Christian Pacifism, can Christians go to war?

[jasoncran]

im sorry I disagree. calling the law into to do what you wouldn't isn't my style. never ask a man to do what you are able to do or if you do at least respect them that are able to do what you cant.

"Just isn't your style?" Since when did Jesus call us to follow his commands and example, except in the cases where it "isn't your style"?

Do you have Scripture inform your world view, or do you simply follow whatever seems right to you?

remember what jesus said clearly to the roman soldiers. he said not to treat men roughly..surely that would have been the place to push that doctrine.i have assisted cops in missions. nothing big but I have. I have ensure men and women have water and food during disasters.

What does you helping give men and women food and water during disasters have to do with whether or not Christians can partake in violence?

Would you feed, clothe, give water to those who opposed you in war?

I have, its called detainee operations. we have helped our enemies in a time of war.i also carried lived ammo during those hurricanes. ah yes Americans would shoot guardsmen or attack us. nah no evidence of that or harm others.

can you show me where in romans 13 and one peter that it is said that No Christian can be a serveant of the government? can you show me where jesus said to zacheus that he had to repent for being a tax collector?

a tax collector then also could call in the law to imprison those that didn't pay up.

As he entered Caper'na-um, a centurion came forward to him, beseeching him and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, in terrible distress." And he said to him, "I will come and heal him." But the centurion answered him, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, 'Go,' and he goes, and to another, 'Come,' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this,' and he does it." When Jesus heard him, he marveled, and said to those who followed him, "Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth." And to the centurion Jesus said, "Go; be it done for you as you have believed." And the servant was healed at that very moment. ( Matthew 8:5-13)

I wish you would actually go with cops or befriend them., most cops don't want to go hands on or shoot. they prefer not to arrest. the same is with the soldier and national guard. sheesh. I was trying not to insult you and here you are assuming that I like violence. No sir I hate it.

 

[Butch5]

Introduction:

I am not 100% convinced on this topic, and indeed find it a hard issue to deal with. The topic is Christian Pacifism and the issue of just how radical is Jesus' call to peace and non-violence.

I don't expect to convince anyone, maybe myself perhaps, but rather to promote discussion so that I can come to a better understanding of the issue and perhaps glean wisdom from what others have to say.

Jesus and the Apostles:

Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? Matthew 26:52-53(ESV)

This statement is quite strong from Jesus, during his arrest Peter takes up the sword and strikes one of the soldiers so as to take off an ear. Jesus, rebukes his action and warns him that all who take the sword will perish (die) by the sword. He then appeals to the fact that Jesus could call down an Angel army to rescue him, but he is being given into the hands of their enemies so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled.

The questions then arise in my mind:

1. Does this apply to only private citizens and not the government, as the civil government does not bear the sword in vain and are God's ministers to bring about justice (Romans 13).

2. Does this apply to Christians participating in a war?

3. Does this apply to self-defense, and are there instances where violence to protect a family or loved ones is justified for the Christian?

These questions will be applicable for every passage.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you Matthew 5:43-44(ESV)

If we are to obey Jesus' commandment here, how can a Christian be involved with any kind of violence without violating this command?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38-39(ESV)

This passage seems to prohibit retaliation, even to the degree where you don't flee from violence, but offer up the cheek to patiently endure further injury. This concept is explained with the next verse I will offer.

Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.†To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.†Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:17-21

As Christians, we are commanded to repay no one evil for evil, this is again as well as in v.19 a call to not retaliate for the Christian. Paul then builds a positive case for what is to be done instead of violence.

We are to "give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all." This requires us to think this out, instead of repaying evil, we are instead to consider what would be the most honorable decision in that instance. Some examples are given later in v.20. If our enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink. While our enemies would want to destroy our bodies, we ought to be ready to care for the most basic needs of their bodies, to be compassionate and help them.

Effectively overcoming evil with good, just as our Lord did.

When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 1 Peter 2:23(ESV)

Conclusion:

There are certainly more texts to explore, but I wanted to stop here so it's not too much content to deal with.

I think from what I have read so far in these passages there are difficult questions to ask, but certainly a radical to peaceful living when following Jesus. If we are to truly follow his example, and be his followers and disciples, how can we justify acting violently in any scenario when he himself never did so?

Thoughts?

Hi Doulos,

My position is that Christians are not to use violence. This is the earliest teaching we have on the subject. I have written a paper on this subject. If you are interested it is, Should Christians Use Violence?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

can you show me where in romans 13 and one peter that it is said that No Christian can be a serveant of the government? can you show me where jesus said to zacheus that he had to repent for being a tax collector?

a tax collector then also could call in the law to imprison those that didn't pay up.

It doesn't say that, and if you read my OP I am not wholly settled on this issue, though I have not found your arguments satisfactory.

How one views the other more relevant commands of Jesus and the Apostles would then affect whether or not one could be a police officer or join the military.

Also, where did I say putting criminals in prison was wrong exactly?

I wish you would actually go with cops or befriend them., most cops don't want to go hands on or shoot.

