Christians Placing Hands on People - Healing

[reba]

This is a hot topic like you all don't know that.... Please remember the ToS ....http://www.christianforums.net/announcement.php?f=64&a=6


2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Mitspa]

http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5046&t=KJV

we see that "teleios" is an adjective - describing a person, place, or thing

Thayer Lexicon says that in this instance in 1 Corinthians 13:10 "the perfect state of all things to be ushered in by the return of Christ"

I have caught a couple of folks trying to play games with the Greek, on this forum before. I dont know as much as some but more than enough to catch those who play games with the Greek to support false doctrine.

 

[ezra]

How you know that tongues is not tied to that which is perfect? and that telios is used in the neuter gender?
do you have a Greek parcing guide? If you did you would not have used that spelling of the word telios. Are you sure you know what you are speaking of?

lol gotta love it..there is nothing wrong with studyinng greek/ hebrew..but we have become so educated we pick the bible apart and start finding errors in the word of GOD we have become so politically correct we are biblical Wrong..

 

[reba]

lol gotta love it..there is nothing wrong with studyinng greek/ hebrew..but we have become so educated we pick the bible apart and start finding errors in the word of GOD we have become so politically correct we are biblical Wrong..

he he I love this line....

 

[lowrab777]

I will allways feel personally that 13:10 is in the same context as 13:8 and 13:12 that is the only logical way for me understand that scripture. and it is clear to me that there will be nothing perfect here on this earth until Jesus returns to correct us all and set all things straight Eph 2:9 but as for the laying on of hands I believe there is more evidence for it than against it

 

[ezra]

I have caught a couple of folks trying to play games with the Greek, on this forum before. I dont know as much as some but more than enough to catch those who play games with the Greek to support false doctrine.

so your a expert in Greek.. hold a DR. degree? WE WONDER WHY THERE IS SO MUCH DIVISION in the body of christ. in the book of acts they had all things in common ..... Acts 2:42-47
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Fellowship of the Believers

42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43 And awe[a] came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. 44 And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45 And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. how soon we forget

 

[ezra]

he he I love this line....

i wonder what your dad the old time preacher man would say to all this..i listen to Vernon McGee he get wound up on the liberal bible scholars... if he was alive today he would really preach the word.

 

[Deborah13]

I have caught a couple of folks trying to play games with the Greek, on this forum before. I dont know as much as some but more than enough to catch those who play games with the Greek to support false doctrine.

http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4383&t=KJV

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

This was a deciding verse for me. but then what? Face to face. The link above is once again to the Strong's and Thayer. Looking down through Thayer to how this word is used in this verse, I see the Gk and their reference as the face of God ie. discern perfectly His nature, will, and purposes.

Even the disciples did not always know the perfect will of God or they would not have held the counsel in Jerusalem.

 

[gr8grace]

lol gotta love it..there is nothing wrong with studyinng greek/ hebrew..but we have become so educated we pick the bible apart and start finding errors in the word of GOD we have become so politically correct we are biblical Wrong..

No,No,No we have become so politically correct, that the Bible and being educated in the original language is not politically correct.

 

[Deborah13]

so your a expert in Greek.. hold a DR. degree? WE WONDER WHY THERE IS SO MUCH DIVISION in the body of christ. in the book of acts they had all things in common ..... Acts 2:42-47
English Standard Version (ESV)
The Fellowship of the Believers

42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43 And awe[a] came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. 44 And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45 And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. how soon we forget

Don't be too sad ezra, all will be well. We might get a little irritated but if that same brother that urks us so much were to be in trouble we would all, I dare say, be there to help all we could.

by the way wasn't it in the very same book, the book of Acts, that Paul rebuked Peter? I think it was?

 

[Mitspa]

No,No,No we have become so politically correct, that the Bible and being educated in the original language is not politically correct.

Yes! but if you do study and learn and teach the truth, you will be attacked. If you do not study and learn, you will be deceived! I think I had rather be attacked as deceived.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

My understanding of the NT leads me to believe (contrary to the majority) you are correct concerning the "gifts''. The "perfect", I understand arrived with the completion of the NT.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

i. The Greek word for perfect is telos. Considering the way the New Testament uses telos in other passages, it certainly seems to be speaking about the coming of Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:8; 15:24; James 5:11; Revelation 20:5, 7; 21:6; 22:13).

Telios or variations of it ("It is finished!" = to telestai, which also means "paid in full" appear over 50 times in the New Testament and not all refer to Jesus, or to words spoken by Jesus.

d. Many who believe the miraculous gifts ended with the apostles (such as John MacArthur) claim since the verb will cease is not in the passive, but in the middle voice, it could be translated, tongues will stop by themselves. Their analysis sounds scholarly, but is disregarded by virtually all Greek scholars.

Hardly. The opinions are split virtually down the middle. Also, it is a neuter middle verb. Jesus cannot possible by described with a neuter middle verb. All verbs modifying the proper and personal pronouns of Jesus are masculine. This passage is not talking about Jesus. With that, I'm not going to go over this ground again. It is a lost cause where the gifts are concerned. People who believe the gifts are active will find any excuse to continue in that belief.

Yes, you have "visited this issue" or, at minimum, your thoughts about it upon this forum multiple times. How come, do you suppose, others do not see your "proofs" to be as clear and convincing as you do? Could it be because they, unlike you, do not consider "knowledge" to have passed away (as foretold in 1Cor 13:9) or have doubts about the allegation that the "cannon of Scripture" is what is being referenced in 1Cor 13:10? Could it be that they are awaiting the 'maturity' (or perfection) of the people of God themselves?

