Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

[George Muller]

No George, it's not. The word "places" is not in the Greek text. You can quote that passage a million times and the word "places" still will not be in the Greek text.

BGT Ephesians 2:6 καὶ συνήγειρεν καὶ συνεκάθισεν ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, (Eph 2:6 BGT)

It's heavenly, and it's plural, thus translated the "heavenlies".

Do we have to do this again? No Greek scholar in any way will accept your use of the Greek to take away the clear meaning and intention of this word. The very context of this passage makes the intention of the passage beyond any doubt.
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

George, it's not my use of the Greek. It's the Scholars you're speaking of who wrote the Greek grammars that we have. Here is what Daniel Wallace says about it in, Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. I highlighted the text in red.

294


► B. The Independent or Substantival Use of the Adjective

1. Definition

The adjective is frequently used independently of a noun. That is, it can function as a substantive (in which case it either implies a noun or takes on the lexical nuance of a noun).

2. Clarification

Usually, though not always, such a substantival adjective will have the article with it to point out that its use is indeed substantival. Some words, such as κύριος (“lordâ€),3 ἔρημος (“desertâ€), διάβολος (“slanderous,†or, as a noun, “the devilâ€), and ἅγιος (“holy,†or, as a noun, “saintâ€), often function as substantives without the arti­cle since they are either often or usually independent of nouns in the NT. Other adjectives, however, usually require the article to make clear that they are being used substantivally.

Furthermore, when the adjective is substantival, its gender is generally fixed by sense rather than by grammatical concord.4 That is to say, if it refers to a male, it will usually be masculine; if it refers to a female, it will usually be feminine; if it refers to an entity or concept, it will be neuter.

3. Illustrations

Matt 6:13
ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ

deliver us from the evil [one]

The devil is in view here, not evil in general. (However, in 5:39 just the evil man is in view.) This is one of the many passages mistranslated in the KJV: “deliver us from evil.†The prayer is not a request for deliverance from evil in general, but from the grasp of the evil one himself.

Matt 13:17
πολλοὶ προφῆται καὶ δίκαιοι

many prophets and righteous [men]

In this text there is no article, but δίκαιοι clearly should be taken substanti­vally. This is probably due to the fact that since πολλοί is a pronominal adj. the article is not required. This being the case, the
295
construction then approximates a plural Granville Sharp construction (see last chapter, Part II, for a discussion of this phenomenon).

Luke 6:45
ὁ ἀγαθὸς ἄνθρωπος ἐκ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ θησαυροῦ τῆς καρδίας προφέρει τὸ ἀγαθόν, καὶ ὁ πονηρὸς ἐκ τοῦ πονηροῦ προφέρει τὸ πονηρόν5

the good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth the good, and the evil [man] out of the evil [treasure of his heart] brings forth the evil
Acts 2:33
τῇ δεξιᾷ τοῦ θεοῦ ὑψωθείς

having been exalted at the right [hand] of God
Rom 1:17
ὁ δὲ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

but the righteous [person] shall live by faith
2 Cor 6:15
τίς μερὶς πιστῷ μετὰ ἀπίστου;

What portion does a believer have with an unbeliever?
1 Cor 13:10
ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται

whenever the perfect comes, the partial will be done away

Although there can be no objection to the τέλειον referring to the completion of the canon grammatically (for the adj. would naturally be neuter if it referred to a thing, even if the inferred noun were feminine, such as γραφή), it is diffi­cult to see such a notion in this passage, for this view presupposes that (1) both Paul and the Corinthians knew that he was writing scripture, and (2) the apostle foresaw the completion of the NT before the Lord’s return.6 A more likely view is that “the perfect†refers to the coming of Christ7 (note the terminus given in v 12 [τότε] as “face to face,†a personal reference that does not easily comport with the canon view).8

Not sure how any of that negates the clear reading and intention of the scriptures? Just because you post some stuff that relates to understanding Greek, does not change the meaning of clear words.
No biblical scholar would attempt to dismiss the clear reading of a word, they would be laughed at, and their work would be rejected.

 

[Butch5]

No George, it's not. The word "places" is not in the Greek text. You can quote that passage a million times and the word "places" still will not be in the Greek text.

BGT Ephesians 2:6 καὶ συνήγειρεν καὶ συνεκάθισεν ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, (Eph 2:6 BGT)

It's heavenly, and it's plural, thus translated the "heavenlies".

