Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

[Butch5]

George,

Where are you right now, In Heaven or on earth?

Well it is clear what Gods word says, that a believer is seated in Christ in heaven. Now I know these things are hard to understand "for great is the mystery of godliness" but the bible is true, whether some understand it or can believe it.

Col 1:12 ¶ Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Its called the "mystery" Spend your time trying to believe the bible, not trying to disprove the bible and you might be allowed to understand the deeper things of God?

Greorge,

Where are you right now?

The mystery is that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs. We're not talking about that. Regarding proving the Bible, I am. What I am not doing is proving what translators say. You've posted translators who added the word "places". I'm giving you the Greek text which does not say places. You continue to quote a passage that you believe indicates that you are seated in Heaven yet I asked you where you are currently located. I'll rephrase it, as you read are you currently on earth?

What does that have to do with the truth of scripture? Did you "die with Christ" when you where baptised? Have you seen your sins forgiven? Or do you understnad these things to be true by faith in Gods word?

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:1 ¶ For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

1Co 2:6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
MYSTERY, something hidden. That cannot be known by the natural senses.

Do you only believe the parts of the scriptures that you can see or touch with your natural senses? Did you see your sins forgiven? did you see Christ die for your sins? No, you accept the clear and evident testimony of Gods written word.

I believe all of Scripture. I'm not sure why you keep posting your interpretation of the Scriptures. We've already seen that there is no passage of Scripture that states a person goes to Heaven. Therefore any case you attempt to make, is at best by way of inference, not fact. You're refusal answer my simple question suggests to me that you realize this. It's a simple question, when you post are you on earth, yes or no?

 

[Grappler]

Actually you began this discussion with me. So now what?

I remarked to your comment that parables were, in effect, stories. And I pointed out that Biblical parables contain 'real' entities.

There is a marked difference between Biblical parables and parables of the world.

One of the two is a reality. Biblical parables concern real matters.

And that is the essence of what I was pointing to.

IN the 'story' of little red riding hood there is a talking big bad wolf. That's a fantasy story.

IN every Biblical parable there is a hidden character(s) revealed called Satan and devils who are in fact real entities, yet they are unseen. That is why the information about them is conveyed by parable.

And the more interesting part is that these entities are overlayed upon mankind, making the fact of these parables even more interesting.

and to ratchet up the conversation to even more interesting levels, scriptures IN PARABLE present that those entities IN MAN resist exposure when PARABLES are applied to reveal them.

How far ya wanna take the conversation?

You believe that Lazarus was sitting on Abraham's lap chit-chatting away with a dead man burning in torment and I do not.

We both agreed that it is a parable and that it does not entail hell in the Lake of Fire sense.

I proposed Jesus' method given for parable analysis in Mark 4. I understand that you won't like it.

So I guess we agree to disagree and go on our way don't we? What else would you like to discuss?

Have we really discussed anything yet? I think we did discover that you don't believe there is an eternal Lake of Fire and I consider that a fairly recent apostasy of some good intentioned believers who don't see the benefit of Satan and devils heading there and somehow prefer to either make fun of people like me who believe there are real evil spirits who will factually be put away forever in the Lake of Fire, or they want to 'save' evil spirits via Satanic salvation.

s

You are correct. I do not believe the unrighteous dead are given eternal life in the Lake of Fire but they are instead burnt up and destroyed just as scripture teaches.

 

[Grappler]

Greorge,

Where are you right now?

The mystery is that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs. We're not talking about that. Regarding proving the Bible, I am. What I am not doing is proving what translators say. You've posted translators who added the word "places". I'm giving you the Greek text which does not say places. You continue to quote a passage that you believe indicates that you are seated in Heaven yet I asked you where you are currently located. I'll rephrase it, as you read are you currently on earth?

What does that have to do with the truth of scripture? Did you "die with Christ" when you where baptised? Have you seen your sins forgiven? Or do you understnad these things to be true by faith in Gods word?

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:1 ¶ For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

1Co 2:6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
MYSTERY, something hidden. That cannot be known by the natural senses.

Do you only believe the parts of the scriptures that you can see or touch with your natural senses? Did you see your sins forgiven? did you see Christ die for your sins? No, you accept the clear and evident testimony of Gods written word.

I believe all of Scripture. I'm not sure why you keep posting your interpretation of the Scriptures. We've already seen that there is no passage of Scripture that states a person goes to Heaven. Therefore any case you attempt to make, is at best by way of inference, not fact. You're refusal answer my simple question suggests to me that you realize this. It's a simple question, when you post are you on earth, yes or no?

Butch, I had the same trouble with the gentleman as well....he would not answer simple questions...so therefore we got absolutely no where in our discussion.

 

[George Muller]

I believe all of Scripture.

Good, this should be easy for you?

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[George Muller]

....he would not answer simple questions...

