Christian Calvanism

[lovely]

Curious,

I just wanted to clarify something else that Veritas and I touched on earlier. We are not to judge others about matters of doctrine that are not essential to the Gospel as defined by the Word of God.

Romans 14
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

God is the God of all, both believers and unbeliever alike, and so we do not judge fellow servants, or their motives, on matters of non-essential doctrines. We are called to receive one another in love and not impute to them evil motives.

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

I am showing you what the Word teaches, but unfortunately the body remains divided much of the time...every believer should really be making such things a matter of prayer because of our Lord and Saviour. I am not discounting church discipline for the immoral brother or sister by mentioning this, but without love to this degree to begin with it would not be approached properly among us. I just wanted to clarify the reasons why Calvinists and Armenians are believing brothers in spite of their beliefs on free will. The Lord bless you.

 

[cyberjosh]

CuriousAgnostic,

I have thus far noticed your sincerity in the inquiry of this topic. I have taken interest at that and would as a beliving Christian like to meet you in the middle with your sincerity and have some honest discussion with you.

First off you said this on the first page:

Don't you agree knowledge is power? Why is it good not to know about the beliefs of others, or the state of the world?

Yes, infact God places a high value on knowledge, but ultimately the knowledge God is concerned about us having is knowledge of the truth as regarding Himself and His purpose for us. God said in Hoshea 4:6 - "My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children."

God is quite passionate about proper relationships in the Bible. This is why love is emphasised and why the family terminology is used often throughout the Bible: Father, Brothers, Sons & Daughters. The Church is also metaphorically called the "Bride" of Christ and Jesus himself applied the term "Bridegroom" to himself. Knowledge of the person whom you are to be "married" to would be crucial to a future relationship of any magnitude in the future.

Many here on these boards may have complicated doctrines about the Word of God (the Bible), and indeed some things require more delving into as one matures in faith, however when it comes down to the basic Gospel message and purpose for live it is simple. Jesus desired to be reconcilled to us, where sin was the barrier which man had set up, so he provided atonement (a covering) for our sins by becoming a sacrifice for us (which he did out of love) so that all who renounce their sin and realize the freely offered payment for the naturally insurmountable debt of sin (spiritual death) will enter into a relationship with Him and He will bestow upon them eternal life to those who follow and belive in Him.

Jesus demonstrated this principle: "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends" (John 15:13). And the Christian relationship is to be filled with reciprocating love with Christ Jesus out of gratitude and desire to become more like Him through his freely offered grace (which helps us overcome our deficiencies). To that end the Christian life in devotion to Christ is simple, but since this world (and sometimes our own selves) loves to through complications in the way we must guard ourselves from deception of what it is really all about, thus why Paul said, "But I am afraid that, lest by any means, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:3).

And the Christian's life is not oriented towards the time we die, though we certainly live in light of eternity, but rather by God's grace we are told to love, and show hospitality, and goodness toward all people in the example of Christ in this present life to draw more people to Christ so that God may make for Himself a holy people who are pure and walking in life and love with one another and with Himself. We are supposed to live in rejoicing and in light of Jesus' charitable deed on our behalf by demonstrating his character now as we live to draw other people to salvation.

I hope this has given you a decent overview of my view of God's calling for Christians in this life.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[guibox]

Drew,

I'm not against you at all. I disagree with 'election' but I have some good 'cyber friends' who are supporters of it and we have been having a discussion on the matter.

I'm just trying to make sense of it all. I have never even given it a second thought but some arguments and scripture seem compelling.

For example, it seems awfully hard to dispute Ephesians 2 in support of election and merely saying that 'this applies to the righteous who've already chosen God' doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and I have to be honest in saying that when truly looking at the context.

Drew, I would encourage you to check out the arguments that Stan and Greg are making here on this forum. I value your opinion and appreciate the way you approach and think through things.

http://www.forthegospel.org/forum/artic ... the_gospel

 

[jgredline]

I'm just trying to make sense of it all. I have never even given it a second thought but some arguments and scripture seem compelling.

