Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?

[Jesse]

My dad, WW II Pacific Veteran and Korean War vet taught me that when, not if but when a Police Officer (he had better never hear me call one a Cop) pulled me over, I was to be polite and it the Officer told me to jump to ask him how high and how many times. My dad grew up when Cop was an insult, still should be.

The only reason I used "cop" was because it's much shorter to write than police officer, nothing out of disrespect.

My point was people are being raised not to respect authority, and when it comes to people in uniform with a gun, it'd be smart to respect them.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The only reason I used "cop" was because it's much shorter to write than police officer, nothing out of disrespect.

My point was people are being raised not to respect authority, and when it comes to people in uniform with a gun, it'd be smart to respect them.

Naw, I wasn't raggin' on you. You were commenting on the lack of respect and I, likely, should have explained that i was explaining the loss of respect witnessed by me in the last sixty years. I knew things had changed when i came home because I was ragged on with some filthy names and before the cab that carried me to the Frisco Airport could pull away spit was dripping from my forehead and I was pummeling the snot out of the hippie spitting on and cursing me. I was just over a day off the field of death and that knothead jumped me. I had never called any officer of the law anything but Officer but I knew, right then, the world had changed.

The Frisco Officer that watched me beat the snot out of the fool stopped me before, in rage, I killed him and told me to get on a plane before he returned from the Hospital and filing his report, very cool officer. Before the week was over I knew the new name was the insult, cop, and I'm still adjusting to the lack of respect these 45 years later.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

God said to love our neighbor and bretheran "just as" He loves them.........
Jesus teaches us to walk in love and forgiveness and faith.
No place does the word of God teach us to be a patsy or door mat for people.
Self defense and Christians........
God said revenge is His .........

Now then let me ask you a question........if you see some one getting attacked do you walk by or step in to try and help the victom? If you say step in and help......then did you do this in revenge or true love for a person being wrongly hurt ?
There is a big difference between ...defending and vengence......

First move should be crying out to Jesus for wisdom and strength and His protection as you head off to help.
Go in His name not your own strength or anger.......You might find a big aangel standing behind you that scares the wrong doers out of the county or find that His word comes out in a Powerful move to aid and correct the sittuation or you may end up being a sampson for a moment.........I know these to be true first hand !!

There was a lady in which ( short version ) found her self in the hands of a very bad man who had killed and killed and killed and was on the run. She found her self in her car with this man. She walked in LOVE...She knew her place in Christ and her Covenant with God. She remained calm and collected. She just began to talk to this man in Love.

She told this fugitive that she loved him and that God loved him.. She just went on and on...Now the guy was getting very angry with this rambling of hers and told hermany times to shut up and stop talking. She would pray and start all over and after some time the man lost it and became very upset and desperate and she agreed to stop talking but asked if she could finish listening to her teaching tape in the radio....Anything but just stop talking....

So she put it in and began to praise God and after some time the man asked what was this she was listening too and the lady explained it to him and kept praying for him and speaking things to him here and there. After some time the power of God broke through and ther man began to weep and asked her about this Jesus and in short she lead this man to the Lord all the while being in a massive police search for this guy. The police officers were catching up and began to surround the car as they drove. The man became scared and beganto panic some and the lady was able to convince him to surrender and he agreed only if she stayed with him until the end anbd call 911 and explain who she was and that he was with her and they were going to the police station and he would surrender there.
They made it and he surrendered and was taken into custody with out harm to any one and the lady I beleive visits him and keeps sharring the love of God.......

Two compleat different situations or reactions........
Now if the lady would have aqcted on her own and let fear in and operated out of hate....well this story would have had a different ending.....
My point................Walking in Love is not only a comandment but it Pleases the Father.....
It takes work and much discipline to get to this place where one can walk in this much love that panic does not set in.
See just because you are born again does not automatically make all the scriptures bring results in your life. They are there but must be used. However you can not go living your life and when you get into trouble deside you are goinhg to use faith now and speak Gods word and be a hero....better call for backup.....

Faith...Love...Forgivness......go together......you wont see the results you are looking for if you leave any one of these out. SO CHRISTIAN DEFENDING............as long as you do not do it in hate or retaliation or vengance and walk in love which means FORGIVING them afterwords......why not.

Oh and a police officer is a minister of God for OUR good...... He has the right to carry the sword......let him do his job and keep them in prayer....
My take on this subject.......
Have a wonderful Day
Jim

 

[FreeGrace]

I guess the verses from Esther I posted in #409 didn't seem to have much effect.