I dont remember a question? So ask away, I will be glad to answer any question you have.

 

[Butch5]

Greorge,

Where are you right now?

The mystery is that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs. We're not talking about that. Regarding proving the Bible, I am. What I am not doing is proving what translators say. You've posted translators who added the word "places". I'm giving you the Greek text which does not say places. You continue to quote a passage that you believe indicates that you are seated in Heaven yet I asked you where you are currently located. I'll rephrase it, as you read are you currently on earth?

What does that have to do with the truth of scripture? Did you "die with Christ" when you where baptised? Have you seen your sins forgiven? Or do you understnad these things to be true by faith in Gods word?

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2Co 5:1 ¶ For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

1Co 2:6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
MYSTERY, something hidden. That cannot be known by the natural senses.

Do you only believe the parts of the scriptures that you can see or touch with your natural senses? Did you see your sins forgiven? did you see Christ die for your sins? No, you accept the clear and evident testimony of Gods written word.

I believe all of Scripture. I'm not sure why you keep posting your interpretation of the Scriptures. We've already seen that there is no passage of Scripture that states a person goes to Heaven. Therefore any case you attempt to make, is at best by way of inference, not fact. You're refusal answer my simple question suggests to me that you realize this. It's a simple question, when you post are you on earth, yes or no?

Butch, I had the same trouble with the gentleman as well....he would not answer simple questions...so therefore we got absolutely no where in our discussion.

I saw that. I've found that many will not address evidence that is contradictory to their positions. Many pit Scripture against Scripture as if one passage nullifies what another says.

 

[Butch5]

I believe all of Scripture.

Good, this should be easy for you?

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It is easy for me, I believe what the Scriptures say, not the translators opinons. I've explained it to you already. George, let me ask you a question, since you believe the passage is saying that Christians are seated with Christ in Heaven and you are on earth, does that mean you are not a Christian? You've still not answered my question

 

[Grappler]

....he would not answer simple questions...

I dont remember a question? So ask away, I will be glad to answer any question you have.

Oh...so now you are ready to answer questions? Ok, please go back and look at my posts to YOU and answer my questions. Thank you.

 

[Larry H]

Hi Butch

Resurrection anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις,εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a RISING AGAIN, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.

Try to follow me here Butch, and your conclusion on the matter.

I am going to assume you believe Isaiah is speaking about the paradise earth, as does Revelation 21: 1-4 in the afterlife. “Resurrectionâ€

Isaiah 65:17 For, lo, I am creating NEW HEAVENS, AND A NEW EARTH, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.

And again I presume you consider Matthew is referring to No marriage in the New Earth

Matthew 22:30 At the RESURRECTION people will NEITHER MARRY NOR BE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE; they will be like the angels in heaven.

If you do believe the above than there will be ILLEGITIMATE CHILDREN born in the New Earth, paradise, is that correct?

Isaiah 65:20 "NEVER AGAIN WILL THERE BE IN IT AN INFANT WHO LIVES BUT A FEW DAYS, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

Does this create a dilemma? What’s your take!

No, this doesn't create any dilemmas for me. Those who are raised at the resurrection will not marry, however, I don't see anything that is speaking of the nations not marrying.

No, this doesn't create any dilemmas for me. Those who are raised at the resurrection will not marry, however, I don't see anything that is speaking of the nations not marrying.

Hi Butch

I believe the dilemma is growing since the Nations your referring to will not be around. They will be destroyed prior to the New Heavens and Earth; in the futuristic Paradise you believe will exist.

Revelation 20:7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

8 and will go outto deceive THE NATIONS in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — togather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, thecity he loves. BUT FIRE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DEVOURED [the nations] THEM.

If you haves omething more specific concerning your statement please post it. It would not do you justice, or fair to the reader, if we just take you at your word. Please provide scripture on your comment, or try to clear up what you mean.

Are we not speaking about after the corpses come to life in the resurrection?

 

[Guest]

....he would not answer simple questions...

I dont remember a question? So ask away, I will be glad to answer any question you have.

Oh...so now you are ready to answer questions? Ok, please go back and look at my posts to YOU and answer my questions. Thank you.

Instead of insulting him, why don't you just give him the post#.

 

[George Muller]

I believe all of Scripture.

Good, this should be easy for you?

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It is easy for me, I believe what the Scriptures say, not the translators opinons. I've explained it to you already. George, let me ask you a question, since you believe the passage is saying that Christians are seated with Christ in Heaven and you are on earth, does that mean you are not a Christian? You've still not answered my question

Well I am in fact seated with Christ in the heavens with Him, just as the scripture says in plain words. I would ask you again, did you see your self get saved? What did it look like when you where born-again? Where did your sins go? Did you see them when His Blood washed them away? No you did not see any of these things, but you read His Word and you believe and trust in their clear intention. Have you ever seen the Holy Spirit? No, but if you are saved you know He abides in you? Now can the Holy Sprit be in you and be in heaven? Yes, Can God reason that we are already raised with Christ, because its true in spirit, not in flesh? Yes, and He cannot lie.

