Christ`s Seat of Power and Authority.

[T. E. Smith]

Peter was saying here that a relative few were being saved in his time ("for narrow is the way, and few there be that find it"), just like there were only eight souls whom God saved in Noah's time, and both came through water; Noah through the great flood, and Christians through water baptism, which the flood was an anti-type of.

So salvation in Christ is what is being discussed here. Jesus somehow preaching to demons in these verses - that He had defeated them - has nothing to do with the context. Demons do not and cannot be saved, nor are they receptive to the preaching of Christ. The Old Testament saints, however, very much would have been receptive to knowing that the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world had now died for their sins and their guilt had been washed away through His blood, paving the way so that they might enter Third Heaven, the gates of Hades no longer being able to prevail against them.

Why cannot demons be saved? What verse proves that? In fact, Peter might be actually saying they can be saved. Origen thought so. But that's not what I was saying. I think it's saying that he preached victory over them, not that he preached salvation to them. (Nevertheless, the preaching of salvation is possible as an interpretation.)

Almost always when "spirits" appears in the NT it is referring to angelic beings of some sort.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why cannot demons be saved? What verse proves that? In fact, Peter might be actually saying they can be saved. Origen thought so. But that's not what I was saying. I think it's saying that he preached victory over them, not that he preached salvation to them. (Nevertheless, the preaching of salvation is possible as an interpretation.)

Nowhere in the New Testament did anyone try to evangelize demons, and that interpretation runs contrary to the context. The ark saved humans, not demons, and water baptism likewise saves humans, not demons, unless one presumes demons can be water baptized. But there is no such instance of anyone baptizing a demon in New Testament teaching. Likewise, a few human souls were finding the narrow way in NT times, and a few human souls were saved out of the flood. Noah was a herald of righteousness to his humans offspring.

How then is Jesus suddenly preaching to demons?

 

[Marilyn C]

Why cannot demons be saved? What verse proves that? In fact, Peter might be actually saying they can be saved. Origen thought so. But that's not what I was saying. I think it's saying that he preached victory over them, not that he preached salvation to them. (Nevertheless, the preaching of salvation is possible as an interpretation.)

Almost always when "spirits" appears in the NT it is referring to angelic beings of some sort.

T.E. Smith,

it seems you are discussing another topic. So please start your own thread on that. Otherwise I will have to report this as you are taking the thread off topic.

Marilyn.

 

[Oseas]

We know from God`s word that the Godhead, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are all equal, in unity and of the same mind. However in function there is a hierarchy.

TRUE.

1 John 5:v.7 - there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word-the Word made flesh-JESUS, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are One.

In fact there is an hierarchy, and the person of the Holy Spirit is the lesser among the Three. GOD sends the person of the Holy Spirit here, but he is / will be subordinate to JESUS as JESUS revealed in John 16:v.7 to 15.

Would not be him the LAWFUL / LEGITIMATE younger brother of JESUS? On the other hand, an another question: would not he be Michael? - 2 Thessalonians 4:v.16 combined with Daniel 12:v.1-3 and REVELATION 12:v.1-2and 5?

IS NOT THE PERSON OF HOLY SPIRIT THE LAWFUL / LEGITIMATE YOUNGER BROTHER OF JESUS? LUKE 15:v.32

IS NOT THE PERSON OF HOLY SPIRIT THE LAWFUL / LEGITIMATE YOUNGER BROTHER OF JESUS? LUKE 15:v.32 1John 5:v.7 There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father-The WORD- , the Word-The Word made flesh-JESUS- , and the Holy Spirit (who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a...

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[Marilyn C]

TRUE.

1 John 5:v.7 - there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word-the Word made flesh-JESUS, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are One.

In fact there is an hierarchy, and the person of the Holy Spirit is the lesser among the Three. GOD sends the person of the Holy Spirit here, but he is / will be subordinate to JESUS as JESUS revealed in John 16:v.7 to 15.