Do we have to do this again? No Greek scholar in any way will accept your use of the Greek to take away the clear meaning and intention of this word. The very context of this passage makes the intention of the passage beyond any doubt.
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,


Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,

Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

George, it's not my use of the Greek. It's the Scholars you're speaking of who wrote the Greek grammars that we have. Here is what Daniel Wallace says about it in, Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. I highlighted the text in red.

294


► B. The Independent or Substantival Use of the Adjective

1. Definition

The adjective is frequently used independently of a noun. That is, it can function as a substantive (in which case it either implies a noun or takes on the lexical nuance of a noun).

2. Clarification

Usually, though not always, such a substantival adjective will have the article with it to point out that its use is indeed substantival. Some words, such as κύριος (“lord”),3 ἔρημος (“desert”), διάβολος (“slanderous,” or, as a noun, “the devil”), and ἅγιος (“holy,” or, as a noun, “saint”), often function as substantives without the arti­cle since they are either often or usually independent of nouns in the NT. Other adjectives, however, usually require the article to make clear that they are being used substantivally.

Furthermore, when the adjective is substantival, its gender is generally fixed by sense rather than by grammatical concord.4 That is to say, if it refers to a male, it will usually be masculine; if it refers to a female, it will usually be feminine; if it refers to an entity or concept, it will be neuter.

3. Illustrations

Matt 6:13
ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ

deliver us from the evil [one]

The devil is in view here, not evil in general. (However, in 5:39 just the evil man is in view.) This is one of the many passages mistranslated in the KJV: “deliver us from evil.” The prayer is not a request for deliverance from evil in general, but from the grasp of the evil one himself.

Matt 13:17
πολλοὶ προφῆται καὶ δίκαιοι

many prophets and righteous [men]

In this text there is no article, but δίκαιοι clearly should be taken substanti­vally. This is probably due to the fact that since πολλοί is a pronominal adj. the article is not required. This being the case, the
295
construction then approximates a plural Granville Sharp construction (see last chapter, Part II, for a discussion of this phenomenon).

Luke 6:45
ὁ ἀγαθὸς ἄνθρωπος ἐκ τοῦ ἀγαθοῦ θησαυροῦ τῆς καρδίας προφέρει τὸ ἀγαθόν, καὶ ὁ πονηρὸς ἐκ τοῦ πονηροῦ προφέρει τὸ πονηρόν5

the good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth the good, and the evil [man] out of the evil [treasure of his heart] brings forth the evil
Acts 2:33
τῇ δεξιᾷ τοῦ θεοῦ ὑψωθείς

having been exalted at the right [hand] of God
Rom 1:17
ὁ δὲ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

but the righteous [person] shall live by faith
2 Cor 6:15
τίς μερὶς πιστῷ μετὰ ἀπίστου;

What portion does a believer have with an unbeliever?
1 Cor 13:10
ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ τὸ τέλειον, τὸ ἐκ μέρους καταργηθήσεται

whenever the perfect comes, the partial will be done away

Although there can be no objection to the τέλειον referring to the completion of the canon grammatically (for the adj. would naturally be neuter if it referred to a thing, even if the inferred noun were feminine, such as γραφή), it is diffi­cult to see such a notion in this passage, for this view presupposes that (1) both Paul and the Corinthians knew that he was writing scripture, and (2) the apostle foresaw the completion of the NT before the Lord’s return.6 A more likely view is that “the perfect” refers to the coming of Christ7 (note the terminus given in v 12 [τότε] as “face to face,” a personal reference that does not easily comport with the canon view).8

Not sure how any of that negates the clear reading and intention of the scriptures? Just because you post some stuff that relates to understanding Greek, does not change the meaning of clear words.
No biblical scholar would attempt to dismiss the clear reading of a word, they would be laughed at, and their work would be rejected.

What part of this is not clear, the word places is "NOT" in the Greek text? You keep saying the clear reading. The clear reading is that the word places is not there. I'm stunned that you are so insistent in your pursuit of case that is not even in the Scriptures. The word places is italicized for a reason. That reason is because it is added to the text by the translators.

I'm equally stunned that you are making an argument that you are seated in heaven when anyone can see that you are on the earth. The fact that any Christian can see that he or she is on this earth tells them that Paul did not mean they were literally in Heaven. I'm sure you can realize that you too are on the earth, therefore I can only conclude that you can't make a case and so insist on posting this passage that does nothing to make your case.

