Christians? Using self-defense and Guns?

[reba]

and i think we are way off topic...

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Good answer :tongue

Why thank you and agree we have gotten off topic.......

 

[FreeGrace]

Husbands should serve and PROTECT their wives - and women do have submissive characteristics. Not sure why that offends you.

Excellent point! In addition to the clear passage in Esther regarding self defense for the Jews against their enemies, we have the story of the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem by Nehemiah in Neh 4:13-23.

Self defense against one's enemies is Biblical. The passage in Matt about turning the other cheek applies only during the Millennial rule of Christ on earth. Not before. The reason is that justice will be extremely swift during the Millennial Reign.

 

[Jesse]

I'm not offended. I'm attempting to correct your ignorance and sexist point of view.


You repeatedly insist it is a female trait. I'll stop now. If a link to the Greek reference and reason doesn't help you that's perfectly as God wills.

Yes, and why do you keep posting one of my posts over and over again?

Why is no one else offended about this?

Probably because it's just common sense.

I am submissive to God and the governing laws.....and your point?

 

[WIP]

I also know God gave us senses and instincts and when we are able, we protect our loved ones because God gave us a way to do so.

I'm not arguing in opposition to your view but God also gave us feelings of lust so then was Christ wrong when he said that if we even look at a woman with lust we have committed adultery in our heart?

 

[WIP]

Do you not run the chance of 'do not judge, or you too will be judged'? Serious question

Technically, if one serves on a jury as he/she is supposed to serve then the judgment doesn't come from personal feelings but from point of law. According to USLegal website this is the role of a jury.

A jury instruction is a guideline given by the judge to the jury about the law they will have to apply to the facts they have found to be true. The purpose of the instructions is to help the jury arrive at a verdict that follows the law of that jurisdiction. In his instructions a judge may explain the legal principles pertaining to the subject matter of the case, make it clear to the jury the legal issues they must decide in order to arrive at a verdict, point out what each side must prove in order to win, and summarize the evidence he sees as relevant and explain how it relates to the issues they must decide. For example, do the facts admitted as evidence and found credible by the jury according to the preponderance of the evidence combined with the application of the legal principles of negligence law warrant a finding by the jury that Smith owed a duty to Jones to be reasonably careful in operating his car?

In giving these instructions, the judge binds the jury. The judge makes clear to the jurors that they are to apply the law to the facts as he gives it to them; they are not to substitute their own judgment as to whether a different law should be applied or whether the law as has been explained to them is unjust. The instructions are to be given in terms a layperson can easily understand. In order to help the jury understand the instructions, the judge may give pre-instructions prior to the time immediately following the presentation of both sides of the case. However, the judge is forbidden to comment on the evidence presented in the case. It is the jury’s responsibility to independently evaluate the evidence.

 

[jasonc]

FLESH........Now you are really heading for trouble.............WE walk by Faith NOT the flesh.......crucify the Flesh is our duty, comand and if we are smart we realise it please our Heavenly Father !!
NO NO NO........you can not allow the flesh to get involved......flesh is the old way of thinking......thinking without God.

so when I must kill with any choke hold I know, and or strike do it in love? its controlled anger the umph that one needs to take that guy out. you cant control that to the point its not there just harness it.

 

[Jesse]

I'm not arguing in opposition to your view but God also gave us feelings of lust so then was Christ wrong when he said that if we even look at a woman with lust we have committed adultery in our heart?

I was referring to survival instincts, I think people have a strong will to survive, is that wrong? It's a sense of well being and surviving, it's a good thing.

Lust would be a sin but having sense enough to protect your loved ones would not be a sin.

 

[Edward]

I think if we accept that Jesus was God incarnate and he (Jesus - God) , and per scripture, is the same yesterday, today, and forever, that what some appear to be missing is that if Christians are to be Christ-like, then pacifism in the face of offensive homicidal individuals is not to be tolerated.
And what some appear to be missing are all the many scriptures in both old and new testaments that approve self-defense. And defense of others.
In the context of contemporary times if one wishes to invoke Matthew 5:39 let us look to recalling 9-11-2001.
If the scripture applies without reservation we should have delivered a message through international press to Muslims in Saudi Arabia, given the Muslim terrorists who struck us on that day in 2001 hailed from there: Go ahead and hit us again!

