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Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?

LovethroughDove said:
Cause Jesus didn't
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Actually He did......minus a weapon.

Luke 4
28 So all those in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 and rose up and thrust Him out of the city; and they led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city was built, that they might throw Him down over the cliff.
30 Then passing through the midst of them, He went His way.



He stopped the crowd from doing Him physical harm.

Not your typical form of self defense but self defense non the less.
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Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

These verses dont say Jesus hit them with the thing but it dont say He didn't.

I am amazed at how Christian pacifists will argue and argue Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
 
reba said:
Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
Joh 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

These verses dont say Jesus hit them with the thing but it dont say He didn't.

I am amazed at how Christian pacifists will argue and argue Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
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I may argue, but I don't have contempt for anyone.
 
Mat_5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
 
LovethroughDove said:
Darkness has not understood it. Jesus is a flashing billboard of what the light is.
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Then I agree and Jesus, our model to follow, defended Israel and it's people over and over. Your position is that you don't care what people, in the Bible Jesus lived by, did. If you will read the book of judges and the book of Exodus, you will be amazed at what Jesus did. Jesus is, indeed, our guide and without all of the Word He has preserved for our edification, we cannot follow Him. The "one scripture" you are saying is the only justification is chain referenced to a large portion of the Bible esus inspired.
 
LovethroughDove said:
I like that Gary. You keep posting scripture like that and I will agree with it all. Whatever he did, I will do.
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Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.



The context of this verse is Jesus telling us to be watchful regarding His coming and He uses an analogy in which a home owner is watchful to the point of preventing his home from being broke into.

I personally believe that if defending ones self were sinful, He never would have used that analogy.

Just saying...
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th1b.taylor said:
WIP,
Please, dive in.
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I wasn't going to respond to this but another thought came to mind now. My convictions about this are not real strong one way or the other so please bear with me.

“Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."
Is it possible that Jesus was referencing the finished work He was destined for? What I mean is if His disciples took up the sword, it would deny God's plan for our salvation therefore, we all would perish by that sword rather than obtain the hope of salvation through the blood of the cross because Jesus would not be able to complete the work assigned to Him by the Father.

I guess I'm kind of thinking out loud here as I follow along with this discussion.
 
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Butch5 said:
Bill, If you're not interested in investing the time to read a few pages that I wrote on this, why would you expect me to devote the time it takes to write these posts that will likely simply be rejected. It takes quite a bit of time to put together the information necessary to make the case. I've spent hours gathering information and writing posts only to have others say, that's just your opinion, or something similar and never address the information. I've already compiled the information from both the Bible and the Early church and written the paper. If you're not interested in reading that why would I expect you to be willing to read it here?

My argument was that the early church wouldn't use violence and I've already shown that from their writings. Since this was a unanimous teaching in the early church one has to wonder where they got this idea.
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It was not unanimous.

The church was dispersed, in other countries, and here you have one guy declaring it a "man-made" commandment that we can not protect our loved ones. This is not from God!

Please tell me if your 5 year old was being raped or killed you would not use violence to get the rapist to stop because that is just sick and cowardly to stand by and watch something like that.

It is self-righteousness NOT to stop a criminal, it is the believer who tells himself he would never use violence in such a situation - UNTIL they are in one.
 
WIP said:
I wasn't going to respond to this but another thought came to mind now. My convictions about this are not real strong one way or the other so please bear with me.

“Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."
Is it possible that Jesus was referencing the finished work He was destined for? What I mean is if His disciples took up the sword, it would deny God's plan for our salvation therefore, we all would perish by that sword rather than obtain the hope of salvation through the blood of the cross because Jesus would not be able to complete the work assigned to Him by the Father.

I guess I'm kind of thinking out loud here as I follow along with this discussion.
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I would say you are on the same journey I made before I arrived where I am in this. If His followers dared not stop the process. If they had there could be no salvation.
 
Jesse said:
It was not unanimous.

The church was dispersed, in other countries, and here you have one guy declaring it a "man-made" commandment that we can not protect our loved ones. This is not from God!

Please tell me if your 5 year old was being raped or killed you would not use violence to get the rapist to stop because that is just sick and cowardly to stand by and watch something like that.

It is self-righteousness NOT to stop a criminal, it is the believer who tells himself he would never use violence in such a situation - UNTIL they are in one.
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I agree Jesse. My and my wife's last precious treasure married her young man, earlier, this year and I would and could have easily killed anyone that harmed that baby. By assumption, I have three Grandsons that are not directly of my linage but I will die or kill protecting them, also.
 
th1b.taylor said:
I agree Jesse. My and my wife's last precious treasure married her young man, earlier, this year and I would and could have easily killed anyone that harmed that baby. By assumption, I have three Grandsons that are not directly of my linage but I will die or kill protecting them, also.
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I believe that is the attitude that Christ had....
 
WIP said:
I wasn't going to respond to this but another thought came to mind now. My convictions about this are not real strong one way or the other so please bear with me.

“Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."
Is it possible that Jesus was referencing the finished work He was destined for? What I mean is if His disciples took up the sword, it would deny God's plan for our salvation therefore, we all would perish by that sword rather than obtain the hope of salvation through the blood of the cross because Jesus would not be able to complete the work assigned to Him by the Father.

I guess I'm kind of thinking out loud here as I follow along with this discussion.
Click to expand...
Seems a bit convoluted for him to say that, as he of course also added that it was for the purpose of Scripture being fulfilled.
 
Has anyone yet considered that in self defense, even using a gun, that your goal should be to stop the act of violence the other person is committing rather than your goal being to kill the other person? Even with a gun, if it is the last resort, you still don't have to have the mindset that you are out to kill someone, just that you have to stop them and this is the last option available to you other than just letting them get away with what they are doing and probably kill you or someone else. Yes, shooting them may kill them, but many times it doesn't. When you're full of adrenaline you really aren't going to place that bullet right between their eyes like they do in the movies. Just ask anyone who has been in a real life situation where they have actually had to shoot someone! Even if you've had training and practice you'll probably be lucky to hit them anywhere at all! So if your mindset is right, killing the person isn't your goal. Stopping the crime is your goal, and if that results in their death, that's just a sad reality but it didn't have to be your intention. How is it a sin to do what you can to stop someone from committing a violent crime against you or against someone else?
 
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Obadiah said:
Has anyone yet considered that in self defense, even using a gun, that your goal should be to stop the act of violence the other person is committing rather than your goal being to kill the other person? Even with a gun, if it is the last resort, you still don't have to have the mindset that you are out to kill someone, just that you have to stop them and this is the last option available to you other than just letting them get away with what they are doing and probably kill you or someone else. Yes, shooting them may kill them, but many times it doesn't. When you're full of adrenaline you really aren't going to place that bullet right between their eyes like they do in the movies. Just ask anyone who has been in a real life situation where they have actually had to shoot someone! Even if you've had training and practice you'll probably be lucky to hit them anywhere at all! So if your mindset is right, killing the person isn't your goal. Stopping the crime is your goal, and if that results in their death, that's just a sad reality but it didn't have to be your intention. How is it a sin to do what you can to stop someone from committing a violent crime against you or against someone else?
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Yes! The goal is to STOP them.

Those who would claim it is a sin to use violence or those who are anti-gun activists, enhance all the drama by using the word "kill". As if the only way to stop them is to kill them.

It has to be made out worse than what it is - it's simply getting the guy to stop raping/killing/robbing. They are thugs and criminals, why let them do what they want???
 
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