 

[Grappler]

I believe all of Scripture.

Good, this should be easy for you?

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It is easy for me, I believe what the Scriptures say, not the translators opinons. I've explained it to you already. George, let me ask you a question, since you believe the passage is saying that Christians are seated with Christ in Heaven and you are on earth, does that mean you are not a Christian? You've still not answered my question

Well I am in fact seated with Christ in the heavens with Him, just as the scripture says in plain words. I would ask you again, did you see your self get saved? What did it look like when you where born-again? Where did your sins go? Did you see them when His Blood washed them away? No you did not see any of these things, but you read His Word and you believe and trust in their clear intention. Have you ever seen the Holy Spirit? No, but if you are saved you know He abides in you? Now can the Holy Sprit be in you and be in heaven? Yes, Can God reason that we are already raised with Christ, because its true in spirit, not in flesh? Yes, and He cannot lie.

Hey Butch...I think we are done here.:biglol Well...at least I am...see you all on another topic.

 

[Butch5]

It is easy for me, I believe what the Scriptures say, not the translators opinons. I've explained it to you already. George, let me ask you a question, since you believe the passage is saying that Christians are seated with Christ in Heaven and you are on earth, does that mean you are not a Christian? You've still not answered my question

Well I am in fact seated with Christ in the heavens with Him, just as the scripture says in plain words. I would ask you again, did you see your self get saved? What did it look like when you where born-again? Where did your sins go? Did you see them when His Blood washed them away? No you did not see any of these things, but you read His Word and you believe and trust in their clear intention. Have you ever seen the Holy Spirit? No, but if you are saved you know He abides in you? Now can the Holy Sprit be in you and be in heaven? Yes, Can God reason that we are already raised with Christ, because its true in spirit, not in flesh? Yes, and He cannot lie.

Hey Butch...I think we are done here.:biglol Well...at least I am...see you all on another topic.

When logic and reasoning go out the window its over.

 

[Butch5]

I believe all of Scripture.

Good, this should be easy for you?

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

It is easy for me, I believe what the Scriptures say, not the translators opinons. I've explained it to you already. George, let me ask you a question, since you believe the passage is saying that Christians are seated with Christ in Heaven and you are on earth, does that mean you are not a Christian? You've still not answered my question

Well I am in fact seated with Christ in the heavens with Him, just as the scripture says in plain words. I would ask you again, did you see your self get saved? What did it look like when you where born-again? Where did your sins go? Did you see them when His Blood washed them away? No you did not see any of these things, but you read His Word and you believe and trust in their clear intention. Have you ever seen the Holy Spirit? No, but if you are saved you know He abides in you? Now can the Holy Sprit be in you and be in heaven? Yes, Can God reason that we are already raised with Christ, because its true in spirit, not in flesh? Yes, and He cannot lie.

George this is nothing but a red herring. You're not answering my questions. Are you on earth? If as you believe the passage says Christians are seated with Christ in the heavens and you are on earth does that mean you are not a Christian?

 

[Butch5]

No, this doesn't create any dilemmas for me. Those who are raised at the resurrection will not marry, however, I don't see anything that is speaking of the nations not marrying.

Hi Butch

I believe the dilemma is growing since the Nations your referring to will not be around. They will be destroyed prior to the New Heavens and Earth; in the futuristic Paradise you believe will exist.

Revelation 20:7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

8 and will go outto deceive THE NATIONS in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — togather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, thecity he loves. BUT FIRE CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DEVOURED [the nations] THEM.

If you haves omething more specific concerning your statement please post it. It would not do you justice, or fair to the reader, if we just take you at your word. Please provide scripture on your comment, or try to clear up what you mean.

Are we not speaking about after the corpses come to life in the resurrection?

Hi before time,

The passage you quoted from Isaiah describes the coming of Christ's kingdom, the passage you quoted here describes the end of Christ's kingdom. When Christ comes He will resurrect the believers, not the unbelievers. This is the first resurrection.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is the passage right before what you posted. Notice John speaks of the first resurrection. He says these will rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years and then the nations will be destroyed. So, the nations will be here during the thousand years and at the end of that thousand years Satan will be released to tempt the world one more time and then he will be destroyed.


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:4-15 KJV)

This is why I said it doesn't cause me a dilemma. I see no reason why these nations would not procreate even though those who have been resurrected do not.

