Christians Placing Hands on People - Healing

[lowrab777]

URK sometimes I think that God is looking for that small surprize nugget of faith in a believer that when given the oportunity we might be able to entertain angels unaware. I have recognized this to be true on several occasions in my life all most as if we accidently have the opportunity help some one and he just wants to see us perform undistracted kind of like a test. The compassion you had for your coworker may have aced a test was giving you. Thats the way I can find Gods actions in that situation if i were to look for Him in my every day life he was there as a witness to see how you act when some is in need of something he gave you an opportunity and you acted I can only imagine that your actions where pleasing to god keep it up man and go ahead and touch the next person you see that needs help with the same compassion and god will honour your actions Heb 13:2

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4383&t=KJV

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

This was a deciding verse for me. but then what? Face to face. The link above is once again to the Strong's and Thayer. Looking down through Thayer to how this word is used in this verse, I see the Gk and their reference as the face of God ie. discern perfectly His nature, will, and purposes.

Even the disciples did not always know the perfect will of God or they would not have held the counsel in Jerusalem.

well Did you read, Debs post on Thayer and he is the best!

Also at the end of all this nonsense about the cannon, one has a doctrine that basically says the bible is true until one has the bible. That is just insane to me. Or we have a group of Spirit baptised believers who go into a meeting to decide cannon and all of a sudden they come out of this meeting and no longer have these Holy Spirit gifts, that just has no truth to it at all!

I agree, that on its face (pun intended) the Greek prosopon would appear to support a face to face meeting with Christ. However, in this use of the word, the context -- particularly in light of the fact that you cannot escape the neuter middle voice of the verb telios -- indicates having an inanimate object before one's face, in this case, the word of God in written form.

There is ample evidence for this usage.

Matthew 16 NASB
3 "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?"
​

The word "appearance" in this verse is prosopon. Does the sky have a face? Or the earth?

Acts 17
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
​

It is translated "face" 41 times in the New Testament, with 35 of those being used in reference to the human face. But overall, it is used 65 times throughout the New Testament, 16 of those times being translated as "presence" with eight of those being the "presence" before inanimate objects. When the word prosopon is used, it is not an automatically indicative of a human face, and in 1 Corinthians 13:12, it is not used as a "face to face" meeting with Christ, since Christ is not referenced in v. 10, given -- as stated above -- that He cannot be referenced by a neuter middle voice verb, as is the case with telios.

 

[Mitspa]

I agree, that on its face (pun intended) the Greek prosopon would appear to support a face to face meeting with Christ. However, in this use of the word, the context -- particularly in light of the fact that you cannot escape the neuter middle voice of the verb telios -- indicates having an inanimate object before one's face, in this case, the word of God in written form.

There is ample evidence for this usage.

Matthew 16 NASB
3 "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?"
​

The word "appearance" in this verse is prosopon. Does the sky have a face? Or the earth?

Acts 17
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
​

It is translated "face" 41 times in the New Testament, with 35 of those being used in reference to the human face. But overall, it is used 65 times throughout the New Testament, 16 of those times being translated as "presence" with eight of those being the "presence" before inanimate objects. When the word prosopon is used, it is not an automatically indicative of a human face, and in 1 Corinthians 13:12, it is not used as a "face to face" meeting with Christ, since Christ is not referenced in v. 10, given -- as stated above -- that He cannot be referenced by a neuter middle voice verb, as is the case with telios.

Good morning number!
I think Thayer would have considered these things and he comes to a very different conclusion.
Now in my own understanding of the Greek, the term "face to face" is not to be compared with those you have quoted.

And again it would seem that if one was to make the cannon the perfect item? That would mean that the bible is true until you get the bible. Then folks can change the Holy Spirit, and even put him in a can, and sling it around with some smoke.

No the Holy Spirit I have, is the one first delivered unto the saints in Acts 2. No man will be putting Him in a can, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

So if mans religion needed to get the Holy Spirit out of the way? He would come up with a doctrine that says the Holy Spirit has changed.