Would not be him the LAWFUL / LEGITIMATE younger brother of JESUS? On the other hand, an another question: would not he be Michael? - 2 Thessalonians 4:v.16 combined with Daniel 12:v.1-3 and REVELATION 12:v.1-2and 5?

IS NOT THE PERSON OF HOLY SPIRIT THE LAWFUL / LEGITIMATE YOUNGER BROTHER OF JESUS? LUKE 15:v.32

IS NOT THE PERSON OF HOLY SPIRIT THE LAWFUL / LEGITIMATE YOUNGER BROTHER OF JESUS? LUKE 15:v.32 1John 5:v.7 There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father-The WORD- , the Word-The Word made flesh-JESUS- , and the Holy Spirit (who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a...

purebibleforum.com

No, that is heresy!

 

[Oseas]

No, that is heresy!

Will be? As you said, "We know from God`s Word that the Godhead, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are all equal, in unity and of the same mind. However in function there is a hierarchy".

What does the Word of GOD say? The Word is GOD. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word-the Word made flesh-JESUS , and the Holy Spirit - (who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a person): and these three -three distincts Persons - are One. Again: You said: "We know from God`s Word that the Godhead, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are all equal, in unity and of the same mind. However in function there is a hierarchy". In fact there is an hierarchy, and the person of the Holy Spirit is the lesser among the Three. JESUS is in heaven, the Holy Spirit is here, he is the GOD of the earth, as is written in Revelation 11:v.4.
GOD sent the person of the Holy Spirit here, but he is / will be subordinate to JESUS, as JESUS revealed in John 16:v.7 to 15. JESUS is the Greater Light, the Holy Spirit is the Lesser light - light that he receives from JESUS-John 16:v.7-15- , because the person of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, has no light of his own, like the moon.

 

[Oseas]

Luke 15:v.25 to 32

25 JESUS, the elder God's son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27 And he said unto him, Thy brother (the younger God's son)-is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

 

[Oseas]

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Corinthians 1:v.27-29

 

[Marilyn C]

Will be? As you said, "We know from God`s Word that the Godhead, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are all equal, in unity and of the same mind. However in function there is a hierarchy".

What does the Word of GOD say? The Word is GOD. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word-the Word made flesh-JESUS , and the Holy Spirit - (who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a person): and these three -three distincts Persons - are One. Again: You said: "We know from God`s Word that the Godhead, (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are all equal, in unity and of the same mind. However in function there is a hierarchy". In fact there is an hierarchy, and the person of the Holy Spirit is the lesser among the Three. JESUS is in heaven, the Holy Spirit is here, he is the GOD of the earth, as is written in Revelation 11:v.4.
GOD sent the person of the Holy Spirit here, but he is / will be subordinate to JESUS, as JESUS revealed in John 16:v.7 to 15. JESUS is the Greater Light, the Holy Spirit is the Lesser light - light that he receives from JESUS-John 16:v.7-15- , because the person of the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, has no light of his own, like the moon.

The Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead. He is NOT lesser as you are saying but equal, in unity and of the same mind as the Father and Son. A hierarchy on earth is lesser, as is Father, Son relationship. However those terms are not so in the Godhead. Father and Son, equal, in unity and of the same mind.

The hierarchy has to do with FUNCTION. Each part of the Godhead is involved with their activities and each do a part.

 

[T. E. Smith]

The early church consistently affirmed the compete equality of all three persons of the Trinity, including equality in authority, and they denied any hierarchy. Every early creed on the subject affirms this. (I can't argue from the Bible because the Bible is not clear on the topic.)

 

[Marilyn C]

The early church consistently affirmed the compete equality of all three persons of the Trinity, including equality in authority, and they denied any hierarchy. Every early creed on the subject affirms this. (I can't argue from the Bible because the Bible is not clear on the topic.)

