Christian Calvanism

[Vic C.]

This one is completely new to me. What is an Armenian ?

I just wanted to be a pain in the butt and say:

It is not Armenian or Armenianists; that would be in reference to one's possible nationality or heritage.

The proper spelling is:

Arminian and Arminianism. :-D

So CA, just Google Arminian or Arminianism and you will have a wealth of info to read.

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Oh Gulfjack, your post on page one, in referense to Romans 9 was spot on in my opinion. Nice job; good exegesis.


8-)

 

[AVBunyan]

Can the sinner choose Christ or not? What saith the scriptures?

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
If one is lost the gospel is hid – he can’t see it. They have been spiritually blinded:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Now – how is the sinner going to by his own power “unblind†himself? I’m listening (AVbunyan whistles while tapping his feet.).
God has to do the miracle.
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Paul then uses the Genesis account as an illustration…
The world was dead in Genesis 1:2…
The world could not make itself alive on its own…
God commanded the light to shine and then there was life.

Same goes for the dead sinner:
He is dead – Eph. 2:1
He is not seeking God nor has any understanding – Rom. 3 and I Cor. 2:14
The Spirit quickens the dead sinner - Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,
Then the sinner is enlightened and believes - Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,

Paul takes us back to the Genesis account to illustrate the work of salvation. Just like the world could not come alive without God’s intervention the same for the sinner – unless God opens the eyes there is no life.

BTW – Lazarus was dead – he didn’t come out until Jesus called hime out – great illustration.

Summary – the dead sinner cannot chose Christ.

God bless 8-)

 

[golfjack]

reply

AV. Your thelogy is silly to me. Who is the god of this world? Does not the message of the Gospel bring light to the whole world? Then, We can either accept the message of the Gospel or reject it. Is not the Spirit of God more powerful that the god of this world?




May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Drew]

Here are the first verses of 2 Corinthians 4 (with bolding added by me):

Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

It seems that Paul thinks that our behaviour is to have an effect on every man's conscience. Would it be sensible for Paul to do make this statement if he really beleived that all men can't at least recognize what the gospel is and what it means?

 

[jgredline]

As far as ''depravity'' is concerned, I agree with AV on the depravity of man...There is much scripture support for this....and AV, I will be using the KJV.... :wink: EDIT

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

verse 11 tells us ''there is none that seeketh after God'' so then we need to look at how it is that one becomes saved...If we are not looking for God, then God must be looking for us....Lets take a look at a couple of verses that are often overlooked...

John1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Verse 12 tells us that unbelief is ''NOT'' universal. Some folks received Jesus ''universal'' invitation. To all who accepted Jesus as the Revealer of the Father’s will and as the Sacrifice for sin, He gave the right to become children of God.... The word “right†(exousian) would be better translated ''Power'' and ''children'' (tekna) is better translated than ''sons''..... People are not naturally children of God but can become so by receiving the gift of the ''new birth''.....
Verse 13 tells us that the new birth does not come by natural means, nor is it the result of a human decision. The birth of a child of God is a supernatural work of God in regeneration. A person welcomes Jesus and responds in faith and obedience to Him, but the work of the Holy Spirit is “the cause†of regeneration....

Lets look at John 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit......

Verse 8 contains a word play and so it cannot be expressed in English correctly. The Greek word pneuma means both wind and Spirit. The work of the Spirit (pneuma) is invisible and mysterious like the blowing of the wind (pneuma)....And thus is the work of the Holy Spirit.....

OK, From here, lets move briefly into election....since it goes hand in hand with ''depravity''....Lets take a look at
Eph 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

So clearly God chose the believer before the foundation of the world....as this was based on his foreknowledge....Now I used to have trouble with this scripture, but follow along....Lets look at
Romans 10:13.. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
This verse is self explanitory...Now lets look at
1 cor 1:9.. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
Here we have a verse that tells us that God will call to himself those who will believe in his son Jesus Christ....

