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Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?

What is violence?
Is grabbing a guy and twisting his arm around his back violence?
how about one good punch?
continued beating ?
Is the violence the same when the 98 pound granny uses a gun as when the linebacker for the Rams uses a gun?
A friend's husband used his hand in a pocket to look like a gun to rob the 7-11 IMO that was violence. .
Is it violent to slap the guy getting fresh.?
 
Butch5 said:
Firstly, I stated that the early church wouldn't use violence, I've proven that point with multiple quotes. Then you asked for a Biblical case, which is not what I stated. Then I told you where you could read that Biblical case and you've refused to do so. So far I've seen ad hominems, poisoning the well and other fallacies. Yet, you want me to spend several hours compiling the information by cutting and pasting enough of it together to make a case and at the same time not posting to much because people can't read to much. Why would I do that when I'm pretty certain you'll reject anything I post no matter what it says.

I've given the link and I'll give it again, if anyone is truly interested in this subject they can read it if not my posting isn't going to make a difference anyway. Now, if you decide to read it then we can discuss it, if not there is no need to continue this back and forth.

Should Christians Use Violence?
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DUDE!
You are teaching, you have admitted that. I have triked very hard to remain away from personal attacks because it is a lawyers trick, I hate. You are teaching a false doctrine and if you find that a personal attack you need to teach me how to say that truth without offense.

When I teach, I do not, generally, need my Bible to be opened because I do my best to surrender to the will of the Holy Spirit, that He might lead. Even you are not going to read the 39 pages you want the world to wade through to maake your own case from your own words... do you honestly not know what you have written?

If you consider the comparison of the false doctrine you teach to the false doctrine of Jim Jones and the Kool Aide and to the burn the house down teaching of the Waco Wacko. NO! I spoke not of you, I alluded to your doctrine, even I, an Eighth Grade Graduate know that much. Ad homonym is an attack to the person. I admit it might have hurt your feelings but this forum is not here to ease our insecurities, those are, best, addressed at the Shrinks office. We even have a beautiful lass here that will take your money and allow you to come to her office for that.

We, or at least I am, discussing biblical theology. I often spend 15 minutes searching Google for Scripture Address' for comments on the Bible. I suspect that if your thesis is Bible based, you can do the same thing. Nobody is going to read your thesis, just prove your case and get off of the excuse train... man up!
 
Butch 5 is a female. she is basing her idea of non-violence on what I call oral traditions. sometimes those are right and other times off. I believe this subject is one of personal conviction.
 
reba said:
What is violence?
Is grabbing a guy and twisting his arm around his back violence?
how about one good punch?
continued beating ?
Is the violence the same when the 98 pound granny uses a gun as when the linebacker for the Rams uses a gun?
A friend's husband used his hand in a pocket to look like a gun to rob the 7-11 IMO that was violence. .
Is it violent to slap the guy getting fresh.?
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Great points Reba. Violence was exebited in it pure righteousness by Jesus in the Temple when He tolod the theives what they were as He over-turned their tablesw that day.
 
Butch5 said:
Firstly, I stated that the early church wouldn't use violence, I've proven that point with multiple quotes. Then you asked for a Biblical case, which is not what I stated. Then I told you where you could read that Biblical case and you've refused to do so. So far I've seen ad hominems, poisoning the well and other fallacies. Yet, you want me to spend several hours compiling the information by cutting and pasting enough of it together to make a case and at the same time not posting to much because people can't read to much. Why would I do that when I'm pretty certain you'll reject anything I post no matter what it says.

I've given the link and I'll give it again, if anyone is truly interested in this subject they can read it if not my posting isn't going to make a difference anyway. Now, if you decide to read it then we can discuss it, if not there is no need to continue this back and forth.

Should Christians Use Violence?
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Like any controversial subjects, there is a balance.

If you are sent by the Lord to preach the Gospel and Demonstrate His power and authority to the nations, and raise up churches, then most likely you are called to be a martyr.

To the average person who is called to take care of his family and community then there is a different obligation.

8But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8

Provide here carries the meaning of provision as well as prepare in advance.

Protecting our families, as well as providing for them is a calling and mandate from God.


JLB
 
JLB said:
Like any controversial subjects, there is a balance.

If you are sent by the Lord to preach the Gospel and Demonstrate His power and authority to the nations, and raise up churches, then most likely you are called to be a martyr.

To the average person who is called to take care of his family and community then there is a different obligation.

8But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8

Provide here carries the meaning of provision as well as prepare in advance.

Protecting our families, as well as providing for them is a calling and mandate from God.


JLB
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You and I have had some lively discussions but when you're right, you're right and you are right. Is that overdone with the rights?
 
Butch5 said:
Nothing, it goes to your method of reasoning.
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My method of reasoning is simply to stop a crime if one is able.

I'm not ignoring it. As I said, the word means a small sword or a big knife. He didn't tell them to use it for dense and when Peter did Jesus rebuked him.
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I've already explained the double edged sword ain't no toothpick. It was the most lethal weapons of the time. It's what the Roman soldiers used in battle, and they were VERY successful in battle. They could carve up an enemy trying to swing a broad sword in no time.

You are only assuming what Jesus meant when He told them to buy a sword. Let's not do that. By the very nature of the type of sword He mentioned, He sure didn't have domestic intentions for a machira.

There's nothing in the text condoning it. Jesus is simply acknowledging that it exists. If He had said the prostitute had defended her house would you argue that prostitution was OK?
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Irrelevant. But, no, I wouldn't.

Everything I see says it was a large knife like a dagger or a small sword. What "could" be done with it doesn't determine what Jesus intended them to do with it. One can kill with a baseball bat too, but if one said take a bat that doesn't mean that intend it for that purpose.
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Oh, for heaven's sake. Please do some simple research on the Roman machira and learn what an effective fighting weapon it was. Far superior to any other sword used by Rome's enemies.

Just because something can be used for a purpose doesn't mean that that is it's intended purpose.
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This is just laughable.

Jesus was sending them out to the nations, they would have need to prepare food, cut rope etc. A knife would be necessary for the them to get along.
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Your attempt to diminish a machira to that of a pocket knife is amazingly silly.

I'll tell you the reason Jesus told them to buy a machira. The countryside was full of bandits. Paul even noted as much in 2 Cor 11:26 (NIV).

I must have missed that in text. I thought Jesus said, those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword.
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He was making the point of violence. Defending Jesus wasn't appropriate, and Peter was just being violent. That was the point. Jesus wasn't getting all disarmament on them, as you seem to want to believe.

Do you suppose that Abraham used a sword when he went to offer Isaac?
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The Bible is clear enough. He used a knife. Not a machira.

KJV Genesis 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. (Gen 22:10 KJV)

It's the same word, the translators just chose to translate it differently.
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For your information, the OT was written in Hebrew, and the NT was written in Greek. So, no, it isn't the "same word". Not even close.

He was trying to thwart God's plan? How exactly do you know that? Standing there facing armed men isn't time for self defense? If not when is. Come on man!
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Jesus had already told them that He must die. The fact that none of them seemed to grasp that is a different issue. And, yes, Peter WAS trying to thwart God's plan. It was NOT God's plan to defend Jesus and rescue Him from the mob. Where have you been????

What you can't wriggle your way out of is the FACT that Jesus told His disciples to sell a garment to buy a highly effective fighting weapon.
 
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