Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

[Butch5]

The inheritance is the land promised to Abraham, it is spoken of a s being in heaven, but, that doesn't mean we'll go there. We are coheirs with Christ and Christ is in heaven.

If you're a born again christian, you will in fact go to heaven. ;)

Hi Urk,

There is nothing in the Scriptures that states this. This idea actually has came into the church from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

 

[Butch5]

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[a] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[b] to the praise of his glory. When I came to faith in Christ Jesus, I believed (believe) his promises to us. Our inheritance is in heaven. We will acquire possession of it after the Bema Seat of Christ. Praise the Lord.

1Jo 5:10 ¶ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Joh 14:1 ¶ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Hi George,

I'm not sure how the first verse pertains to heaven, but, the second says that Jesus is coming back to earth.

Well it describes how a Christian "hath the witness in himself" I believe most can understand how that pertains to "why one would believe" they are secure and have a confidence of heaven.
I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. :angel3 :D

George, I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but there is nothing in Scripture that says people go to heave. In the passage you quoted Jesus said, I will come again that where I am, you may be also. Clearly in order to be with Christ it requires His coming back here.

 

[George Muller]

George, I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but there is nothing in Scripture that says people go to heave. In the passage you quoted Jesus said, I will come again that where I am, you may be also. Clearly in order to be with Christ it requires His coming back here

Mt 5:3 ¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Mt 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
Mt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven,
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I could go on and on but my fingers are getting tired

 

[Guest]

The inheritance is the land promised to Abraham, it is spoken of a s being in heaven, but, that doesn't mean we'll go there. We are coheirs with Christ and Christ is in heaven.

If you're a born again christian, you will in fact go to heaven. ;)

Hi Urk,

There is nothing in the Scriptures that states this. This idea actually has came into the church from Greek philosophy and Gnosticism.

and the beat goes on...

 

[Butch5]

George, I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but there is nothing in Scripture that says people go to heave. In the passage you quoted Jesus said, I will come again that where I am, you may be also. Clearly in order to be with Christ it requires His coming back here

Mt 5:3 ¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Mt 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
Mt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven,
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I could go on and on but my fingers are getting tired

Hi George,

This is how the error is perpetuated. Nothing here says that Christians go to Heaven. The kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom that come from Heaven. Your reward is in Heaven and Jesus said when He comes His reward is with Him. People read these passages and infer from them what is not stated.

 

[George Muller]

George, I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but there is nothing in Scripture that says people go to heave. In the passage you quoted Jesus said, I will come again that where I am, you may be also. Clearly in order to be with Christ it requires His coming back here

Mt 5:3 ¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Mt 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
Mt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven,
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I could go on and on but my fingers are getting tired

Hi George,

This is how the error is perpetuated. Nothing here says that Christians go to Heaven. The kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom that come from Heaven. Your reward is in Heaven and Jesus said when He comes His reward is with Him. People read these passages and infer from them what is not stated.

I will go on
Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mr 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mr 16:19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

In truth I am already in heaven, and so is all those who are born from above.

I have a bunch more but I will let you digest how far from truth you are to this point.:naughty

 

[Grappler]

But Paul wanted to die and be in the presence of the Lord. Why, if he already is in the Lord's presence in the sense you point out here? There's something clearly different about being here, and being with Jesus after you die. Jesus is in heaven. To be with Jesus is to be in heaven with him.

I would submit that John is using the word soul metaphorically. An actual living soul in the Scriptures is tied to the flesh. Additionally, John is seeing heaven and earth simultaneously.

This doesn't explain the alter. The alter is in heaven.

One of the most twisted verses in the bible. 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." No where does Paul say that when one dies they go staight to the Heaven. He simply said he would RATHER be dead and with Jesus than alive....well what Christian wouldn't?? To use this verse to some how develope a doctrine of going to heaven at death in the consideration of the other teachings of Paul that clearly state that we sleep does not stand in the face of logic and proper hermaneutics.

this verse does not clearly state that we" sleep" either. In fact regardless of what one believes,"heaven or sleep" it most definitely does not infer "sleep"

we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the(home) body and to be at home with the Lord.

From the ekdnmew home(body) Aorist Active~~to home evdnmew (Face to face with the Lord) Aorist active. From this home to our home is an instant in time. It in NO way infers over a period of time or "sleep"

Matt 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

uh...yeah i know....never said it did say anything about sleep

 

[Grappler]

George, I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but there is nothing in Scripture that says people go to heave. In the passage you quoted Jesus said, I will come again that where I am, you may be also. Clearly in order to be with Christ it requires His coming back here

Mt 5:3 ¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Mt 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
Mt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven,
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I could go on and on but my fingers are getting tired

Hi George,

This is how the error is perpetuated. Nothing here says that Christians go to Heaven. The kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom that come from Heaven. Your reward is in Heaven and Jesus said when He comes His reward is with Him. People read these passages and infer from them what is not stated.

