[__ Science __ ] one reason that abortion is acceptable to us

[Riven]

Truth is, it's not anything that has anything to do with one's salvation. God doesn't care what we think about evolution. He cares if we love Him and love our neighbors. Do that, and you're assured of salvation.

Well, I get a lot of mixed messages from Christians. Many say good deeds aren't enough for one to make it to heaven. I dunno.

 

[miamited]

Hi Tenchi

Yes, I agree that we are killing/murdering/butchering/(fill in the blank) our unborn. You'll get no argument from me on that and I would never now encourage anyone to have one. Sadly I haven't always been born again. But I believe Jesus died for that. He took my place. Praise him!

I really don't have a problem that abortion is killing/murdering any more than I have a problem with any other killing. But I am concerned about how christians are perceived in the working out of the issue. We'll see. I think we're being more militant towards the sin and less charitable with the gospel. I've read the book. It doesn't get any better out there.

I think God has always known about all the killing and crime and violence and sex and drugs and rapes and beating and stealing that would ultimately be the end of a greedy hateful creature that living together for thousands of years. But what He asked of us was to tell them the gospel.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Tenchi]

Well, I get a lot of mixed messages from Christians. Many say good deeds aren't enough for one to make it to heaven. I dunno.

Unfortunately, not all who claim the title "Christian" are so, nor are all Christians equally well-informed or careful about the content of their faith. So, then, to circumvent the "mixed messages" you're getting from Christians, go to the source of their faith, the Bible. It is the Final Arbiter of what is and isn't "Christian."

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Hebrews 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Psalms 119.

 

[Tenchi]

Sadly I haven't always been born again. But I believe Jesus died for that. He took my place. Praise him!

Amen!

But I am concerned about how christians are perceived in the working out of the issue. We'll see. I think we're being more militant towards the sin and less charitable with the gospel.

I think one of the ways Christians yield the field of battle over the life of the unborn is by not responding with the moral outrage murdering a baby deserves. If you'd witnessed a woman knifing her newborn baby to death in the street and then pulling it apart and dropping its pieces into freezer bags to sell, what would you do? Would you approach her and with gentle, understanding tones tell her she probably shouldn't have destroyed her baby. Or would you cry out in horror and shock, maybe even vomiting in physical response to the heinousness of what she was doing?

Put the vile act of baby murder inside a building, though, dressing the baby murderers in lab coats and calling the tearing apart of an innocent little one in the womb a "medical procedure" and the natural, strong, negative response to such an act suddenly evaporates.

Yes, the Gospel is for everyone - even the baby murderer. But so long as Christians continue to adopt a "gracious" attitude toward those who murder their babies, giving the impression that such an act is not the monstrously evil thing that it actually is, it is certain the public attitude toward baby murder will continue to be passive, even sympathetic, toward the baby murderers.

 

[miamited]

Hi Tenchi

I think one of the ways Christians yield the field of battle over the life of the unborn is by not responding with the moral outrage murdering a baby deserves.

I disagree. I think it's getting plenty of moral outrage. The moral outrage has taken us to the place that Paul said we're not supposed to be. Basically, judge not those outside the fellowship, let God be their judge. You judge those who are among you and continue to sin. We are to tell them about Jesus!

Look, I get it! Abortion is a terrible thing and it's going to lead people straight to hell! But I've read the book and I know that such things are not only always going to be with us but are prophesied to get worse and worse like a flood until the end. That's in the book!!!!!

Our job is to live among that, sure we can make our understanding of things known, but to act as some militant force against the laws and workings or our government and condemn people for their sin???? God doesn't ask that of us and God has been clear that it ain't ever gonna fix it!!!! Tell them about Jesus!!!! With all the love and patience our little wicked stoney hearts can muster.

Yes, if abortion comes up as a ballot choice you can vote against it.
Yes, if someone asks you what your position is you can tell them yes or no and say, "look friend, do you know how we can fix the abortion issue? Tell them about Jesus!"
Yes, if someone who finds themself in that place, you can tell them about Jesus and offer his peace to them and let them know that you'll be praying that the Lord leads them to do the right thing in the matter. For wisdom. And if you have any resources to help, you can certainly offer those.

