Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?

[gr8grace3]

Of course they do, no person can give them self eternal life. However, when it comes to their physical life all of sudden they're not relying totally on God as they are for salvation.

Do you believe you can lose your eternal life. Are you relying totally on God for your salvation? Or can you lose it?

 

[Jesse]

Do you believe you can lose your eternal life. Are you relying totally on God for your salvation? Or can you lose it?

Isn't there a thread already on this?

This is about Christians defending themselves and loved ones when their life is threatened.

 

[th1b.taylor]

If you want a Biblical case read the paper.

Make your case and do not treat me as if I were a child. You keep falling back to the creeds and the creeds and what the early Church Fathers did or didn't do has nothing to do with the Living Word of God, the creeds are things men decided in meetings and are not canonized. Just make your case.

 

[gr8grace3]

Isn't there a thread already on this?

This is about Christians defending themselves and loved ones when their life is threatened.

Yes, and we are being admonished not to protect our things,lives,family members because we don't trust God totally, [Edited violation of ToS 2.4, WIP] Do you not see?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yes, and we are being admonished not to protect our things,lives,family members because we don't trust God totally, by a person who does not trust God totally for their salvation and eternal life. Do you not see?

I looked and it says this is a man so I just want him to give me the non-existing scriptures or admit there are none.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I am thoroughly convinced we are the remnant. (those of us who walk as Jesus did) He doesn't/didn't pick up a weapon to "defend" himself or others in any situation. If you are born of the Spirit, the flesh is a temporary thing and you know it. We are to love our enemies and someone who hates you and wants to kill you, probably would be considered an enemy?

 

[gr8grace3]

I am thoroughly convinced we are the remnant. (those of us who walk as Jesus did) He doesn't/didn't pick up a weapon to "defend" himself or others in any situation. If you are born of the Spirit, the flesh is a temporary thing and you know it. We are to love our enemies and someone who hates you and wants to kill you, probably would be considered an enemy?

Rev 17:14~~New American Standard Bible
"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

 

[LovethroughDove]

Rev 17:14~~New American Standard Bible
"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

He overcomes them, because Spirit conquers the flesh. Flesh is temporary, Spirit is eternal.

 

[gr8grace3]

I looked and it says this is a man so I just want him to give me the non-existing scriptures or admit there are none.

Frustrating?

A loss of salvation person admonishes us not to protect our family because an unbeliever is breaking the commandments.

Turns around and tosses a believer in the LoF forever and ever for breaking the commandments.

 

[gr8grace3]

He overcomes them, because Spirit conquers the flesh. Flesh is temporary, Spirit is eternal.

So the Lamb does what to overcome them?

 

[LovethroughDove]

So the Lamb does what to overcome them?

Born of Spirit?

 

[gr8grace3]

Born of Spirit?

So you believe He saves them, the ones who made war against Him?

 

[LovethroughDove]

So you believe He saves them, the ones who made war against Him?

No. The scripture you posted was the end-time event where Jesus puts an end to it, but it isn't in his flesh. We are to be as he was walking on earth.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I am thoroughly convinced we are the remnant. (those of us who walk as Jesus did) He doesn't/didn't pick up a weapon to "defend" himself or others in any situation. If you are born of the Spirit, the flesh is a temporary thing and you know it. We are to love our enemies and someone who hates you and wants to kill you, probably would be considered an enemy?

LTD,
I know you've seen this silly discussion and you've seen me make the case so I'll forego all of that and just tell you what Jesus told His Disciples when he sent them out. Jesus knew there were bad men and He told them that is they had not a sword to sell their cloak and to buy one. Yes, Jesus also instructed us to obey His commands and buying the sword or, today, protect your family, is a command of God.

 

[th1b.taylor]

He overcomes them, because Spirit conquers the flesh. Flesh is temporary, Spirit is eternal.

No, the blood from Him warring with them will be bridle deep in the Valley of the Armageddon. The saints will rule with Him and the rule will be administered with a rod of iron.

 

[WIP]

Let's stay on topic.

 

[Butch5]

Make your case and do not treat me as if I were a child. You keep falling back to the creeds and the creeds and what the early Church Fathers did or didn't do has nothing to do with the Living Word of God, the creeds are things men decided in meetings and are not canonized. Just make your case.

Bill, If you're not interested in investing the time to read a few pages that I wrote on this, why would you expect me to devote the time it takes to write these posts that will likely simply be rejected. It takes quite a bit of time to put together the information necessary to make the case. I've spent hours gathering information and writing posts only to have others say, that's just your opinion, or something similar and never address the information. I've already compiled the information from both the Bible and the Early church and written the paper. If you're not interested in reading that why would I expect you to be willing to read it here?

My argument was that the early church wouldn't use violence and I've already shown that from their writings. Since this was a unanimous teaching in the early church one has to wonder where they got this idea.

 

[Butch5]

Rev 17:14~~New American Standard Bible
"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."

I'm not sure what this has to do with the commands to Christians. Jesus had authority that the Christian does not. If someone commits murder the government is authorized to execute them, however, the average citizen had no authority to execute the murderer. If they did that they too would be convicted of murder. It's a matter of authority. The Father has giving all authority to the Son and the Son is the one who judges. So, He decides who lives and dies. That does't mean any Christian has that authority.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think this thread has gone over the cliff. Over 60 posts since yesterday!! Seems the basic argument against self defense is that Jesus "never harmed anyone".

Well, let's examine what Jesus taught.

Luke 11:21 - When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:

This is clear: a strong man who is armed.

What else did Jesus talk about? Luke 22:35-38 is in the context of the Last Supper:
35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords.And he said unto them, It is enough.

OK, Jesus told His disciples to sell his garment and buy one is he has no sword. I highly doubt that Jesus was interested in simply tools for peeling figs.

Now, what do you suppose the sword was for? Matt 26:51, Mark 14:47, Luke 22:50 and John 18:10 tells us that Peter drew his weapon (sword) and cut off the ear of Malchus.

Why was Peter armed? For protection. Yes, Jesus rebuked him when the authorities came to arrest Him, but what Peter did provided more evidence that Jesus was God, when He healed Malchus' ear.

If Jesus did not intend His followers to be able to defend themselves and their families, why did He speak of a well armed man who protects his goods, or tell His disciples to sell a garment in order to buy a sword?

Those who want to just lay down in the face of attackers; be my guest. But Jesus intended no such thing.

 

[Butch5]

The following quote is from Cyprian, circa 250 A.D.
*
18. That in the last times the same mountain should be manifested, and
upon it the Gentiles should come, and on it all the righteous should go up. In
Isaiah: “In the last times the mountain of the Lord shall be revealed, and the
house of God upon the tops of the mountains; and it shall be exalted above
the hills, and all nations shall come upon it, and many shall walk and say,
Come, and let us go up into the mountain of the Lord, and into the house of
the God of Jacob; and He will tell us His way, and we will walk in it. For from
Sion shall proceed the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and He
shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke much people; and they shall
beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks,
and they shall no more learn to fight.” (Isaiah 2:2-4) Also in the twentythird
Psalm: “Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord, or who shall stand in
His holy place? He that is innocent in his hands, and of a clean heart; who
hath not received his life in vanity, and hath not sworn craftily to his
neighbour. He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and mercy from the
God that saveth him. This is the generation of those who seek Him, that
seek the face of the God of Jacob.” (Psalms 24:3-6)