Excellent point. People have been "brainwashed" by mainstream Christianity for so long that tradition becomes fact but when one takes scripture as a whole and within proper context one sees that we do NOT go to heaven when we die. This teaching probably began with the RCC and carried over to Protestant churches.

 

[Butch5]

George, I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but there is nothing in Scripture that says people go to heave. In the passage you quoted Jesus said, I will come again that where I am, you may be also. Clearly in order to be with Christ it requires His coming back here

Mt 5:3 ¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Mt 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
Mt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven,
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I could go on and on but my fingers are getting tired

Hi George,

This is how the error is perpetuated. Nothing here says that Christians go to Heaven. The kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom that come from Heaven. Your reward is in Heaven and Jesus said when He comes His reward is with Him. People read these passages and infer from them what is not stated.

I will go on
Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mr 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mr 16:19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

In truth I am already in heaven, and so is all those who are born from above.

I have a bunch more but I will let you digest how far from truth you are to this point.:naughty

George, did you read my post? Quoting passages about Heaven doesn't mean people go there.

 

[Butch5]

George, I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but there is nothing in Scripture that says people go to heave. In the passage you quoted Jesus said, I will come again that where I am, you may be also. Clearly in order to be with Christ it requires His coming back here

Mt 5:3 ¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Mt 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:
Mt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven,
Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

I could go on and on but my fingers are getting tired

Hi George,

This is how the error is perpetuated. Nothing here says that Christians go to Heaven. The kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom that come from Heaven. Your reward is in Heaven and Jesus said when He comes His reward is with Him. People read these passages and infer from them what is not stated.

Excellent point. People have been "brainwashed" by mainstream Christianity for so long that tradition becomes fact but when one takes scripture as a whole and within proper context one sees that we do NOT go to heaven when we die. This teaching probably began with the RCC and carried over to Protestant churches.

Hi Grappler,

I agree. Actually, I believe the idea of going to Heaven enter the church before the RCC. The earliest teaching of this that I see is from Clement of Alexandria and Origen in the mid to late 200's. Clement of Alexandria was apparently a fan of Plato because that is where he got the idea from.

 

[Butch5]

But Paul wanted to die and be in the presence of the Lord. Why, if he already is in the Lord's presence in the sense you point out here? There's something clearly different about being here, and being with Jesus after you die. Jesus is in heaven. To be with Jesus is to be in heaven with him.

I would submit that John is using the word soul metaphorically. An actual living soul in the Scriptures is tied to the flesh. Additionally, John is seeing heaven and earth simultaneously.

This doesn't explain the alter. The alter is in heaven.

One of the most twisted verses in the bible. 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." No where does Paul say that when one dies they go staight to the Heaven. He simply said he would RATHER be dead and with Jesus than alive....well what Christian wouldn't?? To use this verse to some how develope a doctrine of going to heaven at death in the consideration of the other teachings of Paul that clearly state that we sleep does not stand in the face of logic and proper hermaneutics.

this verse does not clearly state that we" sleep" either. In fact regardless of what one believes,"heaven or sleep" it most definitely does not infer "sleep"

we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the(home) body and to be at home with the Lord.

From the ekdnmew home(body) Aorist Active~~to home evdnmew (Face to face with the Lord) Aorist active. From this home to our home is an instant in time. It in NO way infers over a period of time or "sleep"

Matt 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Where in Scripture do you find the statement below made?

From this home to our home is an instant in time.

 

[Butch5]

Philippians 3:20~~For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

Philippians 1:27 is translated well in the new living bible when compared to the original greek. politeuomai is used as "citizens of heaven"

Above all, you must live as citizens of heaven, conducting yourselves in a manner worthy of the Good News about Christ. Then, whether I come and see you again or only hear about you, I will know that you are standing together with one spirit and one purpose, fighting together for the faith, which is the Good News.

Paul is commanding the Philippians in Philippians 1:27 and 3:20 and
all Church Age believers to whom it is applicable to conduct themselves as citizens of heaven
while here on earth. He is commanding the Philippians and all Church Age believers to function
or conduct themselves under all the privileges and responsibilities that their heavenly citizenship
confers.

Ephesians 1:3 states that the Church
Age believer has been blessed “with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ.â€
The doctrine of current positional truth which is a result of the Baptism of the Spirit states that
the Church Age believer is currently seated with Christ “in the heavenly places in Christ
Jesus†(Eph. 2:6). God the Holy Spirit through the Baptism of the Spirit places every Church
Age believer in union with Christ for a specific purpose and reason as stated in Ephesians 2:7,
“in order that in the ages to come He (God the Father) might show the surpassing riches of
His grace in graciousness towards us (Church Age believers) in Christ Jesus.†God is
manifesting His infinite wisdom and grace which is the expression and reflection of His perfect
integrity through the Church as stated in Ephesians 3:10, “in order that the multidimensional
wisdom of God might now be made known through the Church to the rulers and the
authorities (fallen angels) located in the heavenlies (1st, 2nd and 3rd heaven).†Church Age
believers are said to be “partakers of a heavenly calling (election)†(Heb. 3:1). Therefore, the
Church Age believer just as the illustrious members of God’s Hall of Fame are to “desire a
better country, that is a heavenly one†where God has prepared the New Jerusalem for them
(Heb. 11:16). The Church Age believers are citizens of the New Jerusalem.