But this idea that the future of our nation is somehow based on how we're going to decide the abortion issue? Brother, I've read the book. It isn't going to get fixed on this side. It's only going to get worse.

So share the word. Provide help to anyone in crisis that you can. Let it be known that you don't approve. But let's turn down the temperature and clear the air. No one is saving America by making abortion illegal. And I think that anyone knows that if you make it illegal you're not going to stop it any more than we're able to stop the flood of drug use by making it illegal. People are going to SIN!!!!! And lost people are going to sin a whole lot!!!!!!

Tell them about Jesus. Vote your conscience in this wonderful nation where we do enjoy the greatest standard of living as compared to others. But we could be a nation that tells everyone about Jesus! Certainly those who believe in him and know what's at stake should be about throwing that life raft to all those drowning in the sea of sin that surrounds us. Don't beat them over the head with the law. That didn't work for God and it surely won't work for us. The law is there to convict us of our sin. God knows we're all going to break the law. What He wants to know now is how many of understand the consequences of that and will come back to Him through the gate that He has provided... Jesus.

But so long as Christians continue to adopt a "gracious" attitude toward those who murder their babies, giving the impression that such an act is not the monstrously evil thing that it actually is, it is certain the public attitude toward baby murder will continue to be passive, even sympathetic, toward the baby murderers.

Well, you do it your way and we'll see if Paul was telling the truth or not.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Barbarian]

Taking a human sperm cell or a human egg cell has no more ethical imiplications than taking any other body cell. Now, a fertilized egg, in which the genomes of the sperm and egg have fused to make a unique new individual, that's an issue. I happen to believe that God gives us an immortal soul at conception. I can't prove it, but I can prove we have a new, genetically unique living thing in existence at that point.

 

[Barbarian]

Our job is to live among that, sure we can make our understanding of things known, but to act as some militant force against the laws and workings or our government and condemn people for their sin???? God doesn't ask that of us and God has been clear that it ain't ever gonna fix it!!!! Tell them about Jesus!!!! With all the love and patience our little wicked stoney hearts can muster.

That's the thing. Since Roe v. Wade, the abortion rate has been falling for decades. How could that be. As you suggest, prayer and persuasion has changed hearts. Now Dobbs appears. And what happened? Voters in red states like Ohio and Kansas rush to put the right to an abortion into their state constitutions.

The net effect will be more abortions. God had it right, after all. He neither wants nor needs a government handout.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I get a lot of mixed messages from Christians. Many say good deeds aren't enough for one to make it to heaven. I dunno.

Here it is in a nutshell Riven....

FAITH WITHOUT GOOD DEEDS IS A DEAD FAITH.
GOOD DEEDS WITHOUT FAITH ARE DEAD DEEDS.

(you need both).

If you believe God exists and are willing to live according to His rules,
you will be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well the thing is, we have a mountain of evidence for evolution and no evidence for the biblical stories of Noah's Ark and the Garden of Eden. There's no evidence of snakes talking, nor virgin births, nor men walking on water, nor raising people from the dead, and so forth.

Now, if when we we die, we get to meet this creator, then it will not mean that science was wrong. Primarily because this deity kept itself absolutely hidden from the living. If it then condemns us to an eternity of torture and torment for not believing it existed or remaining indifferent to it's existence, it will demonstrate that it never was worthy of worship, and that it is nothing more than a cosmic dictator. A celestial Kim Jong Un, if you will.

You think every story in the bible is literal?
Why not just concentrate on whether or not there's a God.
If not, what created everything....
You make it too difficult.

 

[Riven]

You think every story in the bible is literal?
Why not just concentrate on whether or not there's a God.
If not, what created everything....
You make it too difficult.

I think that there are Christians that take every story in the bible literally. The thing is, I can't say they're wrong in doing that because there is no disclaimer saying which stories are to be taken literally and which ones are allegory.

I keep an open mind though.

 

[Barbarian]

If you believe God exists and are willing to live according to His rules,
you will be saved.

Specific instructions for how to be saved can be found in Matthew 25, starting at verse 31, I think...
Yes. Verses 31-46. Very clear and specific. How to spend eternity with Him. And how to go the other way, if you're determined to do that.

 

[Tenchi]

I disagree. I think it's getting plenty of moral outrage.