I have an uncle who was the Police Chief of a large city and a cousin on SWAT and I myself went to college for a time and was very close to becoming a cop... I'm not ignorant of what they do..

they prefer not to arrest. the same is with the soldier and national guard. sheesh. I was trying not to insult you and here you are assuming that I like violence. No sir I hate it.

I'm just trying to get you to deal with the actual relevant texts on the subject, rather than appeal to culture, or that you don't like violence but think it's justified in some cases.

How do you reconcile your beliefs and opinions with the texts offered in the OP?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi Doulos,

My position is that Christians are not to use violence. This is the earliest teaching we have on the subject. I have written a paper on this subject. If you are interested it is, Should Christians Use Violence?

Thanks Butch5, I'll try to when I get the chance!

 

[jasoncran]

I don't find conflict,. am I not making myself clear? if im called to a dsca mission and theres a mass riot. I must use the use of force matrix. its also calle roe and in war we have them we have rules in conflicts. we cant just kill everyone on sight. they have to clearly identified as the enemy. sure the Lord prefers peace but see mark's arguments.
while I am not called at this time to be a cop. why wouldn't you want a Christian run prison or government that uses force when only needed?

the laws of war don't allow me or any soldier to deny food or water to the enemy upon capture.we cant burn crops nor damage water or electric grids. we can knock them out for tactical use only (ie a military base powered by one). nor can we hit hospitals. that law has been the case since the civil war for America.

 

[jasoncran]

ironically it was romans 13 and a chaplain teaching on that I realized that im being forced to stay in the national guard.that is my support via scripture.

 

[gr8grace]

Heb 11:32-34~~32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed [acts of] righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. (hero's of the faith)

The military image of the Lord Jesus Christ:
A. He fought for the Jews of the Exodus generation (EXODUS 14:13,14).
B. He fought for the conquest generation (JOSHUA 10:8-14).
C. He fought for Israel during the Assyrian campaign (ISAIAH 36:1-37:38).
D. He will fight for Israel at Second Advent (ZECHARIAH 14:1-3; REVELATION
19:11-21).

We have divine institutions From God, Nation, Family, wife, freedom. Christians Fight and die for these God given Institutions.

 

[Butch5]

Heb 11:32-34~~32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed [acts of] righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. (hero's of the faith)

The military image of the Lord Jesus Christ:
A. He fought for the Jews of the Exodus generation (EXODUS 14:13,14).
B. He fought for the conquest generation (JOSHUA 10:8-14).
C. He fought for Israel during the Assyrian campaign (ISAIAH 36:1-37:38).
D. He will fight for Israel at Second Advent (ZECHARIAH 14:1-3; REVELATION
19:11-21).

We have divine institutions From God, Nation, Family, wife, freedom. Christians Fight and die for these God given Institutions.

I think the question is in regard to the Christian not the Lord.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Doulos,

My position is that Christians are not to use violence. This is the earliest teaching we have on the subject. I have written a paper on this subject. If you are interested it is, Should Christians Use Violence?

Thanks Butch5, I'll try to when I get the chance!

Hi Doulos,

This was a very difficult issue for me. I was adamantly pro death penalty. I was adamant that if anyone came through my window it was over for them. I was definitely of the mindset that if war was necessary go to it. However, after a study of the early Christians and their reasoning I had to seriously rethink this issue. They were adamantly against violence of any sort. Here are a few quotes.


Aristides speaking of Christians

Aristides 125A.D.
They do not worship idols (made) in the image of man; and whatsoever theywould not that others should do unto them, they do not to others; andof the food which is consecrated to idols they do not eat, for they are pure. Andtheir oppressors they appease (lit: comfort) and make them their friends; theydo good to their enemies; and their women, O King, are pure as virgins,and their daughters are modest; and their men keep themselves from everyunlawful union and from all uncleanness, in the hope of a recompense to come inthe other world.



The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria
And an enemy must be aided, that he may not continue an enemy. For byhelp good feeling is compacted, and enmity dissolved.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria
Above all, Christians are not allowed tocorrect with violence the delinquencies of sins. For it is not those thatabstain from wickedness from compulsion, but those that abstain from choice,that God crowns.


The Early Church Fathers:Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 197 AD.
If we are enjoined, then, to love our enemies, as I have remarkedabove, whom have we to hate? If injured, we are forbidden to retaliate,lest we become as bad ourselves: who can suffer injury at our hands?

 

[Grappler]

Yes, Christians can go to war.

Sure they can..and just keep ignoring the words of Jesus as they march on.

 

[Grappler]

Yes, Christians can go to war.

Have anything more to contribute besides a naked assertion about what your opinion is? How do you reconcile that belief with what Jesus' and the Apostles call to preach on the matter?

I don't believe my assertion is in conflict with what Jesus and the apostles taught on the matter.

