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Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?

FreeGrace said:
I think this thread has gone over the cliff. Over 60 posts since yesterday!! Seems the basic argument against self defense is that Jesus "never harmed anyone".

Well, let's examine what Jesus taught.

Luke 11:21 - When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

This is clear: a strong man who is armed.
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Jesus also gave the parable of the unfaithful steward, would you suggest we be unfaithful stewards to our master? Just because Jesus acknowledges that there is a strong man who is armed doesn't mean He's advocating Christian be armed. I think more to the point of the parable is, who is the strong man?

What else did Jesus talk about? Luke 22:35-38 is in the context of the Last Supper:
35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords.And he said unto them, It is enough.

OK, Jesus told His disciples to sell his garment and buy one is he has no sword. I highly doubt that Jesus was interested in simply tools for peeling figs.

Now, what do you suppose the sword was for? Matt 26:51, Mark 14:47, Luke 22:50 and John 18:10 tells us that Peter drew his weapon (sword) and cut off the ear of Malchus.

Why was Peter armed? For protection. Yes, Jesus rebuked him when the authorities came to arrest Him, but what Peter did provided more evidence that Jesus was God, when He healed Malchus' ear.

If Jesus did not intend His followers to be able to defend themselves and their families, why did He speak of a well armed man who protects his goods, or tell His disciples to sell a garment in order to buy a sword?

Those who want to just lay down in the face of attackers; be my guest. But Jesus intended no such thing.
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Actually, if you look up what the Greek word is it's actually a large knife or small sword. It's not what people typically imagine a sword to be. Secondly, Jesus told Peter not to use the sword/knife but to put it away. What did He say? He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. When Jesus sent them out the first time He sent them to their own people and said that the people would provide for them. This time He was sending them to the nations, the nations would not provide for them, they would have to provide for themselves. So, they would need a knife/sword for different things including preparing food.

People post this passage in support of self defense and yet When Peter did that very thing Jesus rebuked him. The passage seems to be a passage in support of non violence.
 
Butch5 said:
Firstly your argument presumes to know why someone is entering your home. Secondly, your argument assumes you can do something about it. It amazes me that Christians just assume they're the ones who are going to be doing the shooting. Maybe the guy just wants the big screen tv, Then the Christian guy grabs his gun, the intruder blows him away leaving the family with a father and probably without a source of income all over a tv. Additionally, he is putting family in further danger by angering the intruder.

My question to you would be, who is better able to protect your family, you or God? If your answer is God, my second question is, does He need your help?
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Paleeeeeez give me a break
 
The ONLY scripture people have to justify how they think is the buy 2 swords scripture, and he says "reaching fulfillment"..........so that leads me to believe he HAD to say it for fulfillment purposes.
He also said do not murder Matthew 5:21.....but he took if further Matthew 5:22 Saying anything with contempt to anyone is in danger of hellfire

Everything he commands his followers to do is uncomfortable for our flesh, cause our sin nature wants to protect our flesh.

As I mentioned before, Allah is not our God. We do not have the right to take justice into "our" hand.

Romans 12:19-21 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If you enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
 
Gary said:
I own a gun but it's not for protection.

Is that wrong?
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I am originally from Montana and grew up with my dad hunting, but "I" still wouldn't want to own a gun. But, my husband's dad is a gun collector and has SO many guns and he is going to give them to my husband when he dies. We will have guns. But "I" don't want them.
 
LovethroughDove said:
I am originally from Montana and grew up with my dad hunting, but "I" still wouldn't want to own a gun. But, my husband's dad is a gun collector and has SO many guns and he is going to give them to my husband when he dies. We will have guns. But "I" don't want them.
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But is owning a gun wrong?
.
 
Butch5 said: ↑
Bill, If you're not interested in investing the time to read a few pages that I wrote on this, why would you expect me to devote the time it takes to write these posts that will likely simply be rejected. It takes quite a bit of time to put together the information necessary to make the case. I've spent hours gathering information and writing posts only to have others say, that's just your opinion, or something similar and never address the information. I've already compiled the information from both the Bible and the Early church and written the paper. If you're not interested in reading that why would I expect you to be willing to read it here?
And Bill says;
My argument was that the early church wouldn't use violence and I've already shown that from their writings. Since this was a unanimous teaching in the early church one has to wonder where they got this idea.
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This is a public forum where, you and I know Baby Christians and Little People will read this subject and I, at least, know that, because the Computer and Texting have ruined the reading skills of the Worlds Population, they will not read a couple of pages of text without becoming bored.

You appear to be aware that you are guilty of Teaching and as such, you will, thus, be judged, just as, will, I. I have made it clear that your position is not scriptural and you have refused to defend it and now you are telling me that you are to lazy to copy and paste?

If you believe this nonsense, defend it or every baby Christian that stumbles over this trash will know that you could not. Defend and we will discuss.

And don't accuse me of stupidity because you refuse to make your case in short, Computer Literate, posts. I am not attacking you, I want you to converse and I want you to use the Word of God to make the case, not, after thought, creeds. The creeds were on my e-Sword Program for a long time because they are excellent study for the history of the Church, they are not, however, the Word of God.
 
Butch5 said:
Jesus told Peter not to use the sword/knife but to put it away. What did He say? He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword. When Jesus sent them out the first time He sent them to their own people and said that the people would provide for them. This time He was sending them to the nations, the nations would not provide for them, they would have to provide for themselves. So, they would need a knife/sword for different things including preparing food.