`Then Jesus, when he had been baptized, came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

And suddenly a voice came from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I (Father)am well pleased." (Matt. 3: 16 & 17)

`....endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body...one Lord....
one God and Father of all, who is above all....` (Eph. 4: 3 - 6)

 

[T. E. Smith]

`Then Jesus, when he had been baptized, came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

And suddenly a voice came from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I (Father)am well pleased." (Matt. 3: 16 & 17)

`....endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body...one Lord....
one God and Father of all, who is above all....` (Eph. 4: 3 - 6)

Those do not clearly establish equality of authority.

 

[Marilyn C]

Those do not clearly establish equality of authority.

I thought you were looking at hierarchy of authority? Which or both? Or do you mean equality of authority in the hierarchy?

 

[Oseas]

The hierarchy has to do with FUNCTION. Each part of the Godhead is involved with their activities and each do a part.

1John 5:v.7 - There are three that bear record in heaven, (1) the Father- GOD the Father, the Word-the Word is GOD, (2) the Word -the Word made flesh-JESUS-the Word incarnated- , and the Holy Spirit(3) who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a person -: and these three are One.

GOD THE FATHER and JESUS - THE WORD is GOD - THE FATHER IS GREATER AMONG THE THREE
GOD, the Word, so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son -the Word-GOD-made flesh-JESUS, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

JESUS said: John 5:v.17 - My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. NOTE: It was the fourth Day of the seven Days, or around 4.000 years after Adam, and GOD was still working ;

JESUS said: John 5:v.19 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do NOTHING of himself, but what he seeth the Father-the Word- do: for what things soever He -the Word- doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

JESUS said: John 10:v.29-30 - 29- My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;... 30 I and my Father are One.

JESUS said: John 14:v.28 - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is GREATER than I. (Well, once JESUS said the Father-that is the Word - is GREATER than Him, then JESUS is LESSER than His Father. Actually, The Son can do NOTHING of himself; He said: If I bear WITNESS of myself, my WITNESS is not true);

And what to say about the person of the Holy Spirit?

THE PERSON OF THE HOLY SPIRIT - AN UNKNOWN PERSON
The person of the Holy Spirit is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a Person, and as a Person, as was JESUS in flesh and bones, he is completely unknown, mainly because he has not genealogy as JESUS has - Luke 3:v.23-38. The great mystery is that he is not a Jew. His coming is by PROPHECY, sure, likeness the prophetical coming of John the Baptist, for instance.
The person of the Holy Spirit SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; but whatsoever HE SHALL HEAR (FROM THE WORD-GOD the Father), THAT SHALL HE SPEAK: JESUS said that the person of the Holy Spirit shall take of HIM, and shall shew it unto you. He doesn't have a message of his own, he only speaks what he received from JESUS because he doesn't have a message of his own, or a message of he himself.

According JESUS, the person of holy Spirit has several missions, by the way he is also a warrior, or not? Read Isaiah 63:v.10 and Joshua 5:v.13-15, among others

JESUS said: John 16:v.12-15 and v.8-11:
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; but whatsoever HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of Judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of Judgment, because the prince of this world is Judged.

- The Person of he Holy Spirit has not genealogy as JESUS has; why? Because he is not a Jew.
- As I said above, JESUS, or the NAME of JESUS, is known of men, and is also known of the angels, and He is known of the demons too. But the person of the Holy Spirit has a NAME written (in the Holy Scriptures, course) that no MAN knows, but he himself. I repit: He has not genealogy as JESUS has, he is not a Jew.

- JESUS came from heaven (He was in the bosom of the Father) ,and He was born in Israel. John 6:v.38 - I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.