God, therefore Jesus, wasn't and is not a pacifist.

Well said sister.

Post #460: Like.

There in lies the problem. Men can't be men anymore. The role of the man is systematically being wiped out of our society.

"Men and women are equal", really means," the mans role is irrelevant."

We have basically been reduced to "Sperm donors" and we have a society of males that say," Ok, that is fine with me." Society has taken away how to teach our males to be MEN. Because a man can't do what a mans gotta do anymore.

True that. Society is set up for emasculated men figures. All you can do is to teach the children well, and to be a man anyway. Then, whatever will be, will be, and they can only kill us once, and not even permanently. The principle stands even when being led by the Spirit. This also means that there's no reason to fear.

The ironic blessing here, is that this is totally available to every believer. There's no need for priests or elders for the most part. I think it's a given that we will suffer, but...He will not leave us or forsake us. All we have to do is walk the faith out. Applied faith allows God to operate within our lives. If we get scared and make a choice other than what the Spirit has led us to...it is being disobedient. Remember Jonah? God says go to Ninevah...Jonah went the other way...and you just can't hide from God, lol.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

so when I must kill with any choke hold I know, and or strike do it in love? its controlled anger the umph that one needs to take that guy out. you cant control that to the point its not there just harness it.

Walking in Love..............what does this mean to you ?
God gives a soldier the right to kill meaning it is not held against him and he can walk in God's protection.
Now then if this soldier walks in hate as in to hate the enemy and just blows them away cause he is killing the enemy then he is walking on dangerious ground and steps outside of God's protection.

You have confused my point with another view and thats really ok.
Yes i understand that in a given situation one might forget or loose sight for a moment or two as they see it kill or be killed. However............in a given situation .....if you cried out to our Lord before you did a thing and this can be done as you head over to the situation...I am not saying go find a church and pray this long prayer...and I think you know this.
Then you use his word as you begin to try and correct the situation..not all situations are the same and sometimes you just have to cry out to Jesus and defend your self BUT listen to me now.... ;) once you brought Jesus intothe picture by crying out then you release Him to enter into this situation.....when you just jump out of anger and have the mind set of...I am going to rip this heathens head off and stuff in his back pack.....well your in the flesh or way of the world and now you have chosen to handle this your way and therefore.....pushing God out of the way...

Then once the situation is under control its time to stop.....there can be no i am going to hunt you down or your a dead man and so on...NO NO NO that is walking in the flesh and will not bring you God's best or support.....See He is a God of His word.
He gave us a choice....((Duet. 30 )) Choose His way and you get these results...choose your way and you get these results. All of His word is based from this stand point as well.....so walking in Love vs walking in the flesh or the way of the world is a choice WE MUST make......See God never changes...His word does not ever change...

No I am not drifting off topic here.......simply showing you the difference in what you said here and what I am saying.

 

[jasonc]

Walking in Love..............what does this mean to you ?
God gives a soldier the right to kill meaning it is not held against him and he can walk in God's protection.
Now then if this soldier walks in hate as in to hate the enemy and just blows them away cause he is killing the enemy then he is walking on dangerious ground and steps outside of God's protection.

You have confused my point with another view and thats really ok.
Yes i understand that in a given situation one might forget or loose sight for a moment or two as they see it kill or be killed. However............in a given situation .....if you cried out to our Lord before you did a thing and this can be done as you head over to the situation...I am not saying go find a church and pray this long prayer...and I think you know this.
Then you use his word as you begin to try and correct the situation..not all situations are the same and sometimes you just have to cry out to Jesus and defend your self BUT listen to me now.... ;) once you brought Jesus intothe picture by crying out then you release Him to enter into this situation.....when you just jump out of anger and have the mind set of...I am going to rip this heathens head off and stuff in his back pack.....well your in the flesh or way of the world and now you have chosen to handle this your way and therefore.....pushing God out of the way...

