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Christian Zionism

jasoncran said:
there is when it comes to which covenant. king david couldn't just pray to jesus for forgiveness and he had to slay those that broke the law. ie the Passover when they didn't follow or broke the shabat? are we under such commands to do so today?did paul or jesus command us to follow the torah? are we under the law?
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No we are not.
However, I understand that grace was very much at work in the OT?
 
jasoncran said:
that is why I don't by them MIL
I have a dakes, I don't read his comments much. he doesn't believe in the trinity and believes in five resurrection and was defrocked by my demonation for solicitation of a prostitute. he also is racist.

Lindsey? that false teacher, the one who predicted the return of the messiah in 1988? when they do that I don't bother with them.
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I don't use Dakes either, never have, a friend bought one for my dh. But when I heard about the sacrifices I looked it up. My background is AoG for all of this.
 
Deborah13 said:
No we are not.
However, I understand that grace was very much at work in the OT?
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all God did is change the manner of how the sins were given and also the power to overcome was given and more closer ,internal dwelling of him is in effect.grace was around then. so was mercy. in the torah theres no offering for murder nor adultery. yet david was forgiven for both!
 
Jason I am seriously confused how we came from Zionism, to animal sacrifices, to the 144000, to this. :dunno

In the meantime, I will just say Millenium sacrifices will be observed, but as memorials. Jeremiah 33 and Zechariah 14 speak to this. This thread has really lost direction and focus, so I will bow out unless it returns to topic.
 
really? show me where it says that clearly in jeremiah 33?

33 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah the second time, while he was yet shut up in the court of the prison, saying,
2 Thus saith the Lord the maker thereof, the Lord that formed it, to establish it; the Lord is his name;
3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
4 For thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning the houses of this city, and concerning the houses of the kings of Judah, which are thrown down by the mounts, and by the sword;
5 They come to fight with the Chaldeans, but it is to fill them with the dead bodies of men, whom I have slain in mine anger and in my fury, and for all whose wickedness I have hid my face from this city.
6 Behold, I will bring it health and cure, and I will cure them, and will reveal unto them the abundance of peace and truth.
7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.
8 And I will cleanse them from all their iniquity, whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.
9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.
10 Thus saith the Lord; Again there shall be heard in this place, which ye say shall be desolate without man and without beast, even in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, that are desolate, without man, and without inhabitant, and without beast,
11 The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the Lord of hosts: for the Lord is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the Lord. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the Lord.
12 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Again in this place, which is desolate without man and without beast, and in all the cities thereof, shall be an habitation of shepherds causing their flocks to lie down.
13 In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the vale, and in the cities of the south, and in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, shall the flocks pass again under the hands of him that telleth them, saith the Lord.
14 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
17 For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
19 And the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah, saying,
20 Thus saith the Lord; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;
21 Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
23 Moreover the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah, saying,
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the Lord hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25 Thus saith the Lord; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
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I already know a cohen who was raised in temple and doesn't care for messianic judiasm. he is a vegan. all that says is that the levites wont want a man to minister to the lord in offerings. sounds like a church to me. we don't need the torah. nothing there about that nor does zechariah negate my PROBLEM.

why? because if the Jesus is to reign in the third temple per the verse given then why would go then take the fear of men from animals only to have them offered up?

kinda a cruel and harsh way of worship when in context there were worship offerings then in the days of the torah.
 
Ryan said:
Jason I am seriously confused how we came from Zionism, to animal sacrifices, to the 144000, to this. :dunno

In the meantime, I will just say Millenium sacrifices will be observed, but as memorials. Jeremiah 33 and Zechariah 14 speak to this. This thread has really lost direction and focus, so I will bow out unless it returns to topic.
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I'll not ask anymore questions, I think it got there because of the comparing of CT vs Disp
 
Ryan said:
Jason I am seriously confused how we came from Zionism, to animal sacrifices, to the 144000, to this. :dunno

In the meantime, I will just say Millenium sacrifices will be observed, but as memorials. Jeremiah 33 and Zechariah 14 speak to this. This thread has really lost direction and focus, so I will bow out unless it returns to topic.
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What a vial insult to the Blood Of Jesus .
 
Jeremiah 33:11 "...and of those who bring a thank offering into the house of the Lord. For I will restore the fortunes of the land as they were at first,’ says the Lord."

Jeremiah 33:17-18 ".. For thus says the Lord, ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.’â€

Zechariah 14:20-21 "In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.†And the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the bowls before the altar. Every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.

I narrowed it down for you.
 