Now lets take a look at another verse...
Rev 22:17..17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

So here we have the Holy Spirit joined with the bride, the church, in extending an invitation to all who heed. Those who hear are encouraged to respond and also to extend the invitation to others. The wonderful promise is given that all those who are thirsty may come and will receive God’s free gift. This is the wonderful invitation extended to every generation up to the coming of Christ....So here is the thing...God does chose who the elect are, but it is based on his ''foreknowledge''...In other words, God knows from eternity past, who chose his son and who rejected his son...So it is up to ''us'' to choose or reject God'''It is up to us to decide if we want to be one of his elect....It is our choice....God is not forcing us to choose, as he did give us ''FREE WILL''

As I re-read my post I got to thinking of some of these verses and in particular John 3:8...Thinking of the ''pneuma''...We ''Gods children'' who indeed are the ''elect'' are indeed the instruments of the Holy Spirit....''IF'' God did have his elect aside, putting his ''FORKNOWLEDGE'' aside, there would be no need for Prayer, missionaries, and God could have left out

The Great Commission

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Now, are we responsible for anyones salvation? NO...Only God can save and God is going to save whom he is going to save...We are his tools...If we don't spread the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, God will use someone else and ''we'' would miss out on a blessing......from God...

 

[Veritas]

Thanks for that post jg!
It made me think of how the whole Bible is this living story of God relating with us. It's just amazing when you stop and think how the all powerful, all knowing, all present, all good God finds a way to interact with hopeless degenerate beings. It's a truth that seems to be just beyond our reasoning but simple and profoundly known in our hearts.

And Drew, I agree the truth is plainly apparent. You also said:

I still think that it is hard to argue that one can be effective at something if one really believes that the results are pre-determined by forces beyond one's control.

Who should be in the drivers seat anyways. Think of it this way: We aren't going to be effective without God.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: reply

1. Your theology is silly to me.
2. Who is the god of this world?
3. Does not the message of the Gospel bring light to the whole world?
4. Then, We can either accept the message of the Gospel or reject it.
5. Is not the Spirit of God more powerful that the god of this world?

1. Not my theology – I just quoted the verses – you either believe them or you don’t. The verses say the gospel is hid because the god of this world hath blinded those that believe not. A blind man cannot unblind himself. Why not just comment on what the verses actually say instead what you think they mean.

2. Satan

3. It brings light to whom God hath chosen, God’s elect.

4. Dead men cannot chose – Regenerated men will choose. If salvation is based upon your choice then you determine God’s will – You are saying God reacts according to your choices.

5. Yes, but it is God’s will to use Stan to do his bidding.

Folks – if you believe man has a choice then what you are saying is Paul was faulty in using the creation account to show God’s hand in the work of regeneration – Paul said…no light from God no life. Now – what are you going to do with Paul’s “Silly theologyâ€Â. Now I know you don’t really believe it is silly but I just quoted you what Paul said and you said my theology was silly – I just quoted Paul.

Also, Drew’s translation is faulty and has new age leanings. Satan is the god of this world not just this “age†– there is a difference – folks are lost – not just perishing – there is a difference – lost is more accurate and precise.

Now – the verse stands – Paul showed you the sinner is dead and blinded and man’s choice to unblind himself is nowhere to be found.

Your theology is faulty – what you are saying is the world’s sins are paid for and God is just waiting to react to your choice and when you react then God applies the blood – If this is so then the ones who did not chose go to hell with their sins paid for at Cavalry – this gang, is insane and a waste of Jesus’ precious blood.

Folks just have to have a part in their salvation don’t they? God gets all the glory – you and I get absolutely...... none…sorry.

God bless

 

[Drew]

Re: reply

Folks – if you believe man has a choice then what you are saying is Paul was faulty in using the creation account to show God’s hand in the work of regeneration – Paul said…no light from God no life. Now – what are you going to do with Paul’s “Silly theologyâ€Â. Now I know you don’t really believe it is silly but I just quoted you what Paul said and you said my theology was silly – I just quoted Paul.