Then once the situation is under control its time to stop.....there can be no i am going to hunt you down or your a dead man and so on...NO NO NO that is walking in the flesh and will not bring you God's best or support.....See He is a God of His word.
He gave us a choice....((Duet. 30 )) Choose His way and you get these results...choose your way and you get these results. All of His word is based from this stand point as well.....so walking in Love vs walking in the flesh or the way of the world is a choice WE MUST make......See God never changes...His word does not ever change...

No I am not drifting off topic here.......simply showing you the difference in what you said here and what I am saying.

I never said that one was to break any laws of war, ie shoot to kill in combat unless ordered to capture or also they once shot surrender. most of the time when shot most wont return fire.

i don't need to post the basics laws of war and also the use of force matrix. i clearly said any action by a cop or soldier in defense of self and others isn't like the movies but a controlled quick response..

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I never said that one was to break any laws of war, ie shoot to kill in combat unless ordered to capture or also they once shot surrender. most of the time when shot most wont return fire.

i don't need to post the basics laws of war and also the use of force matrix. i clearly said any action by a cop or soldier in defense of self and others isn't like the movies but a controlled quick response..

I never said that one was to break any laws of war, ie shoot to kill in combat unless ordered to capture or also they once shot surrender. most of the time when shot most wont return fire.

i don't need to post the basics laws of war and also the use of force matrix. i clearly said any action by a cop or soldier in defense of self and others isn't like the movies but a controlled quick response..

NO actually you said this and that is what I replied tooo....
((so when I must kill with any choke hold I know, and or strike do it in love? its controlled anger the umph that one needs to take that guy out. you cant control that to the point its not there just harness it.)))

 

[jasonc]

NO actually you said this and that is what I replied tooo....
((so when I must kill with any choke hold I know, and or strike do it in love? its controlled anger the umph that one needs to take that guy out. you cant control that to the point its not there just harness it.)))

its going to be there. so im honest in that. I guess I should die? think about what must be done.

guys has knife, he attempts to stab me, I can evade. after pray. I kill him via gun usage or disarm and or use choke hold or whatever he presents to me. as in any good grappling art or any art the attacker always give you the technique to use. so I don't have any adreline? no emotions? seriously?

I have prayed that prayer a lot , I cant recall any overriding of fear by god. just be able to shoot if need be.i never had to do but I was ready.

I don't believe in hope god helps, he does send those to save others. I would be that person. I have done it and not even been a cop nor in uniform. sometimes by calling for aid.so tell me what training in law enforcement, military, martial arts have you had? a person learns to control this reaction in all three, the best is by law enforcement training and martial arts together. a cop cant just shot without the force requiring that. while the military has that as well unless one is an mp its not as common to train for that.

 

[Edward]

...in a given situation .....if you cried out to our Lord before you did a thing and this can be done as you head over to the situation...I am not saying go find a church and pray this long prayer...

I see what you're saying. Many times (most?) (civilian situation...) it begins spur of the moment, without warning. No time to pray at all, just react. Do you think this is possible to do...without words? Just by a quick focusing of the heart/spirit onto the Lord?

Nice avatar btw.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I see what you're saying. Many times (most?) (civilian situation...) it begins spur of the moment, without warning. No time to pray at all, just react. Do you think this is possible to do...without words? Just by a quick focusing of the heart/spirit onto the Lord?

Nice avatar btw.

Hi Edward,
Thank you about the avatar !!
For the most part every situation is going to be different. Every person involved will be different. You however should stay the same and what I mean by this is.............consitantly being spirit lead and spirit minded. This is done by the constant renewing or your mind and is not only a conmandment but it also pleases God. What I mean by conmandment here is we are directed by the word of God to renew our minds. This not only prepares us for battle but prepares us to live life in abundance of His love and blessing.

See the more word we put in our hearts (( BUT must be good ground for this seed and keep it watered )) in return makes it so more word will come out of the heart through the mouth (( your words )) Your first words in any situation open the door to how the situation will turn out. This may sound silly to some but never the less it is the way it works.
(( this is a whole nother topic there ))

What I am saying is this...........if you go at it half cocked and on your own anger or stength OR you cry out to Jesus or use His name like In the name of Jesus or simply oh Lord God help me here will totally have different outcomes every single time.