Isaiah has an interesting statement on that.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
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that implies the torah.
and in part of a sacrifice of worship is listed.
http://www.bible-history.com/tabernacle/TAB4The_5_Levitical_Offerings.htm yet none of them are mentioned directly. sorry I don't buy that.
 
so in the millennium there wont be any sinless levites? they wont have to repent nor be cleansed before the offerings? show me where god changed that.thank offerings there were in the mosaic law. in fact I could argue that jesus didn't need to die if what you say is true.in other words in the millennium if I want to have church and offer thanks I must do it in only Jerusalem.
[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] it is this reason I left the idea of a millennium per teaching when they have to ignore that clear parts of if you do this I will accept you. its clearly mentions only the levites can enter in the temple. no gentile can. only the levites can. sorry. that is why the temple vail was torn so that we could enter into the presence of the lord.
 
jasoncran said:
so in the millennium there wont be any sinless levites? they wont have to repent nor be cleansed before the offerings? show me where god changed that.thank offerings there were in the mosaic law. in fact I could argue that jesus didn't need to die if what you say is true.in other words in the millennium if I want to have church and offer thanks I must do it in only Jerusalem.
[MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] it is this reason I left the idea of a millennium per teaching when they have to ignore that clear parts of if you do this I will accept you. its clearly mentions only the levites can enter in the temple. no gentile can. only the levites can. sorry. that is why the temple vail was torn so that we could enter into the presence of the lord.
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Do you think the sacrifices were all for sin? No there were sacrifices that had nothing to do with sin. Our beloved Paul, when he underwent the Nazirite vow and to complete it for him and the others. Would have required on top of grain and oil offerings, 5 rams I believe. This is post Christ.
 
well after all then. well if today(the torah is our hearts at present if one is a jew, and well I am) I could kill the jew that doesn't do the shabat? or what about those that don't do Passover?i can slay them today too! [MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION], the torah and its codes must be discerned and this is a burden and im glad that jesus did away with that. what the messianic fail to see is the love, love is the torah and if you love and keep it simple the torah will be there but one don't need to do ritual offerings to be doing the heart of the torah.

I have read links on judiasm where it says the blood of goats eic isn't needed to be forgiven and I agree there were exemptions and blood offerings was a way but not the only way to atone.its in the Talmud and also the tanach.
 
it is this reason I left the idea of a millennium per teaching when they have to ignore that clear parts of if you do this I will accept you. its clearly mentions only the levites can enter in the temple. no gentile can. only the levites can. sorry. that is why the temple vail was torn so that we could enter into the presence of the lord.

He opened the Holy of Holies! No more is God hidden... He is once again in the midst of His people...
 
God had a plan of sacrifice at the time of Cain & Able. God's plan of sacrifice is/was The blood of Jesus ... Why do folks want to do as Cain and have their idea of sacrifice acceptable to God?
 
numbers 6 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the Lord:
3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.
5 All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the Lord, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.
6 All the days that he separateth himself unto the Lord he shall come at no dead body.
7 He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die: because the consecration of his God is upon his head.
8 All the days of his separation he is holy unto the Lord.
9 And if any man die very suddenly by him, and he hath defiled the head of his consecration; then he shall shave his head in the day of his cleansing, on the seventh day shall he shave it.
10 And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons, to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
11 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead, and shall hallow his head that same day.
12 And he shall consecrate unto the Lord the days of his separation, and shall bring a lamb of the first year for a trespass offering: but the days that were before shall be lost, because his separation was defiled.
13 And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
14 And he shall offer his offering unto the Lord, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,
15 And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings.
16 And the priest shall bring them before the Lord, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering:
17 And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering.
18 And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.
19 And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven:
20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the Lord: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.
21 This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the Lord for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.
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uhn that mentions when its broken that a sin offering is given, sorry, when paul did that he knew that he had to repent if he broke that. just which way isn't mentioned. or if he did. I choose to believe that god allowed the law and the grace of the cross to coexist for a time until ad 70.

we cant do that know. if we enter the nazarite vow then we can go to the cross to repent but we cant offering a ram for that sin. we are modifying the torah and that is my point.
 
jasoncran said:
well after all then. well if today(the torah is our hearts at present if one is a jew, and well I am) I could kill the jew that doesn't do the shabat? or what about those that don't do Passover?i can slay them today too! [MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION], the torah and its codes must be discerned and this is a burden and im glad that jesus did away with that. what the messianic fail to see is the love, love is the torah and if you love and keep it simple the torah will be there but one don't need to do ritual offerings to be doing the heart of the torah.

I have read links on judiasm where it says the blood of goats eic isn't needed to be forgiven and I agree there were exemptions and blood offerings was a way but not the only way to atone.its in the Talmud and also the tanach.
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Jason, one being studied in the Tanach would know that every law, every ordinance, and every instruction served a purpose. Just to throw out those breaking the Shabbat will get stoned, or unruly children can be stoned as well is degrading the very words that Adonai spoke to Moses. Throwing out random verses that you apparently have no insight to, is irresponsible if I may say. These commandments were Holy to the Lord, they should be Holy to you.

You should know that the laws concerning the temple, courts, governments and Kings cannot be observed or enforced today, thus rendering Shabbat breakers are to be stoned comment, pointless and meaningless.
 
jasoncran said:
uhn that mentions when its broken that a sin offering is given, sorry, when paul did that he knew that he had to repent if he broke that. just which way isn't mentioned. or if he did. I choose to believe that god allowed the law and the grace of the cross to coexist for a time until ad 70.

we cant do that know. if we enter the nazarite vow then we can go to the cross to repent but we cant offering a ram for that sin. we are modifying the torah and that is my point.
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Did Jesus not take a Nazarite vow?
 
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