Things are just not this simple - the old "I just quoted Paul argument" does not really work. Why? Because I can equally well "just quote Paul" to show that all men do indeed have the capacity to recognize and respond to the content of the gospel. And I will do it with the very same section of Paul's writing that AVBunyan has used - the first part of 2 Corinthians:

Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

It may well be that, at some point in a person's life, the god of this world blinds the lost to the gospel. But this is very different from an assertion that men are inherently incapable of recognizing and responding to the content of the gospel.

Also, Drew’s translation is faulty and has new age leanings.

The NIV is faulty? Perhaps. Let's see how other translations render 2 Corinthians 2 - the text which suggests that the gospel has the possibility of being understood by all men:

NASB
but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or (E)adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God

ASV
but we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by the manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God

Paul seems to be clearly stating that the conscience of all men can be pricked by those who live out the gospel. It hardly seems sensible that he would write these words if he believed that the consciences of some men were hopelessly blinded to the gospel through the entire duration of their lives.

The overall sense of the 2 Corinthians text seems to be that all men can indeed see and understand the gospel unless and until the god of this world blinds them to it. On both sides of this debate, we need to be wary of efforts to build a theology out of a few verses.

 

[Hugo]

Digression from OP.

 

[Free]

3. You had better re-read John 3:16 real close – it says God so loved…past tense. God does not love the Christ-denying reprobate sinner – this is not found in scripture.

I'm not sure if this was addressed but I will add my 2 cents regardless.

AV, you have just given every unbeliever a reason not to believe. This single statement completely undermines the gospel and entirety of Christ's teachings.

It also means that God does indeed change, which conflicts with Scripture.

You are completely and utterly wrong on this. I would also like to see Scriptural proof of such an erroneous statement.

 

[Free]

4. Dead men cannot chose – Regenerated men will choose. If salvation is based upon your choice then you determine God’s will – You are saying God reacts according to your choices.

A regenerated man is regenerated. That means he is already saved.

 

[guibox]

Digression from OP.

How exactly?

Here is the OP

Hello to everybody.

Does any christian here believe or hold Calvanistic views?

I have little experience with Calvanism, other than the written works are quite thick ;)

My basic understanding is that Calvanist views show that humans have no freewill, and that god has already chosen the path of each and every person regardless of their actions or love of Jesus. Is this over simplified? (I'm almost positive it is!). Can anyone give me a better understanding?

Thanks!

The question is.. 'Does any Christ here believe or hold Calvinistic views" and then wanting a better understanding of has resulted in the last 4 pages.

Sounds on topic to me...

 

[guibox]

AV, you are going to the extreme to say that man's choice means that he is playing a part in his own salvation and taking it away from Christ.

This is nonsense.

Man's choice cannot forensically save him. The saving has already been done by Christ on the cross. I cannot add to that one iota.

How does man become spiritually regenerated? By the drawing power of he Holy Spirit. Again, all Christ.

However, to say that simply because man chooses the merits of what was already accomplished (i.e, the saving work has already been done), that he is playing a part in our salvation is overdoing it.

Again, the Spirit has the power to awaken a 'dead soul' and cause them to choose and accept.

It can be both. Man can be drawn, impressed and still make a choice.

 

[Guest]

[quote="guibox]The question is.. 'Does any Christ here believe or hold Calvinistic views" and then wanting a better understanding of has resulted in the last 4 pages.

Sounds on topic to me...[/quote]

There were a few tangents caused by me perhaps on the defintions of atheism and agnostics. But as it stands, you guys have given me a LOT to chaw on, so to speak. I have no idea where to take it from here, theres a lot of information and a few differing opinions. I have nothing to add and I have some stuff to digest here.

Thanks guys!

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

... But as it stands, you guys have given me a LOT to chaw on, so to speak. I have no idea where to take it from here, theres a lot of information and a few differing opinions. I have nothing to add and I have some stuff to digest here.