Yes I know some situations dont allow much time to think BUT if the word of God is in you in abundance....Well my friend it will come out in abundance without you thinking about it....It is so important to get His word in you every single day and it is even MORE important in these times or day and age...It does not take a rocket scientist to see how much evil is loose in this world these days and it's gonna get worse as time winds down.

Ok to your question........no time to pray at all just react.......let me ask you this............when you get to the place where you React.........will you say anything....I mean will there be words of some kind that come out of your mouth or will you be more like a vow of silence has been taken ? If you are honest you will know that there will be words coming out of your mouth in abundance...........what will these words carry ? blessing or cursing.....good or evil.....God's words or the devils words. SEEEE people dont always get it but you are either getting your words or (imput on words to use) from either a Godly influence or evil influence or simply put.....Gods words or the devils words.........
I wont go on here in this post with this because I do not want a debate about this in this thread but can start another.

Any way Edward, You NEED to speak out something and you might as well scream Lord Jesus help me here as you go off to reacting..............YOU make this choice........not the situation......you control this not the situation.....
I hope this answers your question....
Hasve a wonderful week
Jim

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward,
Thank you about the avatar !!
For the most part every situation is going to be different. Every person involved will be different. You however should stay the same and what I mean by this is.............consitantly being spirit lead and spirit minded. This is done by the constant renewing or your mind and is not only a conmandment but it also pleases God. What I mean by conmandment here is we are directed by the word of God to renew our minds. This not only prepares us for battle but prepares us to live life in abundance of His love and blessing.

See the more word we put in our hearts (( BUT must be good ground for this seed and keep it watered )) in return makes it so more word will come out of the heart through the mouth (( your words )) Your first words in any situation open the door to how the situation will turn out. This may sound silly to some but never the less it is the way it works.
(( this is a whole nother topic there ))

What I am saying is this...........if you go at it half cocked and on your own anger or stength OR you cry out to Jesus or use His name like In the name of Jesus or simply oh Lord God help me here will totally have different outcomes every single time.

Yes I know some situations dont allow much time to think BUT if the word of God is in you in abundance....Well my friend it will come out in abundance without you thinking about it....It is so important to get His word in you every single day and it is even MORE important in these times or day and age...It does not take a rocket scientist to see how much evil is loose in this world these days and it's gonna get worse as time winds down.

Ok to your question........no time to pray at all just react.......let me ask you this............when you get to the place where you React.........will you say anything....I mean will there be words of some kind that come out of your mouth or will you be more like a vow of silence has been taken ? If you are honest you will know that there will be words coming out of your mouth in abundance...........what will these words carry ? blessing or cursing.....good or evil.....God's words or the devils words. SEEEE people dont always get it but you are either getting your words or (imput on words to use) from either a Godly influence or evil influence or simply put.....Gods words or the devils words.........
I wont go on here in this post with this because I do not want a debate about this in this thread but can start another.

Any way Edward, You NEED to speak out something and you might as well scream Lord Jesus help me here as you go off to reacting..............YOU make this choice........not the situation......you control this not the situation.....
I hope this answers your question....
Hasve a wonderful week
Jim

That makes sense. I'm going to chew on that brother. I had an attempted home invasion a few years ago and I don't think I said anything, just fought. I did manage to drive him off without shooting him. I didn't pray, or cry out to the Lord that I remember. No doubt that He was with me though.

A saturation of self with the word transforms us. The only way that we can be assured that we would do right in a situation of this sort, is to be being led by the Spirit all the time. (but of course most of us are too smart for that, lol). Over educated, leaning upon our own understanding. But being in Christ and led of the spirit, is the spoken word critical? I suspect not within time constraints. More of a releasing of ones will to God at the moment the elephant walks into the room. Is that merely scratching the surface though? You're right, that's a whole 'nother thread, lol.

 

[jonahmano]

I think persecution is something related to the will of God. Not all Christians are persecuted but the law of the land is instituted by God and He is the head over every authority.