For example, it seems awfully hard to dispute Ephesians 2 in support of election and merely saying that 'this applies to the righteous who've already chosen God' doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and I have to be honest in saying that when truly looking at the context.

http://www.forthegospel.org/forum/artic ... the_gospel

Guibox

I read your post and really I have bounced this around for along time....I can play both sides of the debate till there is no end and so when these calvinism vs armeniaism discussions come up, I will state my position and move on....I would encourage you to do your own research until you have peace about it....This pretty much somes up my position on this...


The fact is that the same Bible teaches election and free salvation to all who will receive it. Both doctrines are found in a single verse: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out (John 6:37). The first half of the verse speaks of Gods sovereign choice; the last half extends the offer of mercy to all.

This poses a difficulty for the human mind. How can God choose some and yet offer salvation freely to all men? Frankly, this is a mystery. But the mystery is on our side, not on Gods. The best policy for us is to believe both doctrines because the Bible teaches both. The truth is not found somewhere between election and mans free will, but in both extremes.

Now looking at this from a Calvinistic / reformed point of view, I can find fault in this....Looking at this from an Armenianist view, I can find fault in this...But in looking for faults, we loose ''the simplicity'' of the Gospel of Jesus Christ...Which is why I am a ''Calminianist'' The truth I believe and as is taught by the bible is in the middle....

 

[Drew]

Drew,

I'm not against you at all. I disagree with 'election' but I have some good 'cyber friends' who are supporters of it and we have been having a discussion on the matter.

I have inferred from some other posts of yours long ago that you were not sympathetic to certain "Calvinist" doctrines. And even if you did disagree with me, that would, of course be ok. I suspect that the odd divergence of opinion between you and I would perhaps counter any belief that we are "each other's boy" on the "eternal torment" issue..... :D

Drew, I would encourage you to check out the arguments that Stan and Greg are making here on this forum. I value your opinion and appreciate the way you approach and think through things.

http://www.forthegospel.org/forum/artic ... the_gospel

I hope to do this, but please don't expect me to post in the next few days. Kinda busy on other things (despite the sometime irresistable lure of all these internet forums).

 

[guibox]

Frankly, this is a mystery. But the mystery is on our side, not on Gods. The best policy for us is to believe both doctrines because the Bible teaches both. The truth is not found somewhere between election and mans free will, but in both extremes..

But the fact remains that is NOT on someone else's side.

When Christ preached to the multitudes, he must have known who was His 'For my sheep hear my voice and I know my sheep'. Why did He preach to them? Why did some turn away? By election standards we must conclude that they were not 'drawn' or elected...or they had the choice to accept or reject the message. It can't be both.

So if it was the former, why did Christ bother?

The Calvinist still hasn't given a decent arguement as to where prosyletizing comes into play. They say that 'God's method of 'drawing' them is to use us'

This has a few holes.

1) if God has elected them, and God 'draws all men to me' and they 'are in no ways cast out', then if we are the agents who do this, we have a special 'works' oriented part in bringing about someone's salvation, something those that believe in election desperately downplay in the first place

2) If we don't play a part in the 'drawing', then our preaching is redundant at best. We can look in Person A's eyes and Person B's eyes and say 'Christ loves you and died for you,wanting to save you!' knowing most likely that only one of them is elect and will be drawn. It's like a crap shoot. That means that I am basically lying to one of them

3) What happens if NOBODY goes to talk to somebody. Will God not then draw His elect some other way?

 

[golfjack]

Reply

As far as I am concerned what predestination means is that the Bible teaches in Eph 1:3-6 that the Father had the plan of salvation before the foundation of the world. You see, the plan is predestined. But individually we are not predestined. Eph 2 tells us that Jesus Christ executed the Plan. And Eph. 3 tells us that the Holy Spirit reveals the Plan. It's all about the Plan.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Just a bit of a clue on free-will vs predestined.

God can be bringing things to harvest now that you planted decades ago.
He can also be answering the prayers of your Grandmother, the prayers of someone who came over on the Mayflower and prayed for this land and its people, and the prayers that some stranger offered up for you when they stood behind you in the supermarket last year.

I tend to believe that the more prayers that have been offered up on your behalf, and the more specific the prayers were, the more 'predestined' you are going to feel.