 

[Deborah13]

I agree, that on its face (pun intended) the Greek prosopon would appear to support a face to face meeting with Christ. However, in this use of the word, the context -- particularly in light of the fact that you cannot escape the neuter middle voice of the verb telios -- indicates having an inanimate object before one's face, in this case, the word of God in written form.

There is ample evidence for this usage.

Matthew 16 NASB
3 "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?"
​

The word "appearance" in this verse is prosopon. Does the sky have a face? Or the earth?

Acts 17
26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
​

It is translated "face" 41 times in the New Testament, with 35 of those being used in reference to the human face. But overall, it is used 65 times throughout the New Testament, 16 of those times being translated as "presence" with eight of those being the "presence" before inanimate objects. When the word prosopon is used, it is not an automatically indicative of a human face, and in 1 Corinthians 13:12, it is not used as a "face to face" meeting with Christ, since Christ is not referenced in v. 10, given -- as stated above -- that He cannot be referenced by a neuter middle voice verb, as is the case with telios.

LOL (pun) I agree this is not a face to face physical but I see it more as to thayer's definition "the face of God ie. discern perfectly His nature, will, and purposes." which I find to be more of a description of the next phrase of "known even as we are known".

Much like we might say "I was face to face with the facts in the findings in this case" which gave me "knowledge that I did not have before".

 

[farouk]

Deborah:

Then of course there is the hymn (we don't need to get our theology from hymns, of course) :

'And soon the happy day shall come
When we shall reach our destined home,
And see Him face to face,
Then with our Savior, Lord and Friend,
The one unbroken day we'll spend
In singing still His grace.'

Blessings.

 

[Sparkey]

I'm a little lost here, pardon me - maybe it was the "pun" that derailed my thinking? Does you want me to believe that I see God "face to face" when I is reading the bible? And from there conclude that "that which is perfect" is come?

Thanks in advance for the simple yes or no reply.

I am so seriously considering going to Barnes and Nobel right now, so that I might quote one of my favorite illuminations of the Word of God. It might take a couple hours before they open, I'm on the Left coast. Less than 1 hour before they open (tic, tic, tic... my clock is running an hour fast, but so is the store clock... "Open, open, open")

 

[Deborah13]

Good morning number!
No the Holy Spirit I have, is the one first delivered unto the saints in Acts 2. No man will be putting Him in a can, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

So if mans religion needed to get the Holy Spirit out of the way? He would come up with a doctrine that says the Holy Spirit has changed.

As the Holy Spirit was active in the OT and in the NT, before and after Acts, I had to ask myself why would He change and no longer manifest Himself. I couldn't come up with a good answer to that.
As man gained more knowledge in medicine, both in physical and mental health, and other sciences... As there was more splitting of the churches into more denominations and doctrines..
So is it that the Holy Spirit changed or is it that man and the world has changed and we fail to allow the Holy Spirit to manifest as He once did. We know God very seldom forces Himself on a person.
I don't see much freedom in the doctrines of men. But I would dare to say that most of the mature Christians on this forum have not relied on the teachings they received in their chosen denomination and have sincerely prayed and ask the Holy Spirit to show them personally.
So why the Holy Spirit would manifest Himself differently in different lives may be just the different situations one finds oneself in. It might be very difficult for the organized church to have the Holy Spirit just show up, manifested in a glory cloud that when He past over the priests could not stand (that would mean all the people in the church now a days). Sheesh, the whole service schedule may get messed up and then there's lunch and the ball game, the visit to Grandma's.
I'm not saying that the old church fathers deliberately taught false doctrine, not in the past and not now. Heaven forbid. Not at all. Just that it seems like so many other things with the Holy Spirit and God's grace that it may be a matter of expectancy and hope.

Then again what do I know, just the musings of one who wonders why.