What I posted is from Daniel Wallace who is a well Respected Greek Scholar. You say no Scholar would agree with me yet here is one of the foremost of the day

 

[Butch5]

Yes, I am. That is the whole point of this thread. The Scriptures don't teach of a conscious existence outside of the body, nor do they teach that people go to heaven when they die.

he is dead until the resurrection

You appear to have a contradiction on your hands. The first quote is no longer true at the point of the second quote.

s

There's no contradiction. The resurrection is of the body. At the resurrection the body will be brought back to life. Between death and resurrection the body is dead and according to Scripture returns to the dust.

 

[George Muller]

What part of this is not clear, the word places is "NOT" in the Greek text?

So what? the word heavenly is. And the clear context of the passage leaves NO DOUBT about the clear intention of the scipture. And NO GREEK SCHOLAR AGREES WITH YOUR CONCLUSION.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Not only that but Paul teaches this same truth thoughout his epistle;

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[Butch5]

What part of this is not clear, the word places is "NOT" in the Greek text?

So what? the word heavenly is. And the clear context of the passage leaves NO DOUBT about the clear intention of the scipture. And NO GREEK SCHOLAR AGREES WITH YOUR CONCLUSION.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Not only that but Paul teaches this same truth thoughout his epistle;

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Yes, heavenly is. However, you argument isn't based on heavenly, it's based on places, a word which is not there. I've told you multiple times that a substantive in the neuter gender means things. I've giving you evidence from one of the leading Greek Scholars of the day and you still reject it. I suspect if Jesus Himself came down here and told you it was heavenly things you'd still argue that it was not.

George, it seems to me that you are not going to engage any evidence that challenges your position. This suggests to me that you are not interested in getting to the truth but would rather hold to a doctrine. All I can say is that I hope one day you will actually consider the evidence.

 

[smaller]

Yes, I am. That is the whole point of this thread. The Scriptures don't teach of a conscious existence outside of the body, nor do they teach that people go to heaven when they die.

he is dead until the resurrection

You appear to have a contradiction on your hands. The first quote is no longer true at the point of the second quote.

s

There's no contradiction. The resurrection is of the body. At the resurrection the body will be brought back to life. Between death and resurrection the body is dead and according to Scripture returns to the dust.

Oh? Life in heaven or reincarnation?

 

[George Muller]

I've giving you evidence from one of the leading Greek Scholars of the day and you still reject it.

You have not given any evidence that any Greek Scholar would remove the meaning and intention of this word. You have posted a bunch of general information about how to understand the Greek and how certain translations are made but you have not posted any Greek Scholar that would ignore the clear intention and words used in this passage. If you have accepted scholar who has written on this passage, and would post the information in a way that one could verify his creditails and study his reasons for ignoring the clear and evident intention of the scripture, I would be glad to look at that. But you can not! YOU KNOW WHY? Because no respectable Greek scholar would ever agree with what you are trying to claim.

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

 

[Butch5]

I've giving you evidence from one of the leading Greek Scholars of the day and you still reject it.

You have not given any evidence that any Greek Scholar would remove the meaning and intention of this word. You have posted a bunch of general information about how to understand the Greek and how certain translations are made but you have not posted any Greek Scholar that would ignore the clear intention and words used in this passage. If you have accepted scholar who has written on this passage, and would post the information in a way that one could verify his creditails and study his reasons for ignoring the clear and evident intention of the scripture, I would be glad to look at that. But you can not! YOU KNOW WHY? Because no respectable Greek scholar would ever agree with what you are trying to claim.

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

George, I did. If you don't accept Daniel Wallace there's not much more to say. As far as your "clear meaning" it doesn't exist. look at the brackets around the word places. You continue to argue from a word that is not in the Greek text. It doesn't matter what words the English translators "ADD". It's not in the Greek.

 

[Butch5]

You appear to have a contradiction on your hands. The first quote is no longer true at the point of the second quote.

s

There's no contradiction. The resurrection is of the body. At the resurrection the body will be brought back to life. Between death and resurrection the body is dead and according to Scripture returns to the dust.

Oh? Life in heaven or reincarnation?

There is no life in Heaven, that's why no one has posted any Scripture saying there is. The Scriptures are clear about the resurrection, the same body that goes into the ground will be raised from it.