What if God could give you a glimpse of the list of prayers that others have prayed for you that He is in process of fulfilling? :o

 

[AVBunyan]

1. The Calvinist still hasn't given a decent argument as to where proselytizing comes into play.

2. if God has elected them, and God 'draws all men to me' and they 'are in no ways cast out', then if we are the agents who do this, we have a special 'works' oriented part in bringing about someone's salvation, something those that believe in election desperately downplay in the first place

3. We can look in Person A's eyes and Person B's eyes and say 'Christ loves you and died for you, wanting to save you!' knowing most likely that only one of them is elect and will be drawn. It's like a crap shoot. That means that I am basically lying to one of them

4. What happens if NOBODY goes to talk to somebody? Will God not then draw His elect some other way?

1. The old Calvinists believed the following:
a. All deserved hell – God out of mercy chose some to be saved – these are the elect.
b. God uses means to draw the elect and wake up the elect – These two means are the word of God and preaching.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
c. Calvinists believed the elect were all over the world – they just didn’t know who or where they were, so…
d. Calvinists (missionaries and evangelists) went all over the world preaching the word of God and the gospel.
e. Calvinists preached for they were commanded to by the scriptures trusting in the word of God and the Holy Spirit to save those God had chosen.

2. No – people who present the gospel of God’s grace are just instruments God uses by his grace.

3. You had better re-read John 3:16 real close – it says God so loved…past tense. God does not love the Christ-denying reprobate sinner – this is not found in scripture.

4. Faulty reasoning here – What if nobody chose Christ – did Christ the die in vain?

God bless

 

[Drew]

:
1. The Calvinist still hasn't given a decent argument as to where proselytizing comes into play.

1. The old Calvinists believed the following:
a. All deserved hell – God out of mercy chose some to be saved – these are the elect.
b. God uses means to draw the elect and wake up the elect – These two means are the word of God and preaching.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
1 Cor 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
c. Calvinists believed the elect were all over the world – they just didn’t know who or where they were, so…
d. Calvinists (missionaries and evangelists) went all over the world preaching the word of God and the gospel.
e. Calvinists preached for they were commanded to by the scriptures trusting in the word of God and the Holy Spirit to save those God had chosen.

I see nothing in AV's argument that really addresses the seeming absence of a purpose to proselytizing under a Calvinist worldview. The fact that "we don't know who the elect are" is of no relevance to the following fundamental problem: If there is an elect who will be saved no matter what, then the act of proselytizing is clearly of no consequence - the elect will be saved either way. True, we are commanded to proselytize. But under the Calvinist take on election, we do so with no sensible reason to explain that behaviour to ourselves. I take it to be self-evident that people need to understand why they are doing something in order to have any passion for it at all.

The logic seems inescapable - if the elect will be saved regardless of what we do, there is no reason that we can identify as to how proselytizing will have any determining role in respect to the end result - the salvation of the elect. If the Calvinist wants to say we do it because God orders us to, that's fine. Or, the Calvinist can argue that by proselytizing we achieve some other purpose that would not be achieved if we did not proselytize.

But the "we need to do it because we do not know who the elect are" is a faulty argument - this absence of knowledge does not change the fact that if the salvation of the elect is guaranteed, our actions are inconsequential in respect to them laying hold of that salvation.

 

[Drew]

2. if God has elected them, and God 'draws all men to me' and they 'are in no ways cast out', then if we are the agents who do this, we have a special 'works' oriented part in bringing about someone's salvation, something those that believe in election desperately downplay in the first place/

2. No – people who present the gospel of God’s grace are just instruments God uses by his grace.

I think that careful thought will reveal that the phrase "instruments of God's grace" really has to cash out to "do some work" - there is no other sensible meaning for this phrase in this context. How is it that we are instruments of God's grace in this context? By doing something - proselytizing. This is enescapably a "work" unless the Calvinist will argue that the proselytizing Christian is a "puppet" whose actions are fully and exclusively determined by God. And if one pursues that line of reasining, it seems that there is no point to instructing us in the first place - does the puppetmaster "instruct" the puppet to follow directions that he has no choice but to obey?

If we are instructed to proselytize and if we are not puppets, then proselytizing is a work. And this does create another incoherence for the Calvinist who believes that no human work has any determining role in the salvation of the elect.