 

[JCitoL]

i remember one pastor who healed sick people, and many of the healed brought a full documentation of medical tests, many of them were healed from cancer diseases including one girl who i knew - she had a cyst and was in a hospital and i went there to visit her, and she showed me the documentation of her medical tests and i saw with my own eyes the medical specialist's report and the x-ray pictures that she really has a cyst, then she told me that there is some pastor in whose ministry has a great power and asked me to escort her there and i agreed, then we went there and they prayed for her in the name of Jesus, after few days she came with the new medical specialist's report to tell me that she is completely healed by the prayer(s) of the pastor and his prayer group and i saw the medical tests/x-ray/documentation with my own eyes that there was no more a cyst

Blessings

 

[Mitspa]

i remember one pastor who healed sick people, and many of the healed brought a full documentation of medical tests, many of them were healed from cancer diseases including one girl who i knew - she had a cyst and was in a hospital and i went there to visit her, and she showed me the documentation of her medical tests and i saw with my own eyes the medical specialist's report and the x-ray pictures that she really has a cyst, then she told me that there is some pastor in whose ministry has a great power and asked me to escort her there and i agreed, then we went there and they prayed for her in the name of Jesus, after few days she came with the new medical specialist's report to tell me that she is completely healed by the prayer(s) of the pastor and his prayer group and i saw the medical tests/x-ray/documentation with my own eyes that there was no more a cyst

Blessings

These things are all in the scriptures and very clear terms! Healing is the childrens bread, Christ has suffered that we might be made whole.

Now I agree that one should use caution in many of these things. For many false spirits are in the world and can manifest and copy the works of God. But we do not reject the true because others work to deceive. We trust the Word of God and we judge all things! I know that there is a false charismatic movement! Look at the source and the doctrines of this false movement and one can protect themselves and others.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

That would mean that the bible is true until you get the bible. Then folks can change the Holy Spirit, and even put him in a can, and sling it around with some smoke.

No one can change the Holy Spirit. They can hear Him incorrectly or they can interpret by themselves and claim it is the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is unchangeable. Misinterpretation is on the misinterpreter.

No the Holy Spirit I have, is the one first delivered unto the saints in Acts 2. No man will be putting Him in a can, and He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

He is also subject to Jesus Christ, who is the Living Word.

So if mans religion needed to get the Holy Spirit out of the way? He would come up with a doctrine that says the Holy Spirit has changed.

The Holy Spirit doesn't change, and this doctrine doesn't change Him. God, the Three-in-One, is the same yesterday, today and forever, but His ways do change, as part of His plan. The plan for the signs and wonders gifts was to confirm it was God speaking through His ambassadors. When the canon was closed and the hundreds of thousands of change lives could be pointed to as evidence of His work, the signs and wonder were no longer needed, and are not needed today. That is what Christ meant when He said, " ... greater works than these he will do ... " (Luke 14:12). Not that anyone other than the apostles would do greater works than His, and in fact, they didn't, but only in small measure equal to His. But that those coming after the apostles would do the "greater works" of witnessing without the gifts of signs and miracles and still lead people to Christ.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

LOL (pun) I agree this is not a face to face physical but I see it more as to thayer's definition "the face of God ie. discern perfectly His nature, will, and purposes." which I find to be more of a description of the next phrase of "known even as we are known".

Much like we might say "I was face to face with the facts in the findings in this case" which gave me "knowledge that I did not have before".

That's a good explanation as well, Deb. I'll have to look into that.

 

[Mitspa]

No one can change the Holy Spirit. They can hear Him incorrectly or they can interpret by themselves and claim it is the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is unchangeable. Misinterpretation is on the misinterpreter.

He is also subject to Jesus Christ, who is the Living Word.

The Holy Spirit doesn't change, and this doctrine doesn't change Him. God, the Three-in-One, is the same yesterday, today and forever, but His ways do change, as part of His plan. The plan for the signs and wonders gifts was to confirm it was God speaking through His ambassadors. When the canon was closed and the hundreds of thousands of change lives could be pointed to as evidence of His work, the signs and wonder were no longer needed, and are not needed today. That is what Christ meant when He said, " ... greater works than these he will do ... " (Luke 14:12). Not that anyone other than the apostles would do greater works than His, and in fact, they didn't, but only in small measure equal to His. But that those coming after the apostles would do the "greater works" of witnessing without the gifts of signs and miracles and still lead people to Christ.