 

[George Muller]

There is no life in Heaven, that's why no one has posted any Scripture saying there is.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Not only that but Paul teaches this same truth thoughout his epistle;

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 ¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 3:1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[George Muller]

George, I did. If you don't accept Daniel Wallace there's not much more to say.

You posted nothing that relates to how one would ignore the clear reading of this scripture, what you posted was a general coversation on translation, and had no intention or meaning toward the scripture in which we have discussed. NO GREEK SCHOLAR WOULD SUGGEST WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO AFFIRM

Eph 2:6 (KJV) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (ASV) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly [places], in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:6 (BBE) So that we came back from death with him, and are seated with him in the heavens, in Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (DBY) and has raised [us] up together, and has made [us] sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MKJV) and has raised [us] up together and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (MNT) together with him He raised us from the dead, and together with Christ Jesus seated us in the heavenly realm,
Eph 2:6 (NKJV) and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (Oracl) and has raised us up together, and has set us down together in heavenly places with Christ Jesus;
Eph 2:6 (RSV) and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (TCNT) And, through our union with Christ Jesus, God raised us with him, and caused us to sit with him on high,
Eph 2:6 (WEB) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (WNT) raised us with Him from the dead, and enthroned us with Him in the heavenly realms as being in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:6 (YLT) and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

 

[WIP]

This discussion has been teetering on the edge of acceptable for a while. I respectfully ask that we start adding a little more respect for each other lest this thread get a shiny new lock. Thank you.

 

[Larry H]

Hi Butch

Our theology in escotolagy differs in many ways. I want to understand your doctrinal beliefs.So my questions and answers will follow with that thought in mind. I don’t want our discussion to fall on presumptions.

Hi BeforeTime

I don't know that Scripture gives us all of those answers. We know from the Scriptures that those who are raised will not marry or be given in marriage. We also know from Isaiah that there will be sinners in the new heaven and new earth. ,

I’m starting to get the gist of you doctrinal beliefs. There are many here I think consider the New Heavens and Earth a future sinless paradise. The key used is the meek will inherit the earth from their stand point. Also Adam and Eve lived in a paradise before the fall; God’s purpose ,according to the majority of Christians, is to finish the job with all mankind.

Would you agree that these sinners are not the righteous who have been resurrected, that are ruling with Christ?

I don’t think Christ would want the unrighteous to rule with him if one believes a future physical kingdom on earth.

I can't argue that the Scriptures states this but here is something to consider. Ifhose who are resurrected with incorruptible bodies procreate and give birth,the offspring would also have incorruptible bodies, correct?

If one believes Butch sin is inherited and the cause of physical death you are correct.

The seoffspring would also have a free will and need to believe in Christ as any one else would. If they chose sin and rejected Christ, they would be sinners inincorruptible bodies. They would live forever in sin. This is the very reason that God expelled Adam from theGarden of Eden.

22 And the LORD God said,Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lesthe put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forthfrom the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
(Gen3:22-23 KJV)

Adam and were separated from theTree of Life so that they would not live forever in sin. It seems to me that this would be a very possible occurrence if the resurrected procreated.

If the tree of life was something like the fountain of youth it will be probable.

The nations on the other hand have not been resurrected, they will be of the same flesh that you and I are of. This flesh is corruptible and dying. Once the thousand years are over and eternity begins there will be no sin or evil and no death. Since people will no longer die there will be no need to further procreate.

I hope that answered your questions, if not please elaborate on what I missed.

Yes there is Butch; something I’m not getting. You mentioned in this post that in Isaiah;your quote “Isaiah that there will be sinners in the new heaven and new earth†Than again you said, your quote “Once the thousand years are over and eternity begins there will be no sin or evil and no death†I am assuming in the New Heaven and Earth! Please elaborate!

 

[John 8:32]

You appear to have a contradiction on your hands. The first quote is no longer true at the point of the second quote.

s

Where is there a contradiction?

You are the one that is believing satan before God!
(Gen. 3:4)

--Elijah

Is your name Butch and do you adhere to the 'soul sleep' guesswork?

And I'd thank you to refrain from the unnecessary personal comment "You are the one that is believing satan"

s

Gotta love it when people call Christ's teaching guesswork...

Hmmm, Christ calls death sleep...

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Luke does too...