 

[AVBunyan]

If we are instructed to proselytize and if we are not puppets, then proselytizing is a work.

Pick away at Calvinism all you want.

Regardless of how you look at this the fact remains - Those of yesteryear who believed in election did far more for God in the area of evangelism and missionary endeavors than the Aremianism of today or yesteryear.

These "election" believers were more faithful, obedient, more read, more holy, etc. than saints today who do not believe in election. This is a fact - just read history.

By their fruits ye shall know them...I'll take the saints of old and what they believed over today - I've seen the fruits of today and yesterday. You can have today's Armenian "christianity". :o

BTW - God called saints to good works...after they've been regenerated.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[lovely]

I just wanted to say something concerning the commission of sharing the Gospel, and how it relates to all of us...even Calvinists.

A little aside first, Mr Carey was mentioned earlier in this discussion, and he pioneered missions for protestants...while we were considering the Elvis stamp here in our nation, India was printing a six rupie stamp of Mr. Carey memorializing his good works there.

For believers sharing the joy in us is a gift, and natural to our new natures. Jesus gave this command as He also did the commands to love God, and love one another....it is ongoing, and beautiful are the feet of those who go and share the good news, and that proclaim God reigns.

Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

It is not only to share the Word with all nations, but to go and make them disciples...to teach them.

Matthew 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Even in God's sovereignty we are to obey commands, pray, and seek for conversions to the faith. Is it not the Creators plan, and right, to work through His own creation to acheive His purposes, and glorify Himself...even in our sinfulness? The need to present the good news, and pray for others, is even more urgent because of His Sovereign Grace, because we know that there are those out there who will respond at some point, and that God is literally waiting on their repsonses. Our brothers and sister are waiting to hear us share the good news! This compells us to go and tell, and not be discouraged, or worried, about the conclusion of the matter, but to be encouraged that the it is in the hands of the Holy Spirit who goes where men can not tell, but the evidence of where He has been will be clear. All is for His glory, and He has given such commands so that our joy may be full in the telling, and in the oneship with other believers, and with Him. We are literally being fruitful and multiplying.

One who believes that God reigns, and proclaims it, has a heart for evangelism, and a full understanding that this command is important, only because of God's sovereignty. It's not our persuasive arguments, or persistance, but God. This matter, of such importance, is acheived through us, not by us...not byt we who preach, or we who decide... but by the One who loved us enough to be pleased at the bruising of His own Son for our sakes. This is an uncompromising form of evangelism because one can share pure Truth, and not feel the need to water down, re-write, or add in to draw people, but knowing it is in the hands of God frees us to tell the direct Truth and take the risk of rejection and even hatred. But, the light of Truth will shine far brighter in those who keep to it. It is not a fancy seeker-friendly type telling, but a simple basic telling that is genuine and lasting to those who sincerely believe, but foolishness to those who reject.

Knowing that God is sovereign also helps us show that He will see His covenant with believers through...this blood contract that causes us to be sealed by the Holy Spirit is permanent, and God will not forsake us, and He also has the ability, and power, to keep His promises....because He knows how it all ends being outside of time Himself. He is so far above us that in His holiness, justice, and knowledge, He is able to work through all the chaos to glorify Himself completely down to the very detail exactly as He planned. God is not slack concerning His promises, and He has the Sovereign power to keep them if we believe, and He waits for all who will come to come.

I just wanted to share a few things that come to my mind when I read about the importance of evangelism, and how it relates to those who believe in God's sovereignty...to all of us really. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[Drew]

Pick away at Calvinism all you want.

Regardless of how you look at this the fact remains - Those of yesteryear who believed in election did far more for God in the area of evangelism and missionary endeavors than the Aremianism of today or yesteryear.

These "election" believers were more faithful, obedient, more read, more holy, etc. than saints today who do not believe in election. This is a fact - just read history.

By their fruits ye shall know them...I'll take the saints of old and what they believed over today - I've seen the fruits of today and yesterday. You can have today's Armenian "christianity". :o

BTW - God called saints to good works...after they've been regenerated.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Its not a matter of "picking away" - its a matter of revealing some deep conceptual problems that appear to produce a non-sensible system of belief. And a non-sensible system of belief is one that is ultimately unworkable - people need to have some understanding of why they do the things they do.