Well I am sorry my friend, that is a tradition of man and only by the most complex tinkering of the Greek can anyone cast any doubt upon the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Which in effect makes a doctrine that one must believe that after one has the bible a big portion of that bible is no longer true or needed. I reject that logic in the strongest terms.

Also does it not change the Holy Spirit from the one descibed in scripture to a different spirit? I believe it is clear it does! And reject that also.

Now what I am not saying is that one needs the baptism of the Holy Spirit to be saved or for one to flow with the grace of God. I believe that some receive an great outpouring of the Holy Spirit and others seems to kinda move into the things of the Spirit with more caution. I have heard of men who are mighty in the Lord who did not have what some call the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I hold these men in very high regard and learn much from their teachings and grow strong from their faith.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Well I am sorry my friend, that is a tradition of man and only by the most complex tinkering of the Greek can anyone cast any doubt upon the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then, Mit, and I appreciate the appellation "friend" as I feel the same toward you, though we did at one time get off to a rough start. I don't believe it a manipulation of the Greek, but a plain reading of it. Thanks for the discussion, though, and the Lord Jesus' blessing upon you and your family.

Also does it not change the Holy Spirit from the one descibed in scripture to a different spirit? I believe it is clear it does! And reject that also.

No, I don't believe it forces a non-existent change on Him, I believe God changes the way He deals with us as we grow and mature, and I believe that applied to the early church and its maturity toward "meat" as opposed to "milk."

Now what I am not saying is that one needs the baptism of the Holy Spirit to be saved or for one to flow with the grace of God. I believe that some receive an great outpouring of the Holy Spirit and others seems to kinda move into the things of the Spirit with more caution. I have heard of men who are mighty in the Lord who did not have what some call the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I hold these men in very high regard and learn much from their teachings and grow strong from their faith.

There is solid basis for that belief, and it gives me the opportunity to say I am not standing in concrete on the teaching of the gifts. I have this belief based on my reading and understanding, as well as my observation. I do believe that, in crisis or necessity, God can imbue anyone with any of the gifts to reach a lost soul and witness to someone in immediate need of ministry. So I guess I would have to admit that is not a solid stance on the idea that the gifts have passed out of use or value. When needed, they can be gifted by the Holy Spirit, from the Father, to accomplish God's purpose. I just don't believe they are as plentiful or needful as they are presented by the many churches who practice their use, and are extremely rare in their appearance.

 

[Sparkey]

... So I guess I would have to admit that is not a solid stance on the idea that the gifts have passed out of use or value. When needed, they can be gifted by the Holy Spirit, from the Father, to accomplish God's purpose. I just don't believe they are as plentiful or needful as they are presented by the many churches who practice their use, and are extremely rare in their appearance.

Why is that, do you suppose?

 

[Mitspa]

So we both can come to a place of agreement without trying to "unsave" each other? lol how wonderful!
Like I said there is a false charismatic movement, that comes from the old serpent. God has just started teaching me how to discern it, but it always goes back to the issue of false doctrine. I do not have any regard for most TV preachers or anyone who attempts to make money from the Holy Spirit and the gifts. I would say we are in more agreement than we know on some of these things? But the real is very real, and it so fills us with the Love of God, that one has no problem understanding why so many would lay down their lives, rather than to deny Gods love.

 

[Deborah13]

When needed, they can be gifted by the Holy Spirit, from the Father, to accomplish God's purpose. I just don't believe they are as plentiful or needful as they are presented by the many churches who practice their use, and are extremely rare in their appearance.