Which is, of course, why millions of babies have been murdered since abortion became legalized in North America.

The moral outrage has taken us to the place that Paul said we're not supposed to be. Basically, judge not those outside the fellowship, let God be their judge.

??? We aren't to judge those outside the Church like we judge those within it. Read 1 Corinthians 5.

1 Corinthians 5:9-10
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

Kinda' "judgy" of Paul, eh? Calling people outside the Church "immoral," naming some of them as "covetous," and "swindlers," and "idolaters." He even implies you'd have to leave the world entirely to avoid these immoral people. Where does he get off being so judgmental of unbelievers?

The fact of the matter is that no moral, thinking person can escape making judgments. If s/he doesn't judge between right and wrong, true or false, dangerous and harmless, right or left, and so on, s/he will quickly end up in serious trouble.

Look, I get it! Abortion is a terrible thing and it's going to lead people straight to hell! But I've read the book and I know that such things are not only always going to be with us but are prophesied to get worse and worse like a flood until the end. That's in the book!!!!!

It seems like you're arguing here:

1.) Things are bad.
2.) They have always been bad.
3.) Things will only get worse.
4.) Therefore, don't fuss about bad things.

If this "reasoning" had been followed in WWII, Nazism would have dominated Europe and perhaps even Russia (and who knows where else). Imagine, the police taking this view of crime! What a nightmare life would be for us all! If your wife was being mugged right in front of you, would you follow this line of reasoning and just stand back, without protest, and let your wife be mugged? I think not. Because it's immoral.

As has been said, "All that evil requires to flourish is for good men to do nothing." The Christian, then, who yields the field to evil because evil will always be and, eventually, will get worse has not read their Bible:

Ephesians 5:8-11
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;

Revelation 2:2-3
2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary.

Romans 12:9
9 ...Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.

Our job is to live among that, sure we can make our understanding of things known, but to act as some militant force against the laws and workings or our government and condemn people for their sin????

??? What? Where did I say anything like this? I made no mention of a "militant force against the laws and workings of the government." Nor did I say anything about condemning people. I wrote only of entirely appropriate moral outrage at the murder of unborn babies.

God doesn't ask that of us and God has been clear that it ain't ever gonna fix it!!!! Tell them about Jesus!!!! With all the love and patience our little wicked stoney hearts can muster.

??? I never said that resisting evil would "fix" it. Evil is at the heart of every human being (Jeremiah 17:9). But it is in the nature of being a moral person to resist evil nonetheless. The wicked and cowardly cringe before evil and let it have its way, excusing resistance to evil because evil is just too great to halt. Not one true prophet of God in the OT followed this view, many of them paying with their lives for standing against evil. And yet, God sent prophet after prophet to the wicked, calling out their wickedness and urging them to repent, knowing that evil would continue on regardless.

The Christian's "job" as a child of Light, is to stand against evil no matter the cost and no matter how futile it seems, calling the wicked to repentance.

You may have a "little wicked, stony heart" but my heart is deeply crushed by the knowledge that millions of babies have been murdered in the womb. It is because my heart is tender toward defenseless babies, not "stony" and "wicked", because I love vulnerable little ones as God does, that I feel proper moral outrage at anyone who would destroy them.

But this idea that the future of our nation is somehow based on how we're going to decide the abortion issue?

??? Again, what are you going on about? Who has said anything like what you've written here? I sure haven't.

Brother, I've read the book. It isn't going to get fixed on this side. It's only going to get worse.

This is absolutely no excuse to yield to evil. Quite the reverse.

So share the word. Provide help to anyone in crisis that you can. Let it be known that you don't approve. But let's turn down the temperature and clear the air.

No. I will not "turn down the temperature" on baby murder. It's out-and-out evil. Full stop.

And it's not that I don't approve of baby murder; it's that God HATES the slaughter of innocent little ones and calls it abominable evil. No one claiming to be one of His children can rightly hold baby murder in any lighter or lesser way.

And I think that anyone knows that if you make it illegal you're not going to stop it any more than we're able to stop the flood of drug use by making it illegal.

The goal isn't to stop evil entirely. The goal is to do all that is possible to do to hinder its expansion. Every person is going to die someday. Should we just not bother with medicine, then? Why fix the broken leg of a person who's going to die anyway someday? This is the sort of rotten logic you're using with the baby murder issue.

