Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?

[jasonc]

I'm not sure what you're getting at but, yes, they died if necessary. Tertullian said, 'in our religion is better to be slain than to slay'. That wasn't a personal opinion as he said, 'in our religion.'

We are but of yesterday, and we have filled every place among you—cities, islands, fortresses, towns, market-places, the very camp, tribes, companies, palace, senate, forum,—we have left nothing to you but the temples of your gods. For what wars should we not be fit, not eager, even with unequal forces, we who so willingly yield ourselves to the sword, if in our religion it were not counted better to be slain than to slay?
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

so you would allow a rapist to rape you then and also if I was being raped or another female. don't report it? some rape acts are considered to be capital offense.

ie rape where the victim is 13 or under is an automatic death sentence in my state. so enable them to do that? that makes no sense given what romans 13 says, and also what rome did with some crimes. rome put thieves to death.

 

[Jesse]

In reference to human beings.

Violence is violence, be it against whatever or whoever.

Do you have a very good reference that states the early Christians were non-violent?

 

[Butch5]

Butch, you defined this branch of the discussion and if you think anything of yourself, if you have any self respect you will not try to baffel the old fossil with manure but will furnish me with the scripture to support this "Christian" Doctrine.

Not sure what you're getting at but If the apostles writings weren't the source of Christian doctrine until sometime later when men cannonized them, what were they?

Regarding the use of violence, Tertullian said of the Christian faith,

! We are but of yesterday, and we have filled every place among you—cities, islands, fortresses, towns, market-places, the very camp, tribes, companies, palace, senate, forum,—we have left nothing to you but the temples of your gods. For what wars should we not be fit, not eager, even with unequal forces, we who so willingly yield ourselves to the sword, if in our religion it were not counted better to be slain than to slay?
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

[Butch5]

Violence is violence, be it against whatever or whoever.

Do you have a very good reference that states the early Christians were non-violent?

Yes, there are plenty, here is one.

! We are but of yesterday, and we have filled every place among you—cities, islands, fortresses, towns, market-places, the very camp, tribes, companies, palace, senate, forum,—we have left nothing to you but the temples of your gods. For what wars should we not be fit, not eager, even with unequal forces, we who so willingly yield ourselves to the sword, if in our religion it were not counted better to be slain than to slay?
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

[Butch5]

so you would allow a rapist to rape you then and also if I was being raped or another female. don't report it? some rape acts are considered to be capital offense.

ie rape where the victim is 13 or under is an automatic death sentence in my state. so enable them to do that? that makes no sense given what romans 13 says, and also what rome did with some crimes. rome put thieves to death.

We can do what if's until the cows come home. I stated that the early Christians wouldn't use violence and they wouldn't. They relied on God for their protection. I realize that that idea is not popular with many today, however, that doesn't change the way the faith was in the beginning.

 

[jasonc]

they died for refusing to go serve in the roman army. not because they abhorred violence of that nature. rome had the death penalty for some things they should. jesus never stated that the death penalty by rome was unjust fully. he didn't tell any centurion to stop being one.
did he not save the thief on the cross one of whom said he was justly being crucified?

 

[jasonc]

We can do what if's until the cows come home. I stated that the early Christians wouldn't use violence and they wouldn't. They relied on God for their protection. I realize that that idea is not popular with many today, however, that doesn't change the way the faith was in the beginning.

so what does romans 13 mean given what rome was doing then.

Law IV.
Where anyone commits a theft by night, and having been caught in the act is killed, he is legally killed.[1]

that is in the twelve tablets of the roman law, it was in effect in the days of the lord. note the similiarity to the torah on that.

http://www.constitution.org/sps/sps01_1.htm

 

[jasonc]

steal grain in those days, death!

 

[Butch5]

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 2
Clement of Alexandria

Above all, Christians are not allowed to correct with violence the
delinquencies of sins. For it is not those that abstain from wickedness
from compulsion, but those that abstain from choice, that God crowns.

 

[Butch5]

so what does romans 13 mean given what rome was doing then.


that is in the twelve tablets of the roman law, it was in effect in the days of the lord. note the similiarity to the torah on that.

http://www.constitution.org/sps/sps01_1.htm

I'm not sure what you want me to address about Romans 13. Paul said to be subject to the authorities that be because they were put there by God and were His ministers.

What about the Roman Law? The Law given by Moses was to lead a nation, the Law given by Christ was to lead His people.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Not sure what you're getting at but If the apostles writings weren't the source of Christian doctrine until sometime later when men cannonized them, what were they?

Regarding the use of violence, Tertullian said of the Christian faith,

! We are but of yesterday, and we have filled every place among you—cities, islands, fortresses, towns, market-places, the very camp, tribes, companies, palace, senate, forum,—we have left nothing to you but the temples of your gods. For what wars should we not be fit, not eager, even with unequal forces, we who so willingly yield ourselves to the sword, if in our religion it were not counted better to be slain than to slay?
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

You are answering me with trivia, not the Word of God. You are not the first that has attempted to do this to me but it will not float your boat, my friend. The Word of God is the entire Bible, divided into to parts. First the are the Books from Genesis to Malachi, the Bible, the same bible Jesus and the Church Fathers taught from. The following 27 books are the only God breathed Life Application
Commentary ever written on the Bible.

With that understanding I still contend there is no case for never protecting your wife, children, mother or country, quite the opposite. Neither I nor any man, following God lives by the Creeds, we follow God, just as King David did.

