[__ Science __ ] one reason that abortion is acceptable to us

[miamited]

Hi Tenchi

The moral outrage ought to exist regardless of secular law; for secular law does not always properly reflect what is moral and immoral, what is good and evil.

Well, I guess it's a matter of you describing our response as being an 'outrage' that troubles me. Because I'm afraid some people understand that term to mean that they should be up in arms and in people's faces about it. As I've long since admitted, I'm against someone having an abortion. I also believe that a fetus is as you say. I believe that a believer should see it as a sin. A moral failure it you'd rather. But I don't think that our response should be some 'moral OUTRAGE'. We just need to let our yes be yes and our no be no and let the world go the way that the world is going to go.

So yes, I stand against it as you do. But no, you will never see me marching or protesting or involved in some crowd of yelling and screaming "We have rights!!!!" folks. I'll try not to never denigrate someone who sadly may find themself in need of such a service, but I would take any opportunity to sit and ask if I could talk to them about their situation? If they allow, then I'd try to have a conversation that would steer us to a discussion of Jesus and faith in him. And that Jesus will still love her even if she goes through with the procedure, but my concern is for her. And if time runs out, before her appointment, I'd ask if she'd like to talk more and make those arrangements if so.

Brother, it doesn't matter what the law of man says in this matter. What matters is whether we tell them about Jesus.

Are you purposefully missing my point? It sure seems like it here. I was drawing out in the section of 1 Corinthians 5 that I quoted the very thing you said Christians ought not to do: judge the non-believer. He called NON-BELIEVERS immoral; he called them drunkards, and swindlers, and idolaters. What, then, of judging non-believers? Paul did this very thing in the passage I cited.

Sorry, I didn't get the shift from seeming to not agree with my position in your first statement, to now agreeing with me.

And then you say in a later response to me concerning that very passage that I felt you were using somehow to not agree with me, but now say I seem to be purposefully missing your point that you were agreeing with me:

Nope. You've spun the passage to make it appear to support your view, but Paul is clearly referring to two types of immoral person in the passage. See above.

Well yea, isn't that what we're both saying? That there are immoral people outside and inside the fellowhsip and Paul is giving us instruction as to how to deal with both. One is to be judged by us and the other not. Right?


God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Tenchi

So again, my apologies if I didn't speak clearly. I'm sorry. But my position is in full agreement with your understanding of what a baby is in God's sight and that we, as believers, should never harm the growing child even into the womb. My only disagreement is in the 'how' that we choose to deal with it out there in the world, where we're not supposed to judge.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Tenchi]

I see the act of an abortion also as killing a new human being. My point is that our seeing it that way is because we believe God and all that He has told us about life and how we have it.

Yes, right.

But I understand fully that my understanding comes from my knowledge of God and His desires for us. I also fully understand that theirs isn't.

"Theirs" being baby killers? They don't see human life in the way a Christian does? Yes, I'd agree that they don't. But this in no way means I ought to soften in my (and God's) view of their deeply abominable act of infanticide. I wouldn't watch an atheist rape someone in front of me and think, "He just doesn't see rape like I do. Ah, well." No, a moral person would intervene very aggressively to protect the object of the rapist's abuse, whatever the rapist thought about what he was doing.

And my premise in this post is to just point out that some of that comes from the fact that we teach evolutionary theory as being the answer for why we are here.

Yes, when an undirected, natural, mechanical process is responsible for creating human beings rather than God, human beings must necessarily lose their God-derived value - and the respect and care that such value deserves.

The evolutionary theory teaches that we people that we collectively call mankind, over a vast span of time, ultimately came from some pre-existing creature. That being the case, then logically we're just improved animals and I don't want my baby. It certainly makes it a lot easier when you don't see that baby as you and I do.

If there is no God, all things are permissible. Including baby murder. The male lion that kills and devours the offspring of a male competitor isn't a murderer; it's simply acting accordingly to instinct conferred by evolution. The shark that forcibly copulates with another shark isn't raping, it is simply acting according to instinct. So, too, the eagle that snatches a fish from the paws of a grizzly bear; or the rattle snake that bites a hiker on the leg; or the crocodile that tears a migrating wildebeest apart when the wildebeest ventures into it's part of the river. There is no moral content to the acts of these various animals; they are just doing on instinct what evolution has designed them to do. Can we not say the same about human beings, if they are products, too, of the evolutionary process rather than creations of God?

