Christian Zionism

[reba]

But it is part of the Land, and that part is sufficient to restore the physical Israel that must be in place prior to the Rapture and Tribulation. The Ezekiel 39 prophecy of the attack on Israel being struck down by the hand of God is not a spiritual, euphemistic event. It is an attack on the physical nation of Israel. There has to be such a place for that to happen. Ezekiel indicates this miraculous defeat of Israel's enemies will lead to the revival of spiritual Israel.

Is there passage/s to back the idea that God is not total in His promises?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Is there passage/s to back the idea that God is not total in His promises?

The fulfillment of any Biblical prophecy can be a "double dip." In other words, it can be fulfilled more than once, the first fulfillment almost always being a foreshadowing of the second. For example, the destruction of Babylon was very thorough, but it only foreshadows the complete destruction of Babylon at the end of the Tribulation. Then there is the prophecy of Daniel being partially fulfilled through Antiochus Ephiphanes, the tyrant who so cowed Israel by sacrificing her sons and daughters in open public displays, his favorite being the giant frying pan erected just outside the Temple proper, and by his complete and utter desecration of the Temple with pig's blood. That, however, only foreshadowed the more thorough desecration of the future Temple by the antichrist, who will use the building in the second half of the Tribulation to seek worship for himself by the world, and who will display his utter inhumanity not just to Israel, but the Tribulation believers, who will be beheaded if they refuse to take his mark.

One fulfillment, partial as it may be, does not constitute a failure by God to deliver on His promises, but is always a foreshadowing of the future and complete fulfillment.

 

[Deborah13]

The fulfillment of any Biblical prophecy can be a "double dip." In other words, it can be fulfilled more than once, the first fulfillment almost always being a foreshadowing of the second. For example, the destruction of Babylon was very thorough, but it only foreshadows the complete destruction of Babylon at the end of the Tribulation. Then there is the prophecy of Daniel being partially fulfilled through Antiochus Ephiphanes, the tyrant who so cowed Israel by sacrificing her sons and daughters in open public displays, his favorite being the giant frying pan erected just outside the Temple proper, and by his complete and utter desecration of the Temple with pig's blood. That, however, only foreshadowed the more thorough desecration of the future Temple by the antichrist, who will use the building in the second half of the Tribulation to seek worship for himself by the world, and who will display his utter inhumanity not just to Israel, but the Tribulation believers, who will be beheaded if they refuse to take his mark.

One fulfillment, partial as it may be, does not constitute a failure by God to deliver on His promises, but is always a foreshadowing of the future and complete fulfillment.

Numbers, would you please give me one or two authors who have a good teaching on this subject.

Many years ago I took a class, you are ringing bells. Thanks

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Numbers, would you please give me one or two authors who have a good teaching on this subject.

Many years ago I took a class, you are ringing bells. Thanks

Don K. Preston is one author. The link below has one of his online articles, which deals more with the false teaching of postmillenialism than it does the fact of doubly-fulfilled prophecy, but if you do some searches for him, you'll find other sources.

http://www.eschatology.org/index.ph...ble-fulfillment-of-prophecy-and-joel-mcdurmon

 

[Deborah13]

Don K. Preston is one author. The link below has one of his online articles, which deals more with the false teaching of postmillenialism than it does the fact of doubly-fulfilled prophecy, but if you do some searches for him, you'll find other sources.

http://www.eschatology.org/index.ph...ble-fulfillment-of-prophecy-and-joel-mcdurmon

Thanks a bunch, I'll get right with it.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason: Nobody is arguing that Israel is a secular, and by and large, a Jesus rejecting nation. I do not think for one second that Israel in its current state of secularism, will not face extreme trials and tribulations before the end of the age. It has been prophecied. That is how they will come to accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. Not by wins on the battlefield, but by struggles and hardship. Israel is in for a rude awakening before the coming of Jesus on the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14:1-3 "Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.


And the Lord makes it clear about why he is doing this.


Ezekiel 36:21 But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.

Ezekiel 36:22-25 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols

Ezekiel 36:31-32 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

He is using Israel to declare his Holy Name amongst the nations.

so why then the church? isn't the Name above all name doing that in the church. so the church is failing?
.
the idea of a pre mil and or ancient chialism as taught by martyr is off. why? because any saved isreal is now what? a Christ following nation. that means the torah is done and what is the new convenant that is in place? the mosaic law or the cross?if its the cross then show me where it says the gospel is for a limited time, when Christ returns the torah comes back. and we have some that preach that here.

 

[jasoncran]

you ignore these things.

Ezekiel 42

13 Then said he unto me, The north chambers and the south chambers, which are before the separate place, they be holy chambers, where the priests that approach unto the Lord shall eat the most holy things: there shall they lay the most holy things, and the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; for the place is holy.
14 When the priests enter therein, then shall they not go out of the holy place into the utter court, but there they shall lay their garments wherein they minister; for they are holy; and shall put on other garments, and shall approach to those things which are for the people.

