Christ`s Seat of Power and Authority.

[for_his_glory]

The 24 Elders.

`Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes and they had crowns on their heads.` (Rev. 4: 4)


So who are these 24 Elders?

The new song they sing gives us their identity.

`You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and have made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign over the earth.` (Rev. 5: 9 & 10)

We note that `every tribe and tongue and people and nation` is more than 24. Thus we realise that these 24 Elders are representative of the overcomers, the Body of Christ.

Other details are important also.

Around the throne & on thrones - only for the Body of Christ. (Rev. 3: 21)

Kings and priests - only for the Body of Christ. (Rev. 1: 6)

White robes - washed in the blood of the lamb.(Rev. 5: 9)

Crowns of gold - promised (James 1: 12, 1 Thess. 2: 19, 1 Peter 5: 2 - 4, 1 Cor. 9: 24 - 27, 2 Tim. 4: 8)



Thus we see that the Lord the Royal (king) High Priest has His other royal (king) priests with Him. What a glorious celebration that will be, seeing the investiture of the Lord Jesus Christ in His glorified body, exalted visibly for angels and the overcomers.



Note all this precedes the tribulation which is when the Lord and His Body will judge the world system and fallen angels.

`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?....Do you not know that we shall judge angels?` ( 1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)



Any thoughts?

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

John, in his vision, now sees twenty-four elders seated around the throne of God. The twenty-four elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. The Elders in the Church here on earth are patterned after those in the heavenly realm, 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; 26:12-19. These elders are clothed in white raiment which represents Gods glory in them and they have gold crowns upon their heads as they are Gods royal priesthood. The elders are representative of Gods chosen generations that he has called out of darkness into his marvelous light, 2 Peter 2:9 that are asleep in the grave and those who remain alive as God’s witnesses during the seven trumpet soundings before Jesus returns.​

 

[for_his_glory]

The Bible also says that all things will eventually be subjected to God. That's in the epistles. I'm on my phone and it's midnight where I am so I'm not going to bother to look up the verse right now. What's the biblical support for your position? What do you think the rod of iron symbolizes?

The rod of iron is God's power and authority that Jesus acts on while He reigns putting all His enemies under His feet.

1Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Cor 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Marilyn C]

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

John, in his vision, now sees twenty-four elders seated around the throne of God. The twenty-four elders in the heavenly sanctuary of God are responsible for worship, for the music of worship, and as such they stand as the gatekeepers of the house of God. The Elders in the Church here on earth are patterned after those in the heavenly realm, 1 Chronicles 24:7-19; 25:6-31; 26:12-19. These elders are clothed in white raiment which represents Gods glory in them and they have gold crowns upon their heads as they are Gods royal priesthood. The elders are representative of Gods chosen generations that he has called out of darkness into his marvelous light, 2 Peter 2:9 that are asleep in the grave and those who remain alive as God’s witnesses during the seven trumpet soundings before Jesus returns.​

Hi for-his-glory,

Some very good thoughts there. May I also bring some points.

The 12 disciples/apostles of the Lamb, are on 12 thrones - kings. The 24 is also about rulership, (crowns) and you rightly call them God`s royal priesthood. Royal is Kingly and with the priest office are kingpriests. And we know that those in the Body of Christ are kingpriests. That dual office is ONLY in the highest realm.

Marilyn.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for-his-glory,

Some very good thoughts there. May I also bring some points.

The 12 disciples/apostles of the Lamb, are on 12 thrones - kings. The 24 is also about rulership, (crowns) and you rightly call them God`s royal priesthood. Royal is Kingly and with the priest office are kingpriests. And we know that those in the Body of Christ are kingpriests. That dual office is ONLY in the highest realm.

Marilyn.

We have to understand that there is a Spiritual realm in the third heaven that the earth God created is patterned after as there are many dual references in scripture.

 

[T. E. Smith]

We have to understand that there is a Spiritual realm in the third heaven that the earth God created is patterned after as there are many dual references in scripture.

There was a common ancient belief that in the spiritual realm there was an exact parallel to the physical realm, and that in fact actions done in the spiritual realm could affect the parallels in the physical realm, and perhaps vice versa. The heavenly realm was regarded as "higher" or superior. This can be found in many pagan extrabiblical sources.