Vote your conscience in this wonderful nation where we do enjoy the greatest standard of living as compared to others.

Except the millions of babies butchered in their mother's womb...

But we could be a nation that tells everyone about Jesus! Certainly those who believe in him and know what's at stake should be about throwing that life raft to all those drowning in the sea of sin that surrounds us.

It doesn't follow that if Christians decry baby murder loudly and hotly that they can't therefore share the Gospel with the lost. These aren't mutually-exclusive things, as you seem to be suggesting.

Don't beat them over the head with the law. That didn't work for God and it surely won't work for us. The law is there to convict us of our sin. God knows we're all going to break the law.

??? It didn't "work" for God? I have no idea what you're talking about. Not one unrepentant sinner will get away with their sin. Not one. His law has always done exactly what He intended it to do: Define moral good and evil. The law of God was never meant to enable us to keep it. And so, though no one, save Christ, has ever kept His law perfectly, God has not failed in His purpose for giving the law. His will has, and is, and will always be done, just as He wants it to be done, an entire world of wickedness unable to prevent Him.

God never, ever, yields to sin even though we're all going to break His law and He knows it. God's holy justice is always satisfied, whether it be by Christ's atonement at Calvary, or by unending, divine retribution meted out upon the unrepentant wicked at the Final Judgment.

What He wants to know now is how many of understand the consequences of that and will come back to Him through the gate that He has provided... Jesus.

This has nothing, really, to do with giving the proper, God-honoring, moral outrage due baby murder. One can strongly resist destroying defenseless children and also share the Gospel. Again, these aren't mutually-exclusive things. In fact, the Gospel cannot be preached without the sinner understanding from what they are saved: eternal damnation as a consequence of their wickedness.

 

[Riven]

Two sides of the coin here with miamited and Tenchi . I can see both sides of the argument. Personally, I'm pro-life and have been since I learned of what abortions actually are. There are however, certain circumstances where I think it's the logical choice. For example, rape or incest. I couldn't bring myself to tell a woman that she has to carry a baby to term that was the result of either of these things.

 

[miamited]

Hi Tenchi

Which is, of course, why millions of babies have been murdered since abortion became legalized in North America.

Just because christians show moral outrage doesn't mean any laws will change.

I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

Just to add some context and offer you an explanation of what Paul is writing TO BELIEVERS in this passage, I'm going to expand your quote just a bit:

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

Paul begins this explanation about judging by telling THE BELIEVERS THAT HE IS WRITING TO, not the world at large, that they should not associate with sexually immoral people. Then he explains that he's not talking about the people outside of the body of believers "not at all meaning the people of the world..." He even adds, that if that's what he were speaking of we'd have to leave this world.

Then he continues in explaining that we are to judge those among us and not those who are not a part of us. That he is talking about those who are among who are claiming to be part of the church, one who claims to be a brother or sister, but is sexually immoral.

No, I'm correct that we aren't to judge those outside of our fellowship for such a sin as Paul is specifically talking about here of sexual immorality, but then goes and adds, greedy, idolatrous, slanderers, drunkards and swindlers. But it's all in reference to such people who are standing with the believers as a part of them...not the people outside who are not believers.

The rest of your post you seem to be taking my words as a personal attack on you. They aren't. I'm just describing the activities that some who claim to be a part of us are using in this war on abortion that they seem to think is the most important moral issue of the day.

And yes, per your own quote of the passage in Paul's letter to the Corinthians he explains it pretty much as I'm explaining whether or not God expects us to judge those who are not a part of us. But go with how you read it.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Tenchi]

Two sides of the coin here with @miamited and @Tenchi . I can see both sides of the argument. Personally, I'm pro-life and have been since I learned of what abortions actually are. There are however, certain circumstances where I think it's the logical choice. For example, rape or incest. I couldn't bring myself to tell a woman that she has to carry a baby to term that was the result of either of these things.