 

[LanceA]

I haven't read all the posts since there are so many of them. I believe that we have the right to protect ourselves and others. The only time I would turn the other cheek if I was being persecuted for my religious beliefs and I believe this is what the bible is talking about. If I'm walking with my family at night and two guys take us at gun point and I know their intention is to kill us how is that persecution of my beliefs? I would defend my family since this needless attack wouldn't edify God in one bit. If we die during the struggle so be it. I believe with all my heart that if a Christian is walking in the blessings of God He will protect us from situations like this from ever happening.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I haven't read all the posts since there are so many of them. I believe that we have the right to protect ourselves and others. The only time I would turn the other cheek if I was being persecuted for my religious beliefs and I believe this is what the bible is talking about. If I'm walking with my family at night and two guys take us at gun point and I know their intention is to kill us how is that persecution of my beliefs? I would defend my family since this needless attack wouldn't edify God in one bit. If we die during the struggle so be it. I believe with all my heart that if a Christian is walking in the blessings of God He will protect us from situations like this from ever happening.

Amen Brother,
Now then you said something here that is mighty important and sad to say far too many Christians do not fall into this category. ""Walking in the BLESSINGS of God"" Most Christians think that it automaticaly happens if you claim to be a christian. Many beleive that once you are born again then you are always walking in His blessings......NOTHING couold be further from the truth then this kind of thinking. Yes Roman says Nothing can seperate you from the Love of GOD BUT the Love of GOD IS NOT ((( The Blessing Of God ))

This falls into the same simple box of religious beliefs such as saying God is in Control of everything...That simply is not true.........If you think it is then you have to say that God is killing babies with tornado's. Hey God is in control then the tornado that sent the little baby into the nexty county was God's choice....Hog wash stupid thinken......

If God was in control of everything then Deut. chapters 28 and 30 would be meaningless rubish...BUT it's not.
It is what our salvation and being born again stems from. What I mean is this.....God Give Us The Choice to choose His ways or the worlds ways.....He tells us His ways bring life.....the worlds ways brings curse and death.......

So if GOD was in control of everything........there would be no reason what so ever for HIM to give us a choice. He would simply make you...BUT that aint God and never will be. He is a loving God who loves His creation dearly. Far more then most will ever grasp. He gives us the RIGHT to choose Him or the world or our fleshly desires which will always end up in sin and death....Free Will............this is what gets good people hurt or killed before they should have left this world....People make stupid choices and some times those stupid choices have harsh results and GOD had NOTHING to do with it.
Sorry to go on like this......too many tthoughts going on at once here.
Have a very blessed day !
Jim

 

[LanceA]

Amen Brother,
Now then you said something here that is mighty important and sad to say far too many Christians do not fall into this category. ""Walking in the BLESSINGS of God"" Most Christians think that it automaticaly happens if you claim to be a christian. Many beleive that once you are born again then you are always walking in His blessings......NOTHING couold be further from the truth then this kind of thinking. Yes Roman says Nothing can seperate you from the Love of GOD BUT the Love of GOD IS NOT ((( The Blessing Of God ))

This falls into the same simple box of religious beliefs such as saying God is in Control of everything...That simply is not true.........If you think it is then you have to say that God is killing babies with tornado's. Hey God is in control then the tornado that sent the little baby into the nexty county was God's choice....Hog wash stupid thinken......

If God was in control of everything then Deut. chapters 28 and 30 would be meaningless rubish...BUT it's not.
It is what our salvation and being born again stems from. What I mean is this.....God Give Us The Choice to choose His ways or the worlds ways.....He tells us His ways bring life.....the worlds ways brings curse and death.......

So if GOD was in control of everything........there would be no reason what so ever for HIM to give us a choice. He would simply make you...BUT that aint God and never will be. He is a loving God who loves His creation dearly. Far more then most will ever grasp. He gives us the RIGHT to choose Him or the world or our fleshly desires which will always end up in sin and death....Free Will............this is what gets good people hurt or killed before they should have left this world....People make stupid choices and some times those stupid choices have harsh results and GOD had NOTHING to do with it.
Sorry to go on like this......too many tthoughts going on at once here.
Have a very blessed day !
Jim

I agree with you that God isn't in control of everything. If He was then we would just be robots. I just feel God will protect the people that are walking in HIs blessings, this is to include health as well. God does let us make our own decisions. But to walk in Gods blessing also means that if God is telling me to go witness to someone that lives in a shady and dangerous area then I need to have faith that God will protect me and listen to Him and allow Him to guide me.