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Paul also...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Perhaps you should straighten them out. Oh wait, you will have to wait until Luke, Paul and the rest wake up.

 

[smaller]

You appear to have a contradiction on your hands. The first quote is no longer true at the point of the second quote.

s

Where is there a contradiction?

You are the one that is believing satan before God!
(Gen. 3:4)

--Elijah

Is your name Butch and do you adhere to the 'soul sleep' guesswork?

And I'd thank you to refrain from the unnecessary personal comment "You are the one that is believing satan"

s

Gotta love it when people call Christ's teaching guesswork...

The observation with the 'soul sleep' observation is that people wind up in heaven anyway.

The observation I would make is that there are other ways of understanding what happens to people post death that does a better job of handling the largely O.T. texts that lean that direction.

For example was Samuel sleeping in the earth when the witch of Endor called him out? Soul sleep thinks so. I do not.

Hmmm, Christ calls death sleep...

I'm not a fan of looking past the grave to any particular person in general. We are not provided a rich depiction of those matters to obsess over for Divine Reasons as many would simply off themselves in the hopes of 'going there.'

There are a long list of reasons most believers discount soul sleep.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Luke does too...

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Paul also...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Perhaps you should straighten them out. Oh wait, you will have to wait until Luke, Paul and the rest wake up.

Isolating a few pet texts doesn't work. Most positions reside on a packaged set and ignore or discount entirely anything contrary. So what else is new?

s

 

[John 8:32]

Is your name Butch and do you adhere to the 'soul sleep' guesswork?

And I'd thank you to refrain from the unnecessary personal comment "You are the one that is believing satan"

s

Gotta love it when people call Christ's teaching guesswork...

The observation with the 'soul sleep' observation is that people wind up in heaven anyway.

The observation I would make is that there are other ways of understanding what happens to people post death that does a better job of handling the largely O.T. texts that lean that direction.

For example was Samuel sleeping in the earth when the witch of Endor called him out? Soul sleep thinks so. I do not.

Hmmm, Christ calls death sleep...

I'm not a fan of looking past the grave to any particular person in general. We are not provided a rich depiction of those matters to obsess over for Divine Reasons as many would simply off themselves in the hopes of 'going there.'

There are a long list of reasons most believers discount soul sleep.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Luke does too...

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Paul also...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Perhaps you should straighten them out. Oh wait, you will have to wait until Luke, Paul and the rest wake up.

Isolating a few pet texts doesn't work. Most positions reside on a packaged set and ignore or discount entirely anything contrary. So what else is new?

s

In other words, you do not accept the direct statements of Christ, Luke or Paul?

 

[smaller]

In other words, you do not accept the direct statements of Christ, Luke or Paul?

Yes, I accept Every Word of God as fully true and fully applicable. Every jot and tittle.

Does that lead me to conclude as you? No.

Do I condemn you as a believer for your conclusion? No.

There are many reasons soul sleep isn't true whatsoever.

Will you understand why? Maybe, maybe not.

If Jesus never leaves us or forsakes us do you believe Jesus is lying in the ground in perhaps billions of the dead bodies of believers?

I think not. There is your first mark.

s

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch

Our theology in escotolagy differs in many ways. I want to understand your doctrinal beliefs.So my questions and answers will follow with that thought in mind. I don’t want our discussion to fall on presumptions.



I’m starting to get the gist of you doctrinal beliefs. There are many here I think consider the New Heavens and Earth a future sinless paradise. The key used is the meek will inherit the earth from their stand point. Also Adam and Eve lived in a paradise before the fall; God’s purpose ,according to the majority of Christians, is to finish the job with all mankind.

I don’t think Christ would want the unrighteous to rule with him if one believes a future physical kingdom on earth.

I can't argue that the Scriptures states this but here is something to consider. Ifhose who are resurrected with incorruptible bodies procreate and give birth,the offspring would also have incorruptible bodies, correct?

If one believes Butch sin is inherited and the cause of physical death you are correct.

The seoffspring would also have a free will and need to believe in Christ as any one else would. If they chose sin and rejected Christ, they would be sinners inincorruptible bodies. They would live forever in sin. This is the very reason that God expelled Adam from theGarden of Eden.

22 And the LORD God said,Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lesthe put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forthfrom the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
(Gen3:22-23 KJV)

Adam and were separated from theTree of Life so that they would not live forever in sin. It seems to me that this would be a very possible occurrence if the resurrected procreated.

