[_ Old Earth _] Christians, why not evolution?

[ArtGuy]

The Tower of Babel is in Genesis, yet clearly the idea of that being literal is absurd. It must, therefore, be allegory. If part of Genesis is allegory, why not more of it, or all of it?

It was real.

...

They built a skyscraper to heaven. God was sure they would succeed if they kept at it. Given that we've sent probes out billions of miles without bumping into heaven, exactly how tall do you propose this tower was?

Oh, wait... this was the merged universe, right? And we can't understand within the confines of our narrow PO views, yes? Because before the split, you could actually hop in a plane and fly to heaven.

 

[Kefka]

Because before the split, you could actually hop in a plane and fly to heaven.

Now you're just being ridiculous, they didn't have planes back then :D

In all seriousness though, the tower could have been some sort of metaphor or something, I wouldn't rule out it's existence.

 

[ArtGuy]

In all seriousness though, the tower could have been some sort of metaphor or something, I wouldn't rule out it's existence.

Well, yes, that was my point. I don't doubt that mankind did or made something out of arrogance that was meant to elevate them to the status of Godhood, and so they were punished. This is the lesson we're supposed to take away from the Tower of Babel. But it can't be a real tower that was actually supposed to reach heaven, because that's silly. It must be a metaphor.

 

[dad]

..
They built a skyscraper to heaven. God was sure they would succeed if they kept at it.

Think about it. What does this tell us? That they used to be able to build really high? No, that there may have been a place up in the sky here at that time (before the seperation) where spirits tended to live! Why not? It makes sense.

[quote:e9227]Given that we've sent probes out billions of miles without bumping into heaven, exactly how tall do you propose this tower was?

Depends on where the spiritual layer was. I could hazard a guess, say, at a mile high.

Oh, wait... this was the merged universe, right? And we can't understand within the confines of our narrow PO views, yes? Because before the split, you could actually hop in a plane and fly to heaven.

[/quote:e9227]

The sons of god certainly hopped enough to hop on the women at the time! Why is this such a stretch? Don't you believe there is a layer below us as we speak that is for spirits as well? Either we believe the bible or we don't. Anyone got a better one, to leave the bible true?

 

[ArtGuy]

Don't you believe there is a layer below us as we speak that is for spirits as well?

I don't believe that if we start digging, we'll wind up in Hell, no.

Either we believe the bible or we don't. Anyone got a better one, to leave the bible true?

Yes, it's called "allegory". The truth is in the idea that mankind became arrogant and was punished for it. The rest of the story is just window dressing.

 

[dad]

I don't believe that if we start digging, we'll wind up in Hell, no.

It is down there.



[quote:929be]Yes, it's called "allegory". The truth is in the idea that mankind became arrogant and was punished for it. The rest of the story is just window dressing.

[/quote:929be]
Says you. But Jesus said something else. For example, of the flood,
Matt 24: 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; ...

 

[Drew]

The mere fact that Jesus referred to the flood is not really definitive proof that it was a real event. Jesus could have been referring to a "myth" in order to connect with his audience who he knew would be familiar with this story. We even do this kind of thing in casual speech. We say things like "Remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf", etc. Myth and allegory can be effective tools in order to transmit important truths from generation to generation in a culture.

 

[Solo]

The mere fact that Jesus referred to the flood is not really definitive proof that it was a real event. Jesus could have been referring to a "myth" in order to connect with his audience who he knew would be familiar with this story. We even do this kind of thing in casual speech. We say things like "Remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf", etc. Myth and allegory can be effective tools in order to transmit important truths from generation to generation in a culture.

You're serious?! :o

 

[Drew]

The mere fact that Jesus referred to the flood is not really definitive proof that it was a real event. Jesus could have been referring to a "myth" in order to connect with his audience who he knew would be familiar with this story. We even do this kind of thing in casual speech. We say things like "Remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf", etc. Myth and allegory can be effective tools in order to transmit important truths from generation to generation in a culture.

You're serious?! :o

I most certainly am. Now, given that your post suggests my assertion is dubious, presumably you will be able to tell us precisely why I am wrong. And that explanation cannot "beg the question" - it cannot simply be an undefended claim of the type "The flood was a real event" or "Jesus would never do such a thing".

 

[ArtGuy]

The mere fact that Jesus referred to the flood is not really definitive proof that it was a real event. Jesus could have been referring to a "myth" in order to connect with his audience who he knew would be familiar with this story. We even do this kind of thing in casual speech. We say things like "Remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf", etc. Myth and allegory can be effective tools in order to transmit important truths from generation to generation in a culture.

Wait, you mean there wasn't a literal boy who literally cried wolf? :o

My life has no meaning anymore.

And dad, pardon my incredulity, but you are saying that somewhere below the surface of the Earth there lies Satan and a bunch of demons, and that we could dig a whole and actually go down there right now and walk around Hell. This is what you're saying?

You realize that the Divine Comedies weren't historical texts, right?

 

[Solo]

The mere fact that Jesus referred to the flood is not really definitive proof that it was a real event. Jesus could have been referring to a "myth" in order to connect with his audience who he knew would be familiar with this story. We even do this kind of thing in casual speech. We say things like "Remember what happened to the boy who cried wolf", etc. Myth and allegory can be effective tools in order to transmit important truths from generation to generation in a culture.