 

[George Muller]

It is easy for me, I believe what the Scriptures say, not the translators opinons. I've explained it to you already. George, let me ask you a question, since you believe the passage is saying that Christians are seated with Christ in Heaven and you are on earth, does that mean you are not a Christian? You've still not answered my question

Well I am in fact seated with Christ in the heavens with Him, just as the scripture says in plain words. I would ask you again, did you see your self get saved? What did it look like when you where born-again? Where did your sins go? Did you see them when His Blood washed them away? No you did not see any of these things, but you read His Word and you believe and trust in their clear intention. Have you ever seen the Holy Spirit? No, but if you are saved you know He abides in you? Now can the Holy Sprit be in you and be in heaven? Yes, Can God reason that we are already raised with Christ, because its true in spirit, not in flesh? Yes, and He cannot lie.

George this is nothing but a red herring. You're not answering my questions. Are you on earth? If as you believe the passage says Christians are seated with Christ in the heavens and you are on earth does that mean you are not a Christian?

If you are waiting for me to move from the clear and evident reading of Gods Word? You will be having a very long wait. The scriptures are clear and cannot be removed because you do not believe or understand them. Now I have tried to help you understand how the truth of this scripture is true in the spirit and not in the flesh. We are not saved in the flesh, but in the spirit.

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Call it what you like? its Gods Word and it cannot be challenged. God cannot lie and He says we ARE seated IN HEAVEN with Christ.

 

[Eugene]

http://www.christianforums.net/showt...l=1#post812847

I have several questions about what you posted but first I'd like to see how you understand that fitting the context of the conversation that Jesus was involved in. How does what you posted there fit the context? Also, how does it relate toe parable before it about the unfaithful steward?

Luke 16:1-18 An easy extension of good stewardship of riches and faithfulness versus the result and consequence of trusting in them in Luke 16:19-31. The steward cannot serve two masters; judgment or reward being his pay.

 

[Butch5]

It is easy for me, I believe what the Scriptures say, not the translators opinons. I've explained it to you already. George, let me ask you a question, since you believe the passage is saying that Christians are seated with Christ in Heaven and you are on earth, does that mean you are not a Christian? You've still not answered my question

Well I am in fact seated with Christ in the heavens with Him, just as the scripture says in plain words. I would ask you again, did you see your self get saved? What did it look like when you where born-again? Where did your sins go? Did you see them when His Blood washed them away? No you did not see any of these things, but you read His Word and you believe and trust in their clear intention. Have you ever seen the Holy Spirit? No, but if you are saved you know He abides in you? Now can the Holy Sprit be in you and be in heaven? Yes, Can God reason that we are already raised with Christ, because its true in spirit, not in flesh? Yes, and He cannot lie.

George this is nothing but a red herring. You're not answering my questions. Are you on earth? If as you believe the passage says Christians are seated with Christ in the heavens and you are on earth does that mean you are not a Christian?

If you are waiting for me to move from the clear and evident reading of Gods Word? You will be having a very long wait. The scriptures are clear and cannot be removed because you do not believe or understand them. Now I have tried to help you understand how the truth of this scripture is true in the spirit and not in the flesh. We are not saved in the flesh, but in the spirit.

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Call it what you like? its Gods Word and it cannot be challenged. God cannot lie and He says we ARE seated IN HEAVEN with Christ.

No George, it's not. The word "places" is not in the Greek text. You can quote that passage a million times and the word "places" still will not be in the Greek text.

BGT Ephesians 2:6 καὶ συνήγειρεν καὶ συνεκάθισεν ἐν τοῖς ἐπουρανίοις ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, (Eph 2:6 BGT)

It's heavenly, and it's plural, thus translated the "heavenlies".

 

[Butch5]

http://www.christianforums.net/showt...l=1#post812847

I have several questions about what you posted but first I'd like to see how you understand that fitting the context of the conversation that Jesus was involved in. How does what you posted there fit the context? Also, how does it relate toe parable before it about the unfaithful steward?

Luke 16:1-18 An easy extension of good stewardship of riches and faithfulness versus the result and consequence of trusting in them in Luke 16:19-31. The steward cannot serve two masters; judgment or reward being his pay.

Ok, In Luke 14 Jesus enters the house of one of the chief Pharisees. Once there he begins a series of parables, what is the purpose of these parables? The rich man a Lazarus is one of the parables.

Also, why does Jesus make the comment about adultery, seeming out of the blue just before the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

 

[Eugene]

Ok, In Luke 14 Jesus enters the house of one of the chief Pharisees. Once there he begins a series of parables, what is the purpose of these parables? The rich man a Lazarus is one of the parables.

Also, why does Jesus make the comment about adultery, seeming out of the blue just before the parable of Lazarus and the rich man?

You win - how's that? I personally believe in heaven, hell, and the lake of fire. I'm not into JW's, Mormonism, Universalism, or other religions teaching otherwise, and I'm not saying you are. If what I have shared is not sufficient I have no desire to go further.

Thanks and have a good day Butch.