 

[Butch5]

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian 197 AD.

If we are enjoined, then, to love our enemies, as I have remarked above,
whom have we to hate? If injured, we are forbidden to retaliate, lest we
become as bad ourselves: who can suffer injury at our hands?

 

[Butch5]

You are answering me with trivia, not the Word of God. You are not the first that has attempted to do this to me but it will not float your boat, my friend. The Word of God is the entire Bible, divided into to parts. First the are the Books from Genesis to Malachi, the Bible, the same bible Jesus and the Church Fathers taught from. The following 27 books are the only God breathed Life Application
Commentary ever written on the Bible.

With that understanding I still contend there is no case for never protecting your wife, children, mother or country, quite the opposite. Neither I nor any man, following God lives by the Creeds, we follow God, just as King David did.

Well, who did Jesus harm?

 

[Lewis]

We have argued about this every since I have been here. If some men came into my house to rape and harm my family I will shoot you to death if I have to. Some years back we had a guy in this board who, well he still comes here from time to time. But anyway he said he would try to reason with the intruders. So I said even though he is going rape your wife and daughters. So I said what if he is beating your wife, and he said he would still be talking to the guy. I said what is your address so I could come and shoot you. Because you are a coward as a husband, you are not a protector. And I told him and others that God does not expect you to stand there and let somebody beat your brains out. He put a natural reaction in you and that is to fight or flee.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Well, who did Jesus harm?

Butch,
Your question is erratic nonsense. I asked you to make your case if you had one and now you're trying to play girl games and run me through ring around the rosie. If you can't make the case, man up and just say so. Studying the Bible as much as I have I already knew you were not scripturally based in your preaching. I had hoped to help you but it looks like that will never happen... so!

 

[Butch5]

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3
Tertullian

Nay, He puts His interdict on every sort of man-killing by that one
summary precept, “Thou shalt not kill.”

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4
Commodianus 240 A.D.

Many are the martyrdoms which are made without shedding of blood. Not to
desire other men’s goods; to wish to have the benefit of martyrdom; to
bridle the tongue, thou oughtest to make thyself humble; not willingly to
use force, nor to return force used against thee, thou wilt be a patient
mind, understand that thou art a martyr.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5
Cyprian 250 AD.

Consider the roads blocked up by robbers, the seas beset with pirates, wars
scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole
world is wet with mutual blood; and murder, which in the case of an
individual is admitted to be a crime, is called a virtue when it is
committed wholesale. Impunity is claimed for the wicked deeds, not
on the plea that they are guiltless, but because the cruelty is
perpetrated on a grand scale


Cyprian
and that by this very fact they are invincible, that they do not fear death;
that they do not in turn assail their assailants, since it is not lawful
for the innocent even to kill the guilty;

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 7
Lactantius 304-313 A.D.
But we, on the contrary, do not require that any one should be compelled,
whether he is willing or unwilling, to worship our God, who is the God of all
men; nor are we angry if any one does not worship Him. For we trust in the
majesty of Him who has power to avenge contempt shown towards Himself,
as also He has power to avenge the calamities and injuries inflicted
on His servants. And therefore, when we suffer such impious things, we
do not resist even in word; but we remit vengeance to God, not as they
act who would have it appear that they are defenders of their gods, and rage
without restraint against those who do not worship them

 

[th1b.taylor]

We have argued about this every since I have been here. If some men came into my house to rape and harm my family I will shoot you to death if I have to. Some years back we had a guy in this board who, well he still comes here from time to time. But anyway he said he would try to reason with the intruders. So I said even though he is going rape your wife and daughters. So I said what if he is beating your wife, and he said he would still be talking to the guy. I said what is your address so I could come and shoot you. Because you are a coward as a husband, you are not a protector. And I told him and others that God does not expect you to stand there and let somebody beat your brains out. He put a natural reaction in you and that is to fight or flee.

Amen!

 

[Butch5]

Butch,
Your question is erratic nonsense. I asked you to make your case if you had one and now you're trying to play girl games and run me through ring around the rosie. If you can't make the case, man up and just say so. Studying the Bible as much as I have I already knew you were not scripturally based in your preaching. I had hoped to help you but it looks like that will never happen... so!

Ad hominems and poisoning the well are logical fallacies. If you don't want to answer my question just say so. You said you follow Christ, well, He didn't He didn't use violence against people. I've already given several quotes from different Christian leaders through the ante Nicean period. It shows what the early Christians believed. They wouldn't use violence.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not sure what you want me to address about Romans 13. Paul said to be subject to the authorities that be because they were put there by God and were His ministers.

What about the Roman Law? The Law given by Moses was to lead a nation, the Law given by Christ was to lead His people.

I posted the link about basic roman law, some of those laws today would be unfathomable. then not so much.
teen takes a grain of corn and is called the son of ceres and is offered to him(idiom meaning he is a son of the devil and treat as such) so those Christians had to hide him so that he wouldn't be killed at will. that makes them criminals. theres no record of that by the romans that I know about that said that about the Christians.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Ad hominems and poisoning the well are logical fallacies. If you don't want to answer my question just say so. You said you follow Christ, well, He didn't He didn't use violence against people. I've already given several quotes from different Christian leaders through the ante Nicean period. It shows what the early Christians believed. They wouldn't use violence.

I'm not attacking, I'm just asking you to man up, either answer by building a biblical case or melt away, your choice. And until and if you don't, I'll not feel obliged to accommodate you either. If you hold to this position, we are at an impasse.