I would not presume to know how much and need but I can tell you this, I have seen things not in a church I attended but on video, that I was embarassed at the behaviors I saw. They did not sit well in my spirit at all. Paul was very firm as to order in the church in the administration and manifestation of the Holy Spirit gifts. In any thing people can be abusive (not speaking physically). For example, in the OT the priest would be so overcome by the Spirit that they could not stand, I believe this happens today. However, I have seen people being almost forced to fall and frankly if they are overcome to a certain point it may not be so much as to fall but it seems that some are not content to just let the Holy Spirit work in that person the way He chooses even if they are resisting, let the Holy Spirit do the overcoming or not. I have seen pride that is unjustified and truly Holy Spirit blessed ministries put to shame by greed.
Frankly it's no wonder some don't even want to consider the possibilities when they see such abuses.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Why is that, do you suppose?

Again, I believe it is because our own witness, our own testimony, our own love for Christ demonstrated by our care, love, and service to others -- our changed hearts and lives -- are the "greater works than these" we do to the glory of God. Such a heart and attitude does not need signs and wonders to prove the message, and the messenger, are from God, because it is obvious by Whom they are motivated.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I would not presume to know how much and need but I can tell you this, I have seen things not in a church I attended but on video, that I was embarassed at the behaviors I saw. They did not sit well in my spirit at all. Paul was very firm as to order in the church in the administration and manifestation of the Holy Spirit gifts. In any thing people can be abusive (not speaking physically). For example, in the OT the priest would be so overcome by the Spirit that they could not stand, I believe this happens today. However, I have seen people being almost forced to fall and frankly if they are overcome to a certain point it may not be so much as to fall but it seems that some are not content to just let the Holy Spirit work in that person the way He chooses even if they are resisting, let the Holy Spirit do the overcoming or not. I have seen pride that is unjustified and truly Holy Spirit blessed ministries put to shame by greed.
Frankly it's no wonder some don't even want to consider the possibilities when they see such abuses.

I agree completely. The way the "gifts" are practiced in these churches is reprehensible, and they pay no heed to Paul's warning about a proper order being necessary in the church. I don't believe there is a need for the "gifts" in a church setting. Most are speaking the same language, most are there to seek Christ. My belief about where the need would arise is in the mission field, when a a messenger sent by God to those who need to hear the gospel, who have no sufficient background in Scriptures, to comprehend the message given. Then, perhaps in rare cases, God would ordain some sign to be given. I must emphasize "rare." I doubt this kind of miraculous work has been necessary even a half dozen times in the last decade, worldwide. I doubt they have been necessary a hundred times in the last century. That is how rare I would expect these events to be.

The practice of the signs and wonders in the church, in this day and age, is mostly unbiblical and completely unnecessary.

 

[Sparkey]

So you are of the opinion that, "they [the Gifts of the Holy Spirit] are [not] as plentiful or needful as they are presented by the many churches who practice their use, and [the Gifts] are extremely rare in their appearance," because you believe, "it is because our own witness, our own testimony, our own love for Christ demonstrated by our care, love, and service to others -- our changed hearts and lives -- [that are] are the "greater works than these" [that] we do to the glory of God. Such a heart and attitude does not need signs and wonders to prove the message, and the messenger, are from God, because it is obvious by Whom they are motivated."

Believing that would not allow you to see the various Gifts of the Holy Spirit and Spiritual [matters] that Paul spoke of as Gifts to the Whole Church, but instead, that they are given to Church Builders, sent by God and called Apostles of the Lamb for the most part. Is that a fair assessment?

Mitspa had said, "I believe that some receive an great outpouring of the Holy Spirit and others seems to kinda move into the things of the Spirit with more caution. I have heard of men who are mighty in the Lord who did not have what some call the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I hold these men in very high regard and learn much from their teachings and grow strong from their faith." Will you expand on the meaning of your words, "There is solid basis for that belief, and it gives me the opportunity to say I am not standing in concrete on the teaching of the gifts," spoken in reply to Mitspa, please?

I am especially interested to know your views regarding the current actions of the Holy Spirit in the Church. And what Paul did not want others to be ignorant of in light of your statements today.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I am surprised that people spend so much effort tearing down a large chunk of christianity without offering an alternative that's worth listening to.

If I were to listen to them, I would think they'd be proud to tell me how something else is better.

So far I've heard nothing.