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Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?

Lewis said:
We have argued about this every since I have been here. If some men came into my house to rape and harm my family I will shoot you to death if I have to. Some years back we had a guy in this board who, well he still comes here from time to time. But anyway he said he would try to reason with the intruders. So I said even though he is going rape your wife and daughters. So I said what if he is beating your wife, and he said he would still be talking to the guy. I said what is your address so I could come and shoot you. Because you are a coward as a husband, you are not a protector. And I told him and others that God does not expect you to stand there and let somebody beat your brains out. He put a natural reaction in you and that is to fight or flee.
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Firstly your argument presumes to know why someone is entering your home. Secondly, your argument assumes you can do something about it. It amazes me that Christians just assume they're the ones who are going to be doing the shooting. Maybe the guy just wants the big screen tv, Then the Christian guy grabs his gun, the intruder blows him away leaving the family with a father and probably without a source of income all over a tv. Additionally, he is putting family in further danger by angering the intruder.

My question to you would be, who is better able to protect your family, you or God? If your answer is God, my second question is, does He need your help?
 
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jasonc said:
I posted the link about basic roman law, some of those laws today would be unfathomable. then not so much.
teen takes a grain of corn and is called the son of ceres and is offered to him(idiom meaning he is a son of the devil and treat as such) so those Christians had to hide him so that he wouldn't be killed at will. that makes them criminals. theres no record of that by the romans that I know about that said that about the Christians.
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I'm not following you. However, Christians are to obey the law of the land as long as it doesn't cause them to violate God's commands.
 
th1b.taylor said:
I'm not attacking, I'm just asking you to man up, either answer by building a biblical case or melt away, your choice. And until and if you don't, I'll not feel obliged to accommodate you either. If you hold to this position, we are at an impasse.
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I've already given several quotations showing the position of the early church.
 
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Butch5 said:
I'm not following you. However, Christians are to obey the law of the land as long as it doesn't cause them to violate God's commands.
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the laws of god allowed for a theif to die if he was caught breaking in at night. the torah also allows for death if the criminal killed another. notice when peter mentions if one is jailed for a crime its to you shame. there wasn't any Christians killing another? so the church knowing that didn't just hide them? if so that would have been clearly said.
I can see the Christians not serving in the roman legions but not to turn over common criminals for theft, and so forth isn't likely. jesus never told the jews to stop following roman laws on that or their own what was allowed under roman power.
 
when you can honestly say in the bible jesus said go and sin with that sword. then you have a case.

why would jesus tell them by swords and scrip if he didn't mean for them to need them? one doesn't use a sword to kill any wild animal. see the bear and the man with the knife who killed the bear with the knife after shooting the bear first. he was messed up even with doing all that to that bear. archery was used or spears with animals then. likely archery first.
 
jasonc said:
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the laws of god allowed for a theif to die if he was caught breaking in at night. the torah also allows for death if the criminal killed another. notice when peter mentions if one is jailed for a crime its to you shame. there wasn't any Christians killing another? so the church knowing that didn't just hide them? if so that would have been clearly said.
I can see the Christians not serving in the roman legions but not to turn over common criminals for theft, and so forth isn't likely. jesus never told the jews to stop following roman laws on that or their own what was allowed under roman power.
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The laws given to Israel were for a nation. There has to be laws or chaos will reign. However, Jesus came and gave a new law, one that was for the individual.
 
Butch5 said:
The laws given to Israel were for a nation. There has to be laws or chaos will reign. However, Jesus came and gave a new law, one that was for the individual.
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individuals that make up a nation. there has to be a law right? common sense. do we then just cease obeying laws as we are in office at works. stealing as ordered by the corporation is ok if the nation allows it ?

I should address the idea of and eye for eye and that was never literal in Hebrew. it was an idiom meaning what one judges for an injury that is worthy of that injury. an eye for eye and tooth for a tooth. sheesh. see the tablets for that cruelty. the torah wasn't like that.

http://parsha.blogspot.com/2012/05/literal-eye-for-eye.html
 
Butch5 said:
My question would to you would be who is better able to protect your family, you or God? If your answer is God, my second question is, does He need your help?
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It would be interesting how one would answer these questions about their eternal salvation.

1. Who is better able to save you, you or God?

2.If it is God, does He need your help?
 
jasonc said:
individuals that make up a nation. there has to be a law right? common sense. do we then just cease obeying laws as we are in office at works. stealing as ordered by the corporation is ok if the nation allows it ?

I should address the idea of and eye for eye and that was never literal in Hebrew. it was an idiom meaning what one judges for an injury that is worthy of that injury. an eye for eye and tooth for a tooth. sheesh. see the tablets for that cruelty. the torah wasn't like that.

http://parsha.blogspot.com/2012/05/literal-eye-for-eye.html
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No, we are to obey the laws as long as they don't violate God's law.
 
Butch5 said:
I didn't give creeds, I gave quotations from early Christian leaders who quoted the Scriptures and explained how they were understood in the Christian faith.
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I didn't see them quoting scripture in your quotes. All I saw, just like the Pharisees when Jesus was on earth, was a bunch of early Fathers creating their own laws for the Church. This is the problem with the Catholic Church, it started way back when, going above and beyond the laws God set forth for us, creating a nicolatian environment that the Lord detests.
 
Jesse said:
I didn't see them quoting scripture in your quotes. All I saw, just like the Pharisees when Jesus was on earth, was a bunch of early Fathers creating their own laws for the Church. This is the problem with the Catholic Church, it started way back when, going above and beyond the laws God set forth for us, creating a nicolatian environment that the Lord detests.
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Amen!
 
gr8grace3 said:
It would be interesting how one would answer these questions about their eternal salvation.

1. Who is better able to save you, you or God?

2.If it is God, does He need your help?
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That's were many become inconsistent. When you ask some Christians do you trust God for salvation they say yes. Of course they do, no person can give them self eternal life. However, when it comes to their physical life all of sudden they're not relying totally on God as they are for salvation. The thing is, it's not hard to say you trust God for something that you have no control over. It's another thing to trust God and not act when you can.
 
Jesse said:
I didn't see them quoting scripture in your quotes. All I saw, just like the Pharisees when Jesus was on earth, was a bunch of early Fathers creating their own laws for the Church. This is the problem with the Catholic Church, it started way back when, going above and beyond the laws God set forth for us, creating a nicolatian environment that the Lord detests.
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The quotes I gave come from the Ante-Nicene period which was before the Catholic Church existed. If you study church history you'll see that the Ante-Nicene church wouldn't use violence. You can disagree if you'd like, however, the evidence is that this was the Christian faith in the beginning.
 
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