrine.

And I haven't asked you for any money. So you can't call me liar. Buy me my own Jumbo Jet with a fuel allowance (!) and we;ll talk about it. Lol.

It's very weird to me that when I try to share some of my experiences, to be called a liar or wrong by both Believers and unbelievers! (Wow!) I'm not even Paul. If Paul were alive today, you guys would go picket his house, huh?

 

[jasonc]

Mormonism? I'm being accused of an Ism?! Sounds serious. I would offer you for your consideration this scripture which speaks on the subject.

Jeremiah 1:4-5
4 The Lord gave me this message:

5 “I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb.
Before you were born I set you apart
and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.”.../

How could you be known before your birth on earth by the Lord if you had not even been formed or exist yet?

Answer: Simple. You were a pre-existing being then. We already existed before earth. We probably chose to be born into our specific parents or at the very least, agreed to it. The scripture does not say, the Lord had an idea about a man before he formed him...it says he knew him. He knew you before you came to earth into these dreadful flesh bodies! Lol.

Think about how our Lord is in His personality. He does not force things upon us. He always gives a choice to us! Am I right or am I right?! Adam pre-existed. Jason pre-existed. Edward pre-existed. You signed up for this class Brother!

(What brought this on?) Did...Satan and his Angels fall before earth and after they got booted out the remaining beings said, hmm I don't know what this "evil" is. What is evil? What means, death? So maybe God had the idea to ceate a class and show us death and learn why it is that we should learn to love all and want to love all and God first and most of all. (I didn't think the tuition would be this much!! Lol!!) Geez this is a hard class. I guess we were the curous ones , Jason. I might not sign up for the next class, lol. don't need to know Lord, I trust you!. So yeah, God does not change, you signed up for this class on earth like we all did. God does not force anything on anyone. You did have a choice. You do have a choice.

And you did before you born. I dummo about mormons. I doan go no mormon church. I got KJV & NKJV. But it is God's character to give choices to His Chidren. That's not mormonism, that Jesus's character.

Try looking into old teachers ..

God doesn't need to know us ,he is omniscient .

Something prexistant would need to be made .

Why wouldn't we remember since we would be able talk to and remember.
God made us to sin?

The flesh isn't able to sin .our unseen spirit called the flesh does. That and it's not a body of flesh .my mind isn't evil .what I decide to use it for is .