It would appear that the NT authors (esp. of the book of Hebrews) copied this belief and placed a Christian spin on it. It also appears that Paul did not preach a Jesus who was physically crucified and risen but rather one who was crucified and risen in the spiritual realm only. The verses suggesting otherwise are either

• late pseudographical works, or else
• late Christian interpolations (such as "Paul's" vehement diatribe in 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16 against the Jews, which stands in sharp contrast to all his other words on the subject of his fellow Jews. "wrath has come upon them at last" also appears to reference AD 70, which was long after Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians, indicating that v. 15-16 are late additions)

 

[for_his_glory]

There was a common ancient belief that in the spiritual realm there was an exact parallel to the physical realm, and that in fact actions done in the spiritual realm could affect the parallels in the physical realm, and perhaps vice versa. The heavenly realm was regarded as "higher" or superior. This can be found in many pagan extrabiblical sources.

It would appear that the NT authors (esp. of the book of Hebrews) copied this belief and placed a Christian spin on it. It also appears that Paul did not preach a Jesus who was physically crucified and risen but rather one who was crucified and risen in the spiritual realm only. The verses suggesting otherwise are either

• late pseudographical works, or else
• late Christian interpolations (such as "Paul's" vehement diatribe in 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16 against the Jews, which stands in sharp contrast to all his other words on the subject of his fellow Jews)

Of course these are your own views since you say you do not believe in God or His Son Christ Jesus. You might have read the Bible as we see by the postings you make, but yet you have no truth found in you other than believing all those books you have read on man's theories that there is no God. Remember my friend, you are in a Christian forum where we know and have experienced God in our lives to know He is very real to us.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Of course these are your own views since you say you do not believe in God or His Son Christ Jesus. You might have read the Bible as we see by the postings you make, but yet you have no truth found in you other than believing all those books you have read on man's theories that there is no God. Remember my friend, you are in a Christian forum where we know and have experienced God in our lives to know He is very real to us.

The theories that

• There is a spiritual realm in parallel with the physical, and
• That there is no god

are not related. I am just saying that Paul's belief was that a spiritual realm was in parallel with the physical. Being a naturalist, I obviously do not believe this myself. So why would reading atheist books cause one to come to the conclusion that a spiritual realm is in parallel with the physical?

EDIT: How did I come to the conclusion that Paul believed this? By reading the Bible! With an open eye this time, and not with modern Christian biases. It was only later that I learned that this belief is also attested in extrabiblical sources, which is fascinating to me.

 

[for_his_glory]

The theories that

• There is a spiritual realm in parallel with the physical, and
• That there is no god

are not related. I am just saying that Paul's belief was that a spiritual realm was in parallel with the physical. Being a naturalist, I obviously do not believe this myself. So why would reading atheist books cause one to come to the conclusion that a spiritual realm is in parallel with the physical?

EDIT: How did I come to the conclusion that Paul believed this? By reading the Bible! With an open eye this time, and not with modern Christian biases. It was only later that I learned that this belief is also attested in extrabiblical sources, which is fascinating to me.

Let this sink in for awhile as you read all those books.

1Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cor 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[T. E. Smith]

1Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cor 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The number of times I have read this passage and heard it quoted in all number of different translations is too great to possibly account for. It's very convenient, really. Something like a catch-22. It makes it impossible to object to the gospel, because you might

• Think the gospel is wise, in which case you are affirming it as valid; or you might
• Think the gospel is foolishness, in which case you are proving Paul's point.

Let's say I wrote something similar about atheism.

The preaching of atheism is foolish to those who are religious. After all, as has been said, we destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of the world? We have made wisdom foolishness, and it pleases us to spread the foolishness of atheism.

I just made that up on the spot. Now, does this prove anything? Of course not. It's completely illegitimate to argue that because your position is foolish no objection can counter it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

As I understand this verse Jesus said that no one has ever been taken up to heaven after they died.

Good morning, FHG, and hope you are blessed today. Yes, I had read some of your posts that you subscribe to this teaching. My response is that in the passage in question, Jesus was teaching Nicodemus on the resurrection from the dead, i.e. being resurrected in glorified bodies, which no one aside from Jesus has as of yet experienced.

As Jesus taught him in the next three verses:

13 No one has ascended to Heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in Heaven. 14 And even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I may be wrong here, but I think Paul might have meant we are Spiritually seated with Christ in heavenly places like that of Colossians 3:1-4

That's correct, but it applied to those who had not yet ascended in spirit only in the spiritual sense. To those who already had ascended in spirit with Jesus after the resurrection, it applied literally, and this is why Paul used the present tense to say that we (the church) are already seated with Christ in heavenly places. He was simply expanding on his teaching earlier in the letter where he stated:

Giving thanks to the Father, the One having made us fit for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light, who delivered us from the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation. For in Him was everyone created, whether those in Heaven or those on the earth, those who are visible and those who are invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all have been created through Him and unto Him. And He is before all, and in Him all have [their] organization. And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, that He might become preeminent amongst us all, for in Him all the Fullness was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile everyone unto Himself, whether those on earth or those in Heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. (Colossians 1:12-20)

The statement that He has "delivered us from the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love" is a reference to the harrowing of Hades, and as He stated in the last verse, amongst the body of Christ there are now those who are on earth yet others are already in Heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

That's correct, but it applied to those who had not yet ascended in spirit only in the spiritual sense. To those who already had ascended in spirit with Jesus after the resurrection, it applied literally, and this is why Paul used the present tense to say that we (the church) are already seated with Christ in heavenly places. He was simply expanding on his teaching earlier in the letter where he stated:

Giving thanks to the Father, the One having made us fit for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light, who delivered us from the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation. For in Him was everyone created, whether those in Heaven or those on the earth, those who are visible and those who are invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all have been created through Him and unto Him. And He is before all, and in Him all have [their] organization. And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, that He might become preeminent amongst us all, for in Him all the Fullness was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile everyone unto Himself, whether those on earth or those in Heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. (Colossians 1:12-20)

The statement that He has "delivered us from the authority of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love" is a reference to the harrowing of Hades, and as He stated in the last verse, amongst the body of Christ there are now those who are on earth yet others are already in Heaven.

Jesus nor the angels have ever returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that made us a living soul that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body dies and returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.​

 

[for_his_glory]

• Think the gospel is wise, in which case you are affirming it as valid; or you might
• Think the gospel is foolishness, in which case you are proving Paul's point.

I am affirming the Gospel is valid as I have proven it to myself to be truth, but to those who do not believe in God it is only foolishness to them. Remember you are in a Christian forum.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus nor the angels have ever returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13.

Maybe you misunderstood. The Christian tradition is that the Old Testament saints arose with Him when He was resurrected from the dead, which is what I was speaking of.

 

[for_his_glory]

Maybe you misunderstood. The Christian tradition is that the Old Testament saints arose with Him when He was resurrected from the dead, which is what I was speaking of.

Just to be clear are you talking about Matthew 27:52 or some other scripture?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Just to be clear are you talking about Matthew 27:52 or some other scripture?

In part, but the predominant passages that teach the harrowing of Hell are elsewhere. 1 Peter 3:18-22 would be the first passage I would quote in this regard, but there are others:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

 

[Marilyn C]

Jesus nor the angels have ever returned for anyone after His ascending to sit at the right hand of the Father being our mediator before God, John 3:13. The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet as it is only our breath/spirit that made us a living soul that returns back to God who gave it when this physical body dies and returns to the dust of the ground from where it came from, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. No one is resurrected until the one and only return of Christ who calls His Bride to meet Him in the air and then forever we will be with Him in all of Gods glory, John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.​

Hi FHG,

Remember in Hebrews 12 where God tells us WHERE those who died, (in the Body of Christ and OT saints) are now.

`...you have come to Mount Zion....to the General Assembly and church of the first-born who are registered in heaven, to God the judge of all, to the SPIRITS (OT) of just men made perfect...` (Heb. 12: 22 & 23)

Marilyn.

 

[T. E. Smith]

In part, but the predominant passages that teach the harrowing of Hell are elsewhere. 1 Peter 3:18-22 would be the first passage I would quote in this regard, but there are others:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

How does this teach the harrowing of Hell? Jesus is proclaiming victory over the demons here, not rescuing the saints from Hell.

 

[Hidden In Him]

How does this teach the harrowing of Hell? Jesus is proclaiming victory over the demons here, not rescuing the saints from Hell.

This is a later interpretation that doesn't hold much water in light of the context, but I have some stuff to do atm. I'll get back to you on why a bit later on.

God bless,
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

How does this teach the harrowing of Hell? Jesus is proclaiming victory over the demons here, not rescuing the saints from Hell.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

Peter was saying here that a relative few were being saved in his time ("for narrow is the way, and few there be that find it"), just like there were only eight souls whom God saved in Noah's time, and both came through water; Noah through the great flood, and Christians through water baptism, which the flood was an anti-type of.

So salvation in Christ is what is being discussed here. Jesus somehow preaching to demons in these verses - that He had defeated them - has nothing to do with the context. Demons do not and cannot be saved, nor are they receptive to the preaching of Christ. The Old Testament saints, however, very much would have been receptive to knowing that the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world had now died for their sins and their guilt had been washed away through His blood, paving the way so that they might enter Third Heaven, the gates of Hades no longer being able to prevail against them.