In the other hand, the prophetic birth of the person of Holy Spirit is not in Israel, but in a Gentile nation. His birth is within the body of Christ- the Church- Revelation 12:1-2&5 - , and as JESUS said, he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak, for he shall receive of mine, said JESUS, he shall take of mine. John 16:v.15

This exposed description of the person of the holy Spirit as a man, as the likeness of JESUS, or even John the Baptist, is figured like the Sun and Moon. The Moon receives light from the Sun and reflets the light over the Earth; Regardings the light of JESUS - the Greater Light - it is reflected by the Holy Spirit over the Earth, I can see by analogy in Genesis 1:v.16: - And GOD made two great LIGHTS; the Greater Light to rule the day, and the Lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Revelation 12:v.1-2and5
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman(the Church of the Lord JESUS) clothed with the Sun (closed with the Light of JESUS-the Greater Light), and the moon (the Lesser light - the person of the Holy Spirit) under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (The twelve Apostles of the Lord JESUS)
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 5-And she brought forth a MAN child - the person of the Holy Spirit- , who was to rule all nations (EXCEPT ISRAEL) with a rod of iron: and her child was CAUGHT UP unto GOD, and to His throne(in this time of Apocalypse). By the way, about GOD's Throne-Psalm 97:v.1-2CJB say: The Lord is king, let the earth rejoice, let the many coasts and islands be glad.
2 Clouds and thick darkness surround him; Righteousness and Justice are the foundation of His throne.

In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him), and LORD of lords

Amen

 

[Marilyn C]

JESUS said: John 14:v.28 - Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is GREATER than I. (Well, once JESUS said the Father-that is the Word - is GREATER than Him, then JESUS is LESSER than His Father. Actually, The Son can do NOTHING of himself; He said: If I bear WITNESS of myself, my WITNESS is not true);

Oseas,

To say Jesus is lesser than His Father, is heresy.
Jesus is part of the Godhead, He is God, as the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

In function - Divine Procession.

Godhead - At the source there is the provision by the whole Godhead,

Father - with the initial movement of the Father;

Son - the administration of the Son;

Holy Spirit - and the direct agency of the Holy Spirit.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The rod of iron is God's power and authority that Jesus acts on while He reigns putting all His enemies under His feet.

1Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Cor 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Hello for_his_glory.
Paul clearly teaches the superiority of Jesus over Adam,

when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. vs.27

It's manifest that Christ is greater than Adam, as our Lord conquered death,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. vs.28

"Subdued" by the resurrection. In other words, at that time, Jesus will be seen as God.

 

[T. E. Smith]

I thought you were looking at hierarchy of authority? Which or both? Or do you mean equality of authority in the hierarchy?

Once the doctrine of the Trinity had been fully established, the early church repudiated any hierarchy of authority in the Trinity, and they affirmed the equality of all three members.

The reason why the NT is unclear in this is because when (most?) of it was written, the Trinitarian doctrine was still in its infancy and needed further development. The developed doctrine of the Trinity simply does not explicitly exist anywhere in the NT. We can look at your verses:

`Then Jesus, when he had been baptized, came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

And suddenly a voice came from heaven saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I (Father)am well pleased." (Matt. 3: 16 & 17)

`....endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body...one Lord....
one God and Father of all, who is above all....` (Eph. 4: 3 - 6)

The Matthew passage does likely establish a proto-Trinitarian doctrine, but was written AD 80-85, and the letter to the Ephesians was likely written 10-20 years after Paul's death, maybe between AD 70 and 80. Legitimate references by Paul to the Trinity are 2 Corinthians 13:14 and 1 Corinthians 12:4–5, but those say nothing of authority.

1 John 5:7-8's reference to the Trinity cannot be found before the fourth century and is likely a quite late addition by a copyist, or else a late textual gloss.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor.15:26
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Cor.15:64

See, he's saying death is destroyed by the resurrection,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1Cor.15:28

See, he's saying "subject by the resurrection." He's saying Jesus is God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.1Cor.15:27

He's saying Jesus as Creator gave Adam dominion over the earth but,

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn.3:31

So it's manifest that Jesus, while walking about as a man, is excepted from being under Adam.

And so when the resurrection occurs, our Savior will be "subjected" to God. That is, glorified as God... so that God may will be all in all

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello for_his_glory.
Paul clearly teaches the superiority of Jesus over Adam,

when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. vs.27

It's manifest that Christ is greater than Adam, as our Lord conquered death,

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. vs.28

"Subdued" by the resurrection. In other words, at that time, Jesus will be seen as God.

I agree