You're serious?! :o

I most certainly am. Now, given that your post suggests my assertion is dubious, presumably you will be able to tell us precisely why I am wrong. And that explanation cannot "beg the question" - it cannot simply be an undefended claim of the type "The flood was a real event" or "Jesus would never do such a thing".

You were serious! :roll:

God will guide you into his truth as to what is literal and what is metaphoric as he has millions of other believers, so that there will be no question.

Thanks for your post.

1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: 3 Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. 4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. 2 Corinthians 13:1-6

 

[ArtGuy]

God will guide you into his truth as to what is literal and what is metaphoric as he has millions of other believers, so that there will be no question.

Who's to say that God won't guide you into His truth? The idea of an old earth is pretty common, even among Christians. Why, even in the post about what we believed, only three people who answered believed in a young Earth. Perhaps we're right and you're mistaken, and you'll someday be guided to the truth.

Guess we'll have to wait until we're all in heaven to find out for sure.

 

[Solo]

God will guide you into his truth as to what is literal and what is metaphoric as he has millions of other believers, so that there will be no question.

Who's to say that God won't guide you into His truth?

He is. Follow me as I follow Jesus Christ, and do not accept any other gospel other than that which He taught. His gospel is a literal gospel. :wink:

 

[ArtGuy]

His gospel is a literal gospel.

God will guide you into his truth as to what is literal and what is metaphoric as he has millions of other believers, so that there will be no question.

Which is it? Is it 100% literal, or does there exist some metaphor?

 

[Solo]

His gospel is a literal gospel.

God will guide you into his truth as to what is literal and what is metaphoric as he has millions of other believers, so that there will be no question.

Which is it? Is it 100% literal, or does there exist some metaphor?

The gospel of Jesus is 100% literal.

1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. 3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: 4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. 8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones. 9 Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: 10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine. 11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction: 12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her. 19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens. 20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.

21 My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: 22 So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. 23 Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. 24 When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. 25 Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. 26 For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

27 Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it. 28 Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and to morrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee. 29 Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee. 30 Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm. 31 Envy thou not the oppressor, F12 and choose none of his ways. 32 For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous. 33 The curse of the LORD is in the house of the wicked: but he blesseth the habitation of the just. 34 Surely he scorneth the scorners: but he giveth grace unto the lowly. 35 The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools. Proverbs 3:1-35

 

[ArtGuy]

The gospel of Jesus is 100% literal.

Ignoring for a moment that Jesus told many parables that were clearly meant to be taken metaphorically - the good Samaritan, the shephard and his flock, etc. - there's more to the Bible than the gospel of Jesus. There's this whole Old Testament thing.

Now, you say that God will guide us as to what is literal and what is metaphorical. You say that God has guided you to believe that metaphor more or less doesn't exist in the Bible. Others say that God has guided them to believe that much of the "historical" accounts given therein are meant as allegory. You're secure enough in your correctness to speak very condescendingly to anyone who disagrees with your interpretation. I'm just curious as to how, exactly, you can be so certain that you're not confusing your own interpretation with divine guidance when many millions of other people believe that God has guided them to believe differently.

And I would ask that you don't simply reply with a laundry list of passages, as I've seen you do. I would like to hear your explanation in your own words, if you please.

 

[Drew]

God will guide you into his truth as to what is literal and what is metaphoric as he has millions of other believers, so that there will be no question.

While this is not nastily dismissive, it is still dismissive. You seem to have a history of this - an unsubstantiated implication that you are more
advanced in your spiritual wisdom than others. Please give us reasons to believe this is so. I want to be clear - your statement is quite polite, but it still "politely" dismisses my contention without supporting reasons.

 

[Drew]

Follow me as I follow Jesus Christ, and do not accept any other gospel other than that which He taught.

Did you really mean what you wrote here? - that we are to follow you as you follow Christ? How is this not an implication that you are in some more advanced or priveleged postion than the rest of us? Should we not all be setting our eyes directly on Christ, without needing some kind of intermediary?

 

[Solo]

God will guide you into his truth as to what is literal and what is metaphoric as he has millions of other believers, so that there will be no question.

While this is not nastily dismissive, it is still dismissive. You seem to have a history of this - an unsubstantiated implication that you are more
advanced in your spiritual wisdom than others. Please give us reasons to believe this is so. I want to be clear - your statement is quite polite, but it still "politely" dismisses my contention without supporting reasons.

Sometimes it is better to explain that God will be the only one that can reinforce His understanding and wisdom in any situation. You have my understanding on the subject, and we do not agree. There is no need to continue to banter the subject back and forth. Hopefully you will be able to come to grips with those who disagree with you. May you examine yourself in the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ so that your flesh may continue to give Jesus the seat of the throne in your life. God bless you and yours.

 

[Solo]

Follow me as I follow Jesus Christ, and do not accept any other gospel other than that which He taught.

Did you really mean what you wrote here? - that we are to follow you as you follow Christ? How is this not an implication that you are in some more advanced or priveleged postion than the rest of us? Should we not all be setting our eyes directly on Christ, without needing some kind of intermediary?

I meant exactly what I posted. Follow me AS I follow Jesus Christ, and when a sway off course, do not follow me. Do not accept any other gospel whether from a letter from Paul or the other apostles or me if it doesn't match up with what Jesus teaches. Jesus is the head of the church, and as you strive to become more like him day to day, imitate those who follow Jesus as Jesus taught. Sorry that you did not comprehend the meaning of my previous post. Perhaps your negative bias towards me is playing a part in your misunderstanding. Pray about it as you pray for me.