Would some of the pacifists here please comment on those verses? I'd love to see your perspective on God's Word in the area of self defense.

 

[Jesse]

Naw, I wasn't raggin' on you. You were commenting on the lack of respect and I, likely, should have explained that i was explaining the loss of respect witnessed by me in the last sixty years. I knew things had changed when i came home because I was ragged on with some filthy names and before the cab that carried me to the Frisco Airport could pull away spit was dripping from my forehead and I was pummeling the snot out of the hippie spitting on and cursing me. I was just over a day off the field of death and that knothead jumped me. I had never called any officer of the law anything but Officer but I knew, right then, the world had changed.

The Frisco Officer that watched me beat the snot out of the fool stopped me before, in rage, I killed him and told me to get on a plane before he returned from the Hospital and filing his report, very cool officer. Before the week was over I knew the new name was the insult, cop, and I'm still adjusting to the lack of respect these 45 years later.

That's cool he let you get away!

Personally, I think the things they charge minors with is over the top. I heard that in the county I live, the prosecuting attorney is especially going after minors, charging them with the highest crime possible, maybe this is standard across the US. There were these kids who trespassed, broke into an old abandoned house and then were charged felonies for breaking into the home (even after it was abandoned for several years and 1 year later was demolished), there was no way anyone could live in the house. The roof had collapsed, but I guess they didn't care about that.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ~ Jesus

For people who are totally disregarding this verse.

 

[th1b.taylor]

That's cool he let you get away!

Personally, I think the things they charge minors with is over the top. I heard that in the county I live, the prosecuting attorney is especially going after minors, charging them with the highest crime possible, maybe this is standard across the US. There were these kids who trespassed, broke into an old abandoned house and then were charged felonies for breaking into the home (even after it was abandoned for several years and 1 year later was demolished), there was no way anyone could live in the house. The roof had collapsed, but I guess they didn't care about that.

I don't know the entire story, you know, attitude when caught, response to the police and so on but it might be harsh because the DA was building a rep but it might be because he or she saw one or more hard core, future, criminal, tough to second guess here.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ~ Jesus

For people who are totally disregarding this verse.

I have asked you to study but you have refused to look for context and the entire Bible is written in one context. Here is the entire paragraph and the, so important, chain references;
Retaliation
38 [See ver. 27 above] You have heard that it was said, Cited from Ex. 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21 ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, 1 Pet. 2:23 Do not resist the one who is evil. But For ver. 39-42, see Luke 6:29, 30; [Rom. 12:17] if anyone ch. 26:67; Isa. 50:6; Lam. 3:30 slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And [See ver. 39 above] if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, 1 let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone ch. 27:32 forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Ps. 37:21; Prov. 21:26 Give to the one who begs from you, and Deut. 15:8; Ps. 37:26; 112:5; Luke 6:34, 35 do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.(ESV)

You must never jerk a passage out of it's context and then proceed to rape it. You torture the scripture, trying to use the same trick people like David Koresh and Jim Jones used to create their heretical stances. Please, this can be so dangerous to your eternal well being, don't do this. Every time you post a message here it travels through no less than two servers, usually more, and is recorded, never to disappear. You are teaching and as I always say to folks, ignorance of the law is not an excuse here and it will not be ab excuse in Heaven.

The short context for this verse is all of the fifth through the seventh chapters but it does not stop there.

 

[FreeGrace]

Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ~ Jesus

For people who are totally disregarding this verse.

Are you aware of the context for this verse? It applies to the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. Not before. If this verse applies, please advise about the self defense in Esther that saved the exiled Jews from annihilation.

I suppose you'd have to say that it wasn't God's will for the Jews to defend themselves against their enemies, who wanted to wipe them out.

Just read the book of Esther. It's quite clear.

 

[jasonc]

Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ~ Jesus

For people who are totally disregarding this verse.

so when they ask to rape they daughter hand her over. its says don't resist that also means not complying in a court of law. if an officer tells me to turn around and lean forward at the waist , and I don't comply.i just resisted arrist without violence. when he applies hand and arm joint locks to force compliance and I still resist and punch then im resisting with violence.

 

[Jesse]

Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ~ Jesus

For people who are totally disregarding this verse.

Do you think that Jesus would tell you to do not resist the man who would rape your daughter, if someone rapes your daughter, just stand by and watch, and btw, give the rapist your other daughter, too?

You should wait until you're in a life threatening situation, take not of your reaction and then come back her and report. Just like Obidiah has said, it's easy to sit in a house, safe and warm, but it all changes when you are actually attacked - then it's game on.