From God's perspective - which is the only perspective that truly matters - He "opens and shuts the womb," giving children always as a gift. When, then, a woman who has been sexually-assaulted is made pregnant by the event, knowing God has total control over pregnancy and intends every child He brings into being as a gift, the idea of destroying the child becomes deeply heinous. It is not the baby's fault it's father was a rapist. Why should the little one pay the ultimate price for the evil of someone else? And God intends to bring the good of a new, eternal life, made in His image, out of the horrible circumstance of rape. The pregnancy is intended by Him as a kindness and blessing, not insult to injury. How awful, then, that the baby is regarded as a penalty, its precious existence seen as an evil to be destroyed! How far from God's view of human life some have migrated!

 

[miamited]

From God's perspective - which is the only perspective that truly matters - He "opens and shuts the womb," giving children always as a gift. When, then, a woman who has been sexually-assaulted is made pregnant by the event, knowing God has total control over pregnancy and intends every child He brings into being as a gift, the idea of destroying the child becomes deeply heinous. It is not the baby's fault it's father was a rapist. Why should the little one pay the ultimate price for the evil of someone else? And God intends to bring the good of a new, eternal life, made in His image, out of the horrible circumstance of rape. The pregnancy is intended by Him as a kindness and blessing, not insult to injury. How awful, then, that the baby is regarded as a penalty, its precious existence seen as an evil to be destroyed! How far from God's view of human life some have migrated!

Hi Tenchi

Hope I'm not speaking out of turn here in your response to Riven. I see the act of an abortion also as killing a new human being. My point is that our seeing it that way is because we believe God and all that He has told us about life and how we have it. But I understand fully that my understanding comes from my knowledge of God and His desires for us. I also fully understand that theirs isn't. And my premise in this post is to just point out that some of that comes from the fact that we teach evolutionary theory as being the answer for why we are here.

The evolutionary theory teaches that we people that we collectively call mankind, over a vast span of time, ultimately came from some pre-existing creature. That being the case, then logically we're just improved animals and I don't want my baby. It certainly makes it a lot easier when you don't see that baby as you and I do.

But neither do I find that God asks us to be belligerent or violent or abusive with language and name calling to try and stop it.

Yes, I would not encourage anyone to have an abortion. But again, I've read the book. The reason that Paul and Peter and John all make comments about believers being separated FROM the world is because of these things. But none of them then follow up and tell us to go out and change it, in that manner. To be obnoxious and bullying to make a change in some law that isn't really going to stop people from having abortions anyway.

God has tasked us with standing apart from the world and let it go on from evening unto morning until the last one. In the meantime tell everyone you can about my Son!!!!! If they believe, have them baptized!! THEN teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. That's how Jesus expects his Father's children to save those out of the world who will not face God's wrath of judgment.

Oh, and please, I only say these things as overall attitudes of people and not any personal identification with you.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Riven]

Why should the little one pay the ultimate price for the evil of someone else?

Because the mother has already been through enough. Rape isn't love, and I don't think a woman should be forced to have to give birth to a child that was the result of rape.

 

[Tenchi]

Just because christians show moral outrage doesn't mean any laws will change.

I never said the two were related, or that the purpose of moral outrage at baby murder was the changing of law. The moral outrage ought to exist regardless of secular law; for secular law does not always properly reflect what is moral and immoral, what is good and evil.

Just to add some context and offer you an explanation of what Paul is writing TO BELIEVERS in this passage, I'm going to expand your quote just a bit:

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

Paul begins this explanation about judging by telling THE BELIEVERS THAT HE IS WRITING TO, not the world at large, that they should not associate with sexually immoral people.

Are you purposefully missing my point? It sure seems like it here. I was drawing out in the section of 1 Corinthians 5 that I quoted the very thing you said Christians ought not to do: judge the non-believer. He called NON-BELIEVERS immoral; he called them drunkards, and swindlers, and idolaters. What, then, of judging non-believers? Paul did this very thing in the passage I cited.

Then he explains that he's not talking about the people outside of the body of believers "not at all meaning the people of the world..." He even adds, that if that's what he were speaking of we'd have to leave this world.