If that be the case, then they also believe that there is further revelation to come, extrabiblically, which (strictly in my opinion) is ludicrous. God has given us everything we need in the canon of Scripture we have.

Or is it rather a matter of which standard of evidence is being used. It appears that you have attempted to bring evidence that is beyond all reasonable doubt, and that your thought is that such evidence simply can not be assailed. But have you given due diligence to the idea that in the view of at least some, you've failed to even give a mere preponderance of evidence and have yet been unable or unwilling to sufficiently discharge the duty that all allegations gain at the time of assertion. No allegation should stand on its own. Simply stated, the very reluctance that you perceive in other Members of His Body to accept what is being said argues against the notion that clear and convincing evidence has been presented. Saying such things again (without further scriptural support) does not a doctrine make, a dogma, perhaps, but not a doctrine.

I understand that many do not see it as clear and convincing as I do. That's not my problem. They are free to believe as they choose. That belief, however, must be held in spite of what many consider overwhelming evidence, such as the fact of the verb tense and voice as I've mentioned above. Those who continue to believe the gifts are active never can overcome that fact, and rather choose to ignore it or rail against the reasoning without ever really overcoming the point or disproving the reasoning.

 

[Guest]

Hello urk,

Can I ask a couple questions?

Do you believe that you had to touch the lady? Do you think just your prayer was enough?

Did you witness Christ and salvation to this Lady?

That's the thing though, I didn't pray. No, it wasn't forced like I was aware of a higher power or anything. It was simply compassion in my heart for this girl that was hurt. I simply wanted her to heal. She was laying on the floor for a minute or so before i touched her because i didn't know what to do, so i went ahead and touched her back gently, and I said, 'are you ok, do you need help?'..in a calm voice. All of a sudden she got up! slowly, but she got up. I didn't think anything of it, just that she is getting up and is feeling better. Maybe it was simply the faith in me, maybe it was God showing me that I have a spiritual gift. I don't know. I asked her how she felt, she said ok just a little embarrassed and she laughed. No, I didn't tell her about Jesus, foolish foolish of me. I am however teaching the gospel to three other ladies at work. I've grown up a little bit, and I'm more in tune with my will and spreading the good news.

At that time I was still learning and I was young in my faith. I had no idea that it could of been the power of the Holy Spirit until I met this new co-worker maybe a year later. This new co-worker, i feel is also blessed with the Holy Spirit. She is a blessing, we always go back and forth through scripture and bless each other. It's awesome, but recently she's been working day shift and we haven't talked for close to a month now. It is without a doubt a 100% about his glory and his love. It's all about him! Praise him! Blessings.

Also, ty Mitspa. I will look into Andrew Womack.

 

[lowrab777]

yea you guys really should argue with each other privately or post some more edifying comments

 

[Mitspa]

Telios or variations of it ("It is finished!" = to telestai, which also means "paid in full" appear over 50 times in the New Testament and not all refer to Jesus, or to words spoken by Jesus.

Hardly. The opinions are split virtually down the middle. Also, it is a neuter middle verb. Jesus cannot possible by described with a neuter middle verb. All verbs modifying the proper and personal pronouns of Jesus are masculine. This passage is not talking about Jesus. With that, I'm not going to go over this ground again. It is a lost cause where the gifts are concerned. People who believe the gifts are active will find any excuse to continue in that belief.

If that be the case, then they also believe that there is further revelation to come, extrabiblically, which (strictly in my opinion) is ludicrous. God has given us everything we need in the canon of Scripture we have.

I understand that many do not see it as clear and convincing as I do. That's not my problem. They are free to believe as they choose. That belief, however, must be held in spite of what many consider overwhelming evidence, such as the fact of the verb tense and voice as I've mentioned above. Those who continue to believe the gifts are active never can overcome that fact, and rather choose to ignore it or rail against the reasoning without ever really overcoming the point or disproving the reasoning.

well Did you read, Debs post on Thayer and he is the best!

Also at the end of all this nonsense about the cannon, one has a doctrine that basically says the bible is true until one has the bible. That is just insane to me. Or we have a group of Spirit baptised believers who go into a meeting to decide cannon and all of a sudden they come out of this meeting and no longer have these Holy Spirit gifts, that just has no truth to it at all!

 

[reba]

yea you guys really should argue with each other privately or post some more edifying comments

My HERO!

 

[Mitspa]

http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5046&t=KJV

we see that "teleios" is an adjective - describing a person, place, or thing

Thayer Lexicon says that in this instance in 1 Corinthians 13:10 "the perfect state of all things to be ushered in by the return of Christ"

So here we have one of the most, if not the most respected teachers of the Greek, who says that you guys are wrong! Now millions upon millions of honest Christian people testify to the truth of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I also pray in tongues every day as much as I can. Now you guys can believe that the bible is true until you get the bible if you want? But you are in error.

 

[Sparkey]

yea you guys really should argue with each other privately or post some more edifying comments

My HERO!

Yes, the sound of wisdom rings true, yet this is a debate forum...

I must admit, I knee-jerk reacted to what I heard as an invitation:
"I've visited this issue over and over again"...

 

[Guest]

Here you are urk! Have not seen you in the battle last few days? The bible is very clear on this issue, and all true Born-again Christians have this right and power. Now it works in different ways and some have special gifts. But in general all believers should be laying hands and praying for those who are sick. trust the Word and pray the prayer of faith, you will see the power begin to work if you do not give up.

I would suggest you first begin to pray for things in your own body.

This is powerful message. Blessings.