But, you may well reply (and have replied) - look at history. You claim that history shows that Calvinists have been more effective. This claim has all the earmarks of being hopelessly non-demonstrable. But let's say that one can make such a case.

Such a finding is open to the rather obvious criticism that the results achieved, while laudatory, were achieved for reasons other than a belief in the doctrine of election. Or maybe deep down they did not believe their efforts had no impact on the salvation of souls. I still think that it is hard to argue that one can be effective at something if one really believes that the results are pre-determined by forces beyond one's control.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

3. You had better re-read John 3:16 real close – it says God so loved…past tense. God does not love the Christ-denying reprobate sinner – this is not found in scripture.

You might want to read that again too AV.

Rom 5:6 ¶ For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

God did not make it easy for us to be able to tell the 'not yet saved' apart from the 'never will be saved'.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


Would to God that believers stop rejecting other believers as if they were not part of the same body. :-?

Jam 5:16..., and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[AVBunyan]

You might want to read that again too AV.

God loves his own - Christ died for the elect - those are the people God loves.

God bless

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

God loves his own - Christ died for the elect - those are the people God loves.

God bless

You quoted a verse that says 'God so loved the world'.
I responded to what I thought to be a prejudice twist, with verses that say that Christ died for the ungodly, and that God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Let me also add this one.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I am pretty sure that 'bouncer' is not one of the spiritual gifts.

 

[jgredline]

Hi Folks
This thread and some of the responses have been a little troubling to my spirit. I had told myself that I would stay out of it and it has been little bit difficult..So here we go....

Rather than turn this into a calvinism vs aremenianism debate, lets look at some scriptures and lets take a look at what they mean or what they are saying to you...Now put them in context and decide for ''yourself'' where they fall into...

Lets start with Romans 3:9-18 but lets look at verses 9-11...KJV

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Verse 9 tells us that we are ''all''under sin....
verse 10 tells us that ''There is none righteous''
verse 11 tells us ''there is none that seeketh after God''

So in looking at this section of scripture, what does it tell us? Does it tell us that there is enough good in man to want to search after God?

Are we so alienated from God, that we need the Holy Spirit to call us to him?

Where does Gods soverenty fit into all of this?

 

[guibox]

jg the verses tell me what you have put.

The difference is in interpreting what happens AFTER.

If none 'seeketh after God' then God must draw them in.

So does He draw them ALL and they choose, or does He draw some and infuse them with His grace without their choice?

John 12:32

And I , if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me

This is the same word used in John 6:44 that Calvinists like to use.

John 3:17

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that whosoever would believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life

We know that the Bible doesn't preach universalism so what can we conclude?

1) All men are spiritually dead and cannot actively seek God. God must draw and give revelation

2) Christ wishes that the whole world MIGHT be saved. Obviously there is a chance that there MIGHT NOT be those that are saved

3) Those that believeth in the Son hath life. Those that believeth not, don't have life (see also John 3:36)

I believe we underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit to soften the hardest heart and woo man to recognize his sinfulness and make a conscious choice to receive God's imputed grace that He wishes to give to the whole world.

 

[jgredline]

jg the verses tell me what you have put.

The difference is in interpreting what happens AFTER.

If none 'seeketh after God' then God must draw them in.

So does He draw them ALL and they choose, or does He draw some and infuse them with His grace without their choice?

John 12:32



We know that the Bible doesn't preach universalism so what can we conclude?

1) All men are spiritually dead and cannot actively seek God. God must draw and give revelation

2) Christ wishes that the whole world MIGHT be saved. Obviously there is a chance that there MIGHT NOT be those that are saved

3) Those that believeth in the Son hath life. Those that believeth not, don't have life (see also John 3:36)

I believe we underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit to soften the hardest heart and woo man to recognize his sinfulness and make a conscious choice to receive God's imputed grace that He wishes to give to the whole world.

Gui
I like the way you are approaching this with an open mind as you have proved my point. While we are quick to put labels on things, one example I gave was from the calvinistic side and the other was from the armenian side, yet you found both sides to agree or disagree....

I would be very intersested to hear others opinions as well, and see if we can't come to an understanding of some sort....