Yikes. You've misunderstood Paul - purposefully or not - quite badly.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

It is quite clear, here, that the "covetous, swindlers and idolaters" in verse 10 are the "immoral people of the world." Paul clarifies that these immoral people are not who he meant when he'd written in the past to the Corinthian believers about associating with immoral people. No, Paul meant other immoral people within the Church. So, there are two sets of "immoral people" Paul has in view in these verses: the immoral within the Church and the immoral without the Church. Regardless, Paul is calling both sets of people - believers and non-believers - immoral. And in the section above, he is calling those "of this world" (and not of the Church) "covetous, swindlers and idolaters." This is made crystal clear when Paul wrote that such people were in such numbers in the world that they were unavoidable; one would have to l leave the world to escape them. And so, Paul is clearly making a moral assessment, a judgment, of those "of this world" describing them in very unflattering terms which you said no Christian should do.

11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

Here, Paul focuses, not on "the immoral people of this world," but upon the "immoral person" who is called a "brother" (in the faith). These immoral people, the ones in the Church, not the immoral ones in the world, Paul commanded the Corinthian believers to judge as immoral and remove from their community. So, again, Paul described two kinds of immoral person: the one in the Church and the one outside the Church. Both, Paul wrote, were immoral but only one ought to be dealt with by Christians in the manner Paul described. The immoral people in the world - the swindlers, covetous and idolaters - God would deal with in due time.

My point was that Paul called both kinds of person "immoral," which he did. But in order to do so, he had to make a moral judgment about those he called "immoral." Paul, then, disagrees with you about judging folk who are in the world.

The rest of your post you seem to be taking my words as a personal attack on you.

No, I didn't see your words as an attack; just addressing things I never wrote.

And yes, per your own quote of the passage in Paul's letter to the Corinthians he explains it pretty much as I'm explaining whether or not God expects us to judge those who are not a part of us. But go with how you read it.

Nope. You've spun the passage to make it appear to support your view, but Paul is clearly referring to two types of immoral person in the passage. See above.

 

[Tenchi]

Because the mother has already been through enough. Rape isn't love, and I don't think a woman should be forced to have to give birth to a child that was the result of rape.

Yes, I understand this is your view. Which is why I offered God's view in reply. Rape should never be compounded with murder - especially of an entirely innocent life.

 

[miamited]

Hi Tenchi

??? It didn't "work" for God? I have no idea what you're talking about. Not one unrepentant sinner will get away with their sin. Not one. His law has always done exactly what He intended it to do: Define moral good and evil. The law of God was never meant to enable us to keep it. And so, though no one, save Christ, has ever kept His law perfectly, God has not failed in His purpose for giving the law. His will has, and is, and will always be done, just as He wants it to be done, an entire world of wickedness unable to prevent Him.

Yes, it didn't work for God.

Now, understand that I know that everything works for the good of God and that He does know the end from the beginning and, therefore, always knew that Adam would put us in sin. Even though He told Adam how he could avoid that. That didn't work. Adam sinned. But God knew that He would. Because His word tells us that the plan for the sacrifice of His Son was already in the works on the day that he sinned. God knew how all of this was going to go from the first evening and morning unto the last.

But He worked to complete His great plan of salvation by raising up a nation of people to be His people. To do His bidding for Him among mankind upon the earth. It was a plan that everyone was going to be able to see laid out. He gave His people a law to follow and warned them of fairly nasty consequences if they didn't stick to it.

That didn't work.

But that's why we need to understand that making people obey some law is tough. Especially a whole group of hundreds of thousands and millions of people. God told Adam what he couldn't do...and Adam did it. God told Israel what they couldn't do... and most of Israel, minus God's ever-present remnant, went right out and did it. The prophets are full of warnings and judgments for their sin. Their kings were wicked and the religious leaders were wicked. They became as Sodom and Gomorrah according to God's claim.

So, I'm just saying, even God sets laws before us and we can't keep them. Even those of us who know Him and love Him struggle against them. So, how in the world do we expect those who don't know God and 'who' He is, to live by rules that we try to establish based on God and 'who' He is. I mean, you do realize "thou shalt not kill" is a part of God's law, right? You do realize that we have a much similar law in our country, right? Why do we have so much murder if making things illegal fixes the issue?

Ultimately, for the believer, it shouldn't really much matter that there even is a law regarding abortion. People are going to be more and more wicked until that last day. Paul even says, "...inventing ways to do evil." I mean Paul is telling a group of people whose idea of murder is that you stab someone. That there's going to come a time, through the inventing of evil ways, a day when someone with rapid fire weapon can kill 50 people in an instant. That