 

[Gary]

Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ~ Jesus

For people who are totally disregarding this verse.

What would you do if you came face to face with this type of situation?

.

 

[Edward]

What would you do if you came face to face with this type of situation?

.

I'd do what this man did.
Like Jesse said, it all changes when it's for real and in your face. I had an incident years ago when a drunk woman showed up at my house in the early AM and began being belligerent and long story short, she wound up hurting my first born, who was about 5 or 6 and standing there to see what's up, who is this at the door and so forth, as I tried to shut the door, she double fisted the screen door and that popped out the screen which hit my young one just above the eye and he began bleeding profusely from it.

I glanced at my boy and seen blood...and went into a rage. The emotion of rage overwhelmed me and I decked the woman like I would a man, and took her off of her feet, all 400 pounds of her. My situation is nowhere near the gravity of the situation where the man saw someone molesting his 4 year old, but I still raged. I know that I should have been able to control my rage...but this was my boy, and I could not.

Was I wrong? I don't think so. This was family and blood had been drawn. It was reflexive and not conscious. I don't feel bad about it, nor do I think that there was a better way to handle it. Sometimes, a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do, whether it is conscious or reflexive doesn't matter, it was on. This is not a time for prayer or turning the other cheek. That sounds real good on paper, but is not real life.

Even when Jesus saw the money changers taking advantage of His Fathers house...He did not start witnessing to them, He immediately stood up for His Fathers honor. Consciously went and made Himself a whip! That was not reflexive or rage. This was responding in a way that was likely the only thing that these guys understood...

Sometimes, violence is the only thing that will be an appropriate response. It's not nice...but sometimes it is what is called for. The man who got beat to death for molesting the 4 year old...got off easy. It's a nice thought that he could have faced the music and paid more dearly for his crime (from what I hear, inmates don't like child molesters)...but it is what it is. He got lucky in being able to die then, and I will not condemn the dad for doing this to the man.

That's whats going to be good about the next life. We wont have to deal with this sort of situation and be forced into doing things that we would rather not do. The moral of the story is...don't molest children, or you may get beat to death, or worse.

 

[Jesse]

What would you do if you came face to face with this type of situation?

.

That guy is a hero.

 

[gr8grace3]

Sometimes, a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do,

There in lies the problem. Men can't be men anymore. The role of the man is systematically being wiped out of our society.

"Men and women are equal", really means," the mans role is irrelevant."

We have basically been reduced to "Sperm donors" and we have a society of males that say," Ok, that is fine with me." Society has taken away how to teach our males to be MEN. Because a man can't do what a mans gotta do anymore.

 

[tinykitten]

Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. ~ Jesus

For people who are totally disregarding this verse.

I think if we accept that Jesus was God incarnate and he (Jesus - God) , and per scripture, is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that what some appear to be missing is that if Christians are to be Christ-like, then pacifism in the face of offensive homicidal individuals is not to be tolerated.
And what some appear to be missing are all the many scriptures in both old and new testaments that approve self-defense. And defense of others.
In the context of contemporary times if one wishes to invoke Matthew 5:39 let us look to recalling 9-11-2001.
If the scripture applies without reservation we should have delivered a message through international press to Muslims in Saudi Arabia, given the Muslim terrorists who struck us on that day in 2001 hailed from there: Go ahead and hit us again!

God, therefore Jesus, wasn't and is not a pacifist.

 

[Jesse]

There in lies the problem. Men can't be men anymore. The role of the man is systematically being wiped out of our society.

"Men and women are equal", really means," the mans role is irrelevant."

We have basically been reduced to "Sperm donors" and we have a society of males that say," Ok, that is fine with me." Society has taken away how to teach our males to be MEN. Because a man can't do what a mans gotta do anymore.

Awesome post!

It's not surprising that LTD is passive, she's female and wants to pass on female traits to men.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Awesome post!

It's not surprising that LTD is passive, she's female and wants to pass on female traits to men.

I am also submissive (kind of), and want to hand the scales of justice over to God.

 

[Jesse]

I am also submissive (kind of), and want to hand the scales of justice over to God.

I realize you are submissive, that's a female trait.

You never really answered any of my questions about how would you let your daughter be raped and stand by and watch. I think pacifistic say one thing and would do differently in a dangerous situation, which sort of makes them a hypocrite.

 

[tinykitten]

I realize you are submissive, that's a female trait.

That's ignorant and sexist. Please stop.