If there is no God, morality is mere social convention, preference, among some humans including honor-killing, female genital mutilation, sodomizing young boys, or sawing the heads off of infidels; or eating one's enemies; or starving to death millions of "peasants" for "the common good" of the State; or rounding up Jews and other "undesirables" and murdering them in concentration camps; and so on. Without God, calling your baby a "foetus," "clump of cells," or "parasite" also makes sense.

But neither do I find that God asks us to be belligerent or violent or abusive with language and name calling to try and stop it.

I don't know what you mean here, exactly, but the Christians is obliged to follow God's lead here and speak of baby murderer in the way God does, condemning it harshly, calling it the evil that it is. A good example of God's attitude toward a parent murdering their child is found in the following:

Leviticus 20:2-5
2 "You shall also say to the sons of Israel: 'Any man from the sons of Israel or from the aliens sojourning in Israel who gives any of his offspring to Molech, shall surely be put to death; the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
3 'I will also set My face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given some of his offspring to Molech, so as to defile My sanctuary and to profane My holy name.
4 'If the people of the land, however, should ever disregard that man when he gives any of his offspring to Molech, so as not to put him to death,
5 then I Myself will set My face against that man and against his family, and I will cut off from among their people both him and all those who play the harlot after him, by playing the harlot after Molech.

God so hated a parent that burned their child to death in sacrifice to Molech that He commanded they be executed for doing so. He called this vile practice of child sacrifice "profaning His name" and "defiling His sanctuary" and promised to "cut off" any who did such a thing as well as those who allowed it to go on unpunished.

Today, babies are sacrificed in the millions to the god of Self. And the One, True God hates it. Those who claim they are His children ought to hate it, too, resisting the spread of this abominable practice as much as they are able.

And you can be sure the blood of the millions of innocent babies murdered in the womb cries out to God for justice. And He will deliver it upon North America very soon, I think.

To be obnoxious and bullying to make a change in some law that isn't really going to stop people from having abortions anyway.

Again, if you witnessed a woman knifing her baby to death in front of you on the street, then cutting it up and putting its body parts in freezer bags to sell, would you be thinking, "Well, I'd better not say anything obnoxious to her. That would be hurtful. And I'd better not try to stop her because baby murders are still going to happen even I stop this one." Brother, if you did, you'd be just as evil as the baby butcher in front of you. That this terrible butchery goes on behind closed doors doesn't make it any less worthy of the response you'd rightly give it if it happened right in front of you.

God has tasked us with standing apart from the world and let it go on from evening unto morning until the last one. In the meantime tell everyone you can about my Son!!!!! If they believe, have them baptized!! THEN teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. That's how Jesus expects his Father's children to save those out of the world who will not face God's wrath of judgment.

Nope. This is cowardice, as far as I'm concerned. Let the baby murderers carry on unchallenged in their wicked practice? Absolutely not. Yes, preach the Gospel, but as His ambassadors of Light and Love, fiercely guard also God's little ones.

 

[miamited]

Hi Tenchi

"Theirs" being baby killers?

Yes, theirs being those who are ok with getting abortions, whether they are the ones who actually get the abortion or are just people who believe it's all ok as far as a moral issue. They don't see the implications of the issue as you and I do. And following Paul's example, I let them believe that.

Yes, when an undirected, natural, mechanical process is responsible for creating human beings rather than God, human beings must necessarily lose their God-derived value - and the respect and care that such value deserves.

Yes.

I don't know what you mean here, exactly, but the Christians is obliged to follow God's lead here and speak of baby murderer in the way God does, condemning it harshly, calling it the evil that it is. A good example of God's attitude toward a parent murdering their child is found in the following:

Well, I think that you and I see what God desires that we do about this matter a little differently. I think God wants us to be more like Jesus speaking to that woman caught in sin. Gentle, with love and compassion, but yet telling her that what she is doing is a sin. Not being belligerent and trying to present ourselves as holier than them. Not screaming in the streets and in our halls of government. Just gently, and with the same love that Jesus showed that woman who was also sinning, yet He spoke respectfully to her. He understood that she was just as much caught in the trap of sin as anyone of us. Thereby asking that the judge of her who was without sin be the first to start her stoning. No one qualified. And believe it or not, there's no one yet been born of women who does...except for Jesus.

So, I choose to strive to handle the matter as I believe Jesus would have if he walked up on some woman who was sitting in the lounge of an abortion clinic.

God bless,
Ted