Ezekiel 43

7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.
8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.
9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

that is an if and they didn't repent then during the captivity

notice what it says

18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord God; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
24 And thou shalt offer them before the Lord, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the Lord.
25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord God.

.



all these are conditional and very torah like in nature. thus it cant be.

44 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
4 Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord: and I fell upon my face.
5 And the Lord said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the Lord, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.
6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,
7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.
8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.
9 Thus saith the Lord God; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:
16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.
19 And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.
20 Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.
21 Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.
23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
25 And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26 And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord God.
28 And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.
29 They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering: and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
30 And the first of all the firstfruits of all things, and every oblation of all, of every sort of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house.
31 The priests shall not eat of any thing that is dead of itself, or torn, whether it be fowl or beast

 

[jasoncran]

45 Moreover, when ye shall divide by lot the land for inheritance, ye shall offer an oblation unto the Lord, an holy portion of the land: the length shall be the length of five and twenty thousand reeds, and the breadth shall be ten thousand. This shall be holy in all the borders thereof round about.
2 Of this there shall be for the sanctuary five hundred in length, with five hundred in breadth, square round about; and fifty cubits round about for the suburbs thereof.
3 And of this measure shalt thou measure the length of five and twenty thousand, and the breadth of ten thousand: and in it shall be the sanctuary and the most holy place.
4 The holy portion of the land shall be for the priests the ministers of the sanctuary, which shall come near to minister unto the Lord: and it shall be a place for their houses, and an holy place for the sanctuary.
5 And the five and twenty thousand of length, and the ten thousand of breadth shall also the Levites, the ministers of the house, have for themselves, for a possession for twenty chambers.
6 And ye shall appoint the possession of the city five thousand broad, and five and twenty thousand long, over against the oblation of the holy portion: it shall be for the whole house of Israel.
7 And a portion shall be for the prince on the one side and on the other side of the oblation of the holy portion, and of the possession of the city, before the oblation of the holy portion, and before the possession of the city, from the west side westward, and from the east side eastward: and the length shall be over against one of the portions, from the west border unto the east border.
8 In the land shall be his possession in Israel: and my princes shall no more oppress my people; and the rest of the land shall they give to the house of Israel according to their tribes.
9 Thus saith the Lord God; Let it suffice you, O princes of Israel: remove violence and spoil, and execute judgment and justice, take away your exactions from my people, saith the Lord God.
10 Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.
11 The ephah and the bath shall be of one measure, that the bath may contain the tenth part of an homer, and the ephah the tenth part of an homer: the measure thereof shall be after the homer.
12 And the shekel shall be twenty gerahs: twenty shekels, five and twenty shekels, fifteen shekels, shall be your maneh.
13 This is the oblation that ye shall offer; the sixth part of an ephah of an homer of wheat, and ye shall give the sixth part of an ephah of an homer of barley:
14 Concerning the ordinance of oil, the bath of oil, ye shall offer the tenth part of a bath out of the cor, which is an homer of ten baths; for ten baths are an homer:
15 And one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, out of the fat pastures of Israel; for a meat offering, and for a burnt offering, and for peace offerings, to make reconciliation for them, saith the Lord God.
16 All the people of the land shall give this oblation for the prince in Israel.
17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
18 Thus saith the Lord God; In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and cleanse the sanctuary:
19 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
20 And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house.
21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
22 And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
23 And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the Lord, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a kid of the goats daily for a sin offering.
24 And he shall prepare a meat offering of an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and an hin of oil for an ephah.
25 In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days, according to the sin

im sorry that implies they must repent. secular isreal has yet to do that and when did after the cross does it say the Lord must accept the torah again as jesus ended that at the cross. its done.

as a jew I don't need to do shabat, nor be kosher nor any of that to be right with god. sorry that is what Jesus came to do.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

you ignore these things.

Who are you talking to? First, I never said they didn't need to repent (assuming you are talking to me), and 2) the remnant of faithful Jews are Old Testament believers of the faith of Abraham, or they are the Messianics, either one. These are the ones who maintain the faith of Israel and represent the spiritual nation of Israel.

 

[Deborah13]

im sorry that implies they must repent. secular isreal has yet to do that and when did after the cross does it say the Lord must accept the torah again as jesus ended that at the cross. its done.

as a jew I don't need to do shabat, nor be kosher nor any of that to be right with god. sorry that is what Jesus came to do.

Jason, who are the 144,000 jews during the trib?

 

[jasoncran]

the 144,000 were sealed and are in heaven. sorry. they cant be saved now as the isreal blood line isn't so that pure. they would have to be virgins and dan is excluded.