If the tree of life was something like the fountain of youth it will be probable.

The nations on the other hand have not been resurrected, they will be of the same flesh that you and I are of. This flesh is corruptible and dying. Once the thousand years are over and eternity begins there will be no sin or evil and no death. Since people will no longer die there will be no need to further procreate.

I hope that answered your questions, if not please elaborate on what I missed.

Yes there is Butch; something I’m not getting. You mentioned in this post that in Isaiah;your quote “Isaiah that there will be sinners in the new heaven and new earth” Than again you said, your quote “Once the thousand years are over and eternity begins there will be no sin or evil and no death” I am assuming in the New Heaven and Earth! Please elaborate!

Hi Before Time,

My eschatology is based in the early Christian faith. Neither the Jews nor the first Christians believed in a heavenly destiny, they were looking for a physical kingdom on this earth. The idea of going to heaven was an idea in Greek philosophy. The Gnostics who mixed Christian and Greek philosophical though claimed that they were given special knowledge that the apostles were not. It wasn't until the time of Clement of Alexandria and Origen, that the Church started to thinking about going to heaven around the 200's A.D. If read the earliest Christians they were looking for an earthly kingdom just like we see in the Scriptures. Ive pointed out several times now that there is not a single passage of Scripture that states believers go to Heaven. Yet, wee have many passages about men living on the earth forever. We have passages about God living on the earth forever. This evidence alone should convince any seeker of the truth.

Regarding your question about the new heavens and new earth. I believe the nations will exist on new earth for 1000 years under the rule of those raised in the first resurrection. At the end of the 1000 years Satan will be loosed to tempt the nations one last time. At the end of this time all who remain will be judged both the living and the dead. Those who are found in the book of life will be saved those who are not will be cast into the lake of Fire along with death and Hades. Then begins the eternity or what the early Christians called the eighth day.

The early Christians spoke of man toiling under the curse for 6000 years. They said that the days of creation were both literal and prophetic. The Scriptures say a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. The early Christians said the 6000 years under the curse are equivalent to 6 days. The 7th day is the kingdom of 1000 years, the Sabbath rest. Then comes the eighth day. This is just a quick overview I can go into more detail if you are interested.

 

[Butch5]

Is your name Butch and do you adhere to the 'soul sleep' guesswork?

And I'd thank you to refrain from the unnecessary personal comment "You are the one that is believing satan"

s

Gotta love it when people call Christ's teaching guesswork...

The observation with the 'soul sleep' observation is that people wind up in heaven anyway.

The observation I would make is that there are other ways of understanding what happens to people post death that does a better job of handling the largely O.T. texts that lean that direction.

For example was Samuel sleeping in the earth when the witch of Endor called him out? Soul sleep thinks so. I do not.

Hmmm, Christ calls death sleep...

I'm not a fan of looking past the grave to any particular person in general. We are not provided a rich depiction of those matters to obsess over for Divine Reasons as many would simply off themselves in the hopes of 'going there.'

There are a long list of reasons most believers discount soul sleep.

Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.

Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Luke does too...

Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Paul also...

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Perhaps you should straighten them out. Oh wait, you will have to wait until Luke, Paul and the rest wake up.

Isolating a few pet texts doesn't work. Most positions reside on a packaged set and ignore or discount entirely anything contrary. So what else is new?

s

Smaller, can you give me your definition of "soul" how are you using that word?

 

[smaller]

Smaller, can you give me your definition of "soul" how are you using that word?

There are, technically speaking, souls of men and also souls of devils.

To which are you referring? If armchair theologians such as ourselves don't understand that 'in man' there are technically TWO separate entities their understanding of such terms as 'sleep' will invariably land on man only when that is not the factual case.

Here for example is a picture of what goes on in the 'house' [read BODY] of A MAN according to Jesus:

Matt. 12:
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

There is an unseen 'wicked generation' on this present earth and according to Jesus these abide IN MAN. IN the instance above for example we could see A MAN'S SOUL and SEVEN (corrected-8) WICKED SPIRITS, also with SINNING SOULS.

Any who don't have an account of 'these members' and 'that wicked generation' are, technically speaking, BLIND to scriptural realities.

So, do you have an account for 'those souls' that sin, they being the captors of mankinds MINDS?

Most don't, so you are more than likely in common company.

s