The passage says one's citizenship is in Heaven, not the people. Jesus is in Heaven now and so is the kingdom. However, the kingdom is coming to earth, the subjects are not going to Heaven. Don't you guys find it troubling that you can't find a single passage of Scripture stating people go to Heaven. All you guys have done is just what I said in the beginning, you've inferred it.

Ephesians 1:3 is speaking of the Jews not Christians and the word "places" is not in the text. The heavenlies is an adjective an is in the neuter gender. You said believers are citizens of the New Jerusalem. What does John say about the New Jerusalem?

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Rev 21:2-3 KJV)

John said the New Jerusalem was coming down out of Heaven and that God would dwell with men. He didn't say men will go to Heaven and dwell with God.

 

[George Muller]

says one's citizenship is in Heaven, not the people.

Philippians 3:20~~For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[George Muller]

Hi George,

This is how the error is perpetuated. Nothing here says that Christians go to Heaven. The kingdom of Heaven is the kingdom that come from Heaven. Your reward is in Heaven and Jesus said when He comes His reward is with Him. People read these passages and infer from them what is not stated.

I will go on
Mt 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mr 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mr 16:19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

In truth I am already in heaven, and so is all those who are born from above.

I have a bunch more but I will let you digest how far from truth you are to this point.:naughty

George, did you read my post? Quoting passages about Heaven doesn't mean people go there.

No not people but born-again believers

 

[George Muller]

Excellent point. People have been "brainwashed" by mainstream Christianity for so long that tradition becomes fact but when one takes scripture as a whole and within proper context one sees that we do NOT go to heaven when we die. This teaching probably began with the RCC and carried over to Protestant churches.

No your right some will not make it to heaven, because they do not love the truth.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Php 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: (ASV)
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (KJV)

 

[Deborah13]

Christian, why do you believe you'll go to Heaven?

Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.
I am weak but HE is strong.

 

[Butch5]

...Why? Because believers go to be with Jesus, who is already in heaven (Acts 1:11 NASB), when they die:

"...having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better..." (Philippians 1:23 NASB)

In Revelation we see the departed souls of the martyrs there:

"...I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?†" (Revelation 6:9-10 NASB)

At the end of the age those in heaven will return, with Jesus, to be reunited with their glorified bodies to dwell on earth:

"14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

17 ...we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:14,17 NASB)


It's good that you ask:

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1 Peter 3:15 NASB)

Hi Jethro,

I agree that we'll dwell on the earth, however, I don't agree that we go to heaven. There's nothing in Scripture that says that, it's simply inferred. David said, where can I go from your presence.

KJV Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (Psa 139:8 KJV)

One doesn't have to be in heaven to be in the presence of the Lord.

But Paul wanted to die and be in the presence of the Lord. Why, if he already is in the Lord's presence in the sense you point out here? There's something clearly different about being here, and being with Jesus after you die. Jesus is in heaven. To be with Jesus is to be in heaven with him.

I would submit that John is using the word soul metaphorically. An actual living soul in the Scriptures is tied to the flesh. Additionally, John is seeing heaven and earth simultaneously.

This doesn't explain the alter. The alter is in heaven.

I have to disagree, I would suggest that what Paul has in mind is the resurrection. Paul had been a Pharisee and was well aware, I'm sure, of what the OT teaches about death. There is nothing in the OT that would suggest that people go to Heaven. Solomon said when man dies he returns to the dust and the spirit/breath returns to God. If we look at the creation of Adam we that God took dust of the earth to form a body and breathed the breath/spirit of life into it. Therefore when a man dies his body returns to the dust and God's spirit/breath returns to Him.

Concerning the alter John is seeing Heaven and earth simultaneously. The alter is in heaven, the souls are under the alter. what is under Heaven? The earth. However, I believe John is using it metaphorically here, similar to the way God used it when speaking of Abel's blood. God said to Cain that Abel's blood was crying out from the ground.

 

[George Muller]

I think maybe no matter what scripture is posted, some will not accept the clear and evident truth?

 

[Butch5]

I was utterly amazed to learn churches divide over whether the kingdom is on earth, or if it is in heaven. Utterly amazed.

I was attending a church and learned that several members had come over to this church because they disagreed on this issue in their other church. Honestly, that tells me a lot about them.

I found this out the hard way when I made a passing reference to this subject in something I said in a Bible study. Just another of several reasons I won't touch formal ministry with a ten foot pole. Believers can be so vicious over the least meaningful things in the faith...while they utterly ignore what really does matter in the faith. Truthfully, lately it just makes me want to die and go to be with Jesus...in heaven, lol. The church is in such a pathetic mess these days.

I can relate to your frustration. I was trying to a class on the timing of the return of Christ and people were getting all upset. I'm thinking, I'd like to know, but, I guess they didn't.

 

[turnorburn]

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

tob