People post this passage in support of self defense and yet When Peter did that very thing Jesus rebuked him. The passage seems to be a passage in support of non violence.
Click to expand...
I don't want to get in the middle of this but a thought occurred to me. I wonder if the reason Jesus told the person to sheath his sword is important to this question?

Matthew 26: NKJV
51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

Mark 14: NKJV
46 Then they laid their hands on Him and took Him.
47 And one of those who stood by drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
48 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me?
49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

John 18: NKJV
10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.
11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?”
 
LovethroughDove said:
The ONLY scripture people have to justify how they think is the buy 2 swords scripture, and he says "reaching fulfillment"..........so that leads me to believe he HAD to say it for fulfillment purposes.
He also said do not murder Matthew 5:21.....but he took if further Matthew 5:22 Saying anything with contempt to anyone is in danger of hellfire

Everything he commands his followers to do is uncomfortable for our flesh, cause our sin nature wants to protect our flesh.

As I mentioned before, Allah is not our God. We do not have the right to take justice into "our" hand.

Romans 12:19-21 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If you enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Click to expand...
LtD,
Surely, you know that is not true. The entire Bible Jesus taught from is laced with men called to defend their family and country. King David is my preferred reference but on the web or in person, it is, always, safe to assume one is dealing with a modern day New Testament/New Covenant say so Christian. For that reason, alone, I offer the New Testament (the Commentary) passage.
 
WIP said:
I don't want to get in the middle of this but a thought occurred to me. I wonder if the reason Jesus told the person to sheath his sword is important to this question?

Matthew 26: NKJV
51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

Mark 14: NKJV
46 Then they laid their hands on Him and took Him.
47 And one of those who stood by drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
48 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me?
49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

John 18: NKJV
10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.
11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?”
Click to expand...
That is part of it, but it doesn't fit all the text.

"Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

"For" is an explanatory conjunction, and the proceeding clause gives the explanation for the preceding clause.

Statement: Put your sword in it's place.
Reason: All who take up the sword will perish by the sword.
 
WIP said:
I don't want to get in the middle of this but a thought occurred to me. I wonder if the reason Jesus told the person to sheath his sword is important to this question?

Matthew 26: NKJV
51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”

Mark 14: NKJV
46 Then they laid their hands on Him and took Him.
47 And one of those who stood by drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
48 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me?
49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled.”

John 18: NKJV
10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.
11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?”
Click to expand...
WIP,
Please, dive in.
 
Butch5 said:
Jesus also gave the parable of the unfaithful steward, would you suggest we be unfaithful stewards to our master?
Click to expand...
Of course not. But what does this have to do with self defense??

Just because Jesus acknowledges that there is a strong man who is armed doesn't mean He's advocating Christian be armed.
Click to expand...
Why not? Seems you're looking through pacifist lens. And He told His disciples to sell a garment to buy a sword. Why do you ignore that?

I think more to the point of the parable is, who is the strong man?
Click to expand...
No, the point is that Jesus acknowledged that an armed man CAN defend his possessions.

Actually, if you look up what the Greek word is it's actually a large knife or small sword. It's not what people typically imagine a sword to be.
Click to expand...
Actually, the word is "machira", which was THE most effective fighting weapon at that time. That is the type of sword that the Roman soldiers carried. It was double edged for superior handling and because it WAS shorter and lighter than the typical swords of the time, it was MORE deadly than the larger ones.

So your point is not taken.

Secondly, Jesus told Peter not to use the sword/knife but to put it away.
Click to expand...
Are you actually trying to show that Jesus was contradictory?? He TOLD them to sell a garment to buy a sword. Duh.

The reason He told Peter to put it away was that his timing was wrong.

What did He say? He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword.
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Totally out of context.

When Jesus sent them out the first time He sent them to their own people and said that the people would provide for them. This time He was sending them to the nations, the nations would not provide for them, they would have to provide for themselves. So, they would need a knife/sword for different things including preparing food.
Click to expand...
Yep, just as I thought. A pacifist only thinks of swords for other than defense. But that is your right.

People post this passage in support of self defense and yet When Peter did that very thing Jesus rebuked him. The passage seems to be a passage in support of non violence.
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't. It wasn't time for self defense. Peter was trying to thwart God's plan.

What you can't wriggle your way out of is the FACT that Jesus told His disciples to sell a garment to buy a highly effective fighting weapon.
 
th1b.taylor said:
LtD,
Surely, you know that is not true. The entire Bible Jesus taught from is laced with men called to defend their family and country. King David is my preferred reference but on the web or in person, it is, always, safe to assume one is dealing with a modern day New Testament/New Covenant say so Christian. For that reason, alone, I offer the New Testament (the Commentary) passage.
Click to expand...

Bill - I frankly don't care what other people did before Jesus. Jesus has given us his Holy Spirit as believers.

I'm not being rude here. I just don't care.
 
LovethroughDove said:
Bill - I frankly don't care what other people did before Jesus. Jesus has given us his Holy Spirit as believers.

I'm not being rude here. I just don't care.
Click to expand...
But Jesus commanded and often fought for the people in the Old Testament. (John 1:1-3) Jesus taught from the Old Testament.
 
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