Thanks guys!

bon appetite

 

[Scotth1960]

Hello to everybody.

Does any christian here believe or hold Calvanistic views?

I have little experience with Calvanism, other than the written works are quite thick ;)

My basic understanding is that Calvanist views show that humans have no freewill, and that god has already chosen the path of each and every person regardless of their actions or love of Jesus. Is this over simplified? (I'm almost positive it is!). Can anyone give me a better understanding?

Thanks!

Friend, I can't speak for whether or not Calvin denied free will. He seems to have done that. Luther did at one point, in his work "The Bondage of the Will", but I believe he may have changed his mind later in his life. The WCF (Westminster Confession of Faith) holds to a belief in the existence of human free will, and that is the most important Calvinist document. Calvin certainly did not believe in the free will of Servetus, and Calvin tried to impose his will on Servetus, that is, what Calvin believed was God's will. He seems to have believed that God wanted Servetus to die, and he made sure of this by having Servetus murdered (burnt at the stake) for his heresy. The question is, should heretics be killed? St. Peter did not kill heretics. He preached to them and loved them and told them they should repent. But he did not burn them at the stake. He died for Christ, he didn't kill for Christ. In Erie PA Scott H.
:nod

 

[Hitch]

Friend, I can't speak for whether or not Calvin denied free will. He seems to have done that. Luther did at one point, in his work "The Bondage of the Will", but I believe he may have changed his mind later in his life. The WCF (Westminster Confession of Faith) holds to a belief in the existence of human free will, and that is the most important Calvinist document. Calvin certainly did not believe in the free will of Servetus, and Calvin tried to impose his will on Servetus, that is, what Calvin believed was God's will. He seems to have believed that God wanted Servetus to die, and he made sure of this by having Servetus murdered (burnt at the stake) for his heresy. The question is, should heretics be killed? St. Peter did not kill heretics. He preached to them and loved them and told them they should repent. But he did not burn them at the stake. He died for Christ, he didn't kill for Christ. In Erie PA Scott H.
:nod

Please list Calvin's books you have personally read,in the last 10 years.

 

[Scotth1960]

Please list Calvin's books you have personally read,in the last 10 years.

Friend, I have read from the Institutes of the Christian Religion. I happen to think that Christianity is Christ, not a religion. Christ is the end of all religions. Anyway, Calvin did not convince me in that book or anything I have read of him that double predestination is taught by the OT or the NT. It is not. Everything a Christian needs to understand about soteriology begins and ends with John 3:16, which doesn't say only the elect can believe. It says "whosoever". In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington PS Yes, there are such things as people who are chosen by Christ, but no one is chosen to be damned. Christ doesn't make people sin. Calvinism says God causes everything, and by logical extension, then, God must make people sin, if He is to be the cause of absolutely everything. This Calvinism Scripture abhors. God is light and in Him there is no darkness says Scripture.

 

[Hitch]

Friend, I have read from the Institutes of the Christian Religion.

Interesting hoiw yo put that. Have you read it or not ?

I happen to think that Christianity is Christ, not a religion. Christ is the end of all religions. Anyway, Calvin did not convince me in that book or anything I have read of him that double predestination is taught by the OT or the NT. It is not. Everything a Christian needs to understand about soteriology begins and ends with John 3:16, which doesn't say only the elect can believe. It says "whosoever". In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington PS Yes, there are such things as people who are chosen by Christ, but no one is chosen to be damned. Christ doesn't make people sin. Calvinism says God causes everything, and by logical extension, then, God must make people sin, if He is to be the cause of absolutely everything. This Calvinism Scripture abhors. God is light and in Him there is no darkness says Scripture.

 

[Scotth1960]

Interesting hoiw yo put that. Have you read it or not ?

Friend, I know what Calvin teaches. I know the NT. I know these are not the same. Calvin preached 2 sacraments. That is incorrect. The Church teaches 7. That is all I need to know. In Erie PA Scott H.