 

[jasoncran]

Who are you talking to? First, I never said they didn't need to repent (assuming you are talking to me), and 2) the remnant of faithful Jews are Old Testament believers of the faith of Abraham, or they are the Messianics, either one. These are the ones who maintain the faith of Israel and represent the spiritual nation of Israel.

then they are already in heaven. a paul is a messianic jew. where will the 12 and the early messianic church be in the rapture? heaven or on earth. messianic judiasm isn't a jewishto d faith. its a Christian sect. they pick which law to follow. sorry they do.in the mosaic law if a man cursed god he was to die. the same fate is with those who don't do the shabat or the Passover they died. do messianics follow that today? NO they dont

 

[jasoncran]

if they are raptured with the church then you have a problem. those early jews then are more "jewish" then the modern jews. jews also state the torah has lost accounts (oral stories).I say that because the modern jew cant do the torah. he follows what he can.

besides what is the difference tween a saved jew then and saved jew in the trib? are they not both in Christ?how many ressurections will they need?

 

[Deborah13]

if they are raptured with the church then you have a problem. those early jews then are more "jewish" then the modern jews. jews also state the torah has lost accounts (oral stories).I say that because the modern jew cant do the torah. he follows what he can.

besides what is the difference tween a saved jew then and saved jew in the trib? are they not both in Christ?how many ressurections will they need?

Well geez, I didn't get that post deleted quick enough when I realized what a dumb answer that was!!!

 

[Deborah13]

if they are raptured with the church then you have a problem. those early jews then are more "jewish" then the modern jews. jews also state the torah has lost accounts (oral stories).I say that because the modern jew cant do the torah. he follows what he can.

besides what is the difference tween a saved jew then and saved jew in the trib? are they not both in Christ?how many ressurections will they need?

there is no difference between any saved believer OT NT etc.
Which 12 a you asking about, you do abbreviate, the 12 apostles, the 12,000 from each tribe? Are they all in heaven or just 144,000?
I really don't know about the resurrections. I've been reading back and forth. I was taught, Hal Lindsey, Dakes, except I sure didn't remember anything about sacrifices.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

then they are already in heaven. a paul is a messianic jew. where will the 12 and the early messianic church be in the rapture? heaven or on earth. messianic judiasm isn't a jewishto d faith. its a Christian sect. they pick which law to follow. sorry they do.in the mosaic law if a man cursed god he was to die. the same fate is with those who don't do the shabat or the Passover they died. do messianics follow that today? NO they dont

You're talking about the individuals. I'm talking about those of the Twelve Tribes who remain. Do you not think the Jewish faithful (I'm talking the ones who believe God, as Abraham did, but do not believe Christ has yet come) know the tribal membership and can identify them today, two thousand years after the Second Diaspera? There are many who labor under the misconception that, with the advent of Christ, the faith of Israel was crushed. Not true. God is not done with Israel, and will yet deliver her faithful through the Tribulation and render the land promised to Abraham into their possession.

 

[Deborah13]

I was taught, if I remember correctly that the Church will be on the earth during the Mill. if this is correct what of the blood sacrifices? Is that literal?

 

[jasoncran]

there is no difference between any saved believer OT NT etc.
Which 12 a you asking about, you do abbreviate, the 12 apostles, the 12,000 from each tribe? Are they all in heaven or just 144,000?
I really don't know about the resurrections. I've been reading back and forth. I was taught, Hal Lindsey, Dakes, except I sure didn't remember anything about sacrifices.

there is when it comes to which covenant. king david couldn't just pray to jesus for forgiveness and he had to slay those that broke the law. ie the Passover when they didn't follow or broke the shabat? are we under such commands to do so today?did paul or jesus command us to follow the torah? are we under the law?

 

[jasoncran]

You're talking about the individuals. I'm talking about those of the Twelve Tribes who remain. Do you not think the Jewish faithful (I'm talking the ones who believe God, as Abraham did, but do not believe Christ has yet come) know the tribal membership and can identify them today, two thousand years after the Second Diaspera? There are many who labor under the misconception that, with the advent of Christ, the faith of Israel was crushed. Not true. God is not done with Israel, and will yet deliver her faithful through the Tribulation and render the land promised to Abraham into their possession.

so what will they do when they read acts and also Corinthians on communion? what will be believe in ,
moses or jesus? if jesus then they are part of the same body as us. sorry
so then what of the jews saved now. are we then not of isreal or does one loss his Jewishness when he get saved?the law cant be picked. that is the problem you have. since when do the gentiles come under the torah? show me where it says that the gentiles must follow the torah?
so they don't or cant read or don't need the new testament?sheesh the ignorance of the church is astounding these days.

 

[jasoncran]

I was taught, if I remember correctly that the Church will be on the earth during the Mill. if this is correct what of the blood sacrifices? Is that literal?

that is why I don't by them MIL
I have a dakes, I don't read his comments much. he doesn't believe in the trinity and believes in five resurrection and was defrocked by my demonation for solicitation of a prostitute. he also is racist.

Lindsey? that false teacher, the one who predicted the return of the messiah in 1988? when they do that I don't bother with them.