Ever hear of turn the other cheek? Jesus told Pilate that if his kingdom was of this world that his followers would fight. I don't judge any man that defends himself or his family but if we follow in the footsteps of Jesus whom we claim as our Lord and Saviour shouldn't we do as he would do? As far as going off to these silly wars overseas....i find it difficult for a Christian to justify killing.

 

[gr8grace]

Heb 11:32-34~~32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed [acts of] righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. (hero's of the faith)

The military image of the Lord Jesus Christ:
A. He fought for the Jews of the Exodus generation (EXODUS 14:13,14).
B. He fought for the conquest generation (JOSHUA 10:8-14).
C. He fought for Israel during the Assyrian campaign (ISAIAH 36:1-37:38).
D. He will fight for Israel at Second Advent (ZECHARIAH 14:1-3; REVELATION
19:11-21).

We have divine institutions From God, Nation, Family, wife, freedom. Christians Fight and die for these God given Institutions.

I think the question is in regard to the Christian not the Lord.

So who do you suppose the MEN(real men) were in Hebrews 11:32-34? Were they not Christians?

Luke 14:31~~ war demands planning.

National freedom comes courtesy of the military.

If it wasn't for the Client nation of God, with believers and unbelievers alike ,most of this world would be speaking German.

Christians need to be ready to defend the nation that God has given them and Gods chosen people.

1 Thessalonians 5:3~~While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

A strong defense~~ Numbers 2

He trained David for battle~~Psalm 18:34

This is just common sense boys. A person breaks into my home and threatens my wife and family, God not only gives the believer the Go ahead to killem ,He gives unbelievers that freedom also.

Men have been so feminized by this world and Christians have been so influenced by "co-exist" that we think we have to tolerate people that threaten our God given right to freedom and privacy. Not me.

If Christians did not Go to war and defend what God has Given us, we would have lost this great Nation(USA) long ago. Heck if we didn't go to war we Americans would be under a King and Queen, that would not give us the freedom to believe what we wanted. And it was Christian Ideals that founded this Nation.

 

[n2thelight]

Why did Peter have a sword in the first place?

 

[n2thelight]

If Christians did not Go to war and defend what God has Given us, we would have lost this great Nation(USA) long ago. Heck if we didn't go to war we Americans would be under a King and Queen, that would not give us the freedom to believe what we wanted. And it was Christian Ideals that founded this Nation.

:amen

 

[gr8grace]

Why did Peter have a sword in the first place?

Luke 22:36~~And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

 

[Mike]

There is also Roman 13:3-4 in which Paul inplies a legitimate role for force used by the state as an instrument of God's justice. "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority ? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same ; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid ; for it does not bear the sword for nothing ; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil."

I think this is good, and I'll add more to the point. Just prior to chapter 13, Romans 12 ends with this:

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,†says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.â€

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

But then chapter 13 picks right up on that point with this:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

We see God delegating authority throughout scripture. In John 17, Jesus prays to the Father and describes authority delegated to Him. Within the Trinity, there is a delegation.

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.

When civil servants are sworn in, they receive a badge to indicate that they are acting as a representative of the government. They are entrusted to act on behalf of the government. They don't have permission to carry their weapon until they have been sworn in and officially delegated as this representative of the government. So, this comes back to the section of Romans 13 that Mark quoted. Why is Government put in place by God as Romans 13:1 says? What is its function? This chapter says it is to condone what is good and punish what is bad.

The way I see it, soldiers of an army are delegated extensions of the government, and they have the God-Given authority to go to war.

Doulos Iesou, I understand your inner-struggle with this. I have found myself becoming more averse to violence as I continue my walk with the Lord. Except in self defense or the defense of others, I have come to stand opposed to violence, and even then I would only do what is necessary to subdue the assailant. [side note - This was a very well laid out and tempered thread that you constructed. The OP was terrific, though I disagree. I very much appreciate your work here. :yes

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

And it was Christian Ideals that founded this Nation.

Which ones were and which ones were not?

There were plenty of both.

 

[P31Woman]

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Romans 13:1-5

Draft dodgers are resisting God according to this passage.

I stand on Romans 14 in this matter. Scripture does not teach Chrisitans cannot serve in the military/war. It's not my place to judge God's servants.

And how can I balk against people whom have died so that I might have the freedoms I enjoy? I appreciate the work they have done and continue to do for my good.

 

[P31Woman]

Why did Peter have a sword in the first place?

Luke 22:36~~And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

Luke 22
38 “Look, Lord,” they replied, “we have two swords among us.”


They already had 2 with them at the last supper.

 

[P31Woman]

When civil servants are sworn in, they receive a badge to indicate that they are acting as a representative of the government. They are entrusted to act on behalf of the government. They don't have permission to carry their weapon until they have been sworn in and officially delegated as this representative of the government. So, this comes back to the section of Romans 13 that Mark quoted. Why is Government put in place by God as Romans 13:1 says? What is its function? This chapter says it is to condone what is good and punish what is bad.

The way I see it, soldiers of an army are delegated extensions of the government, and they have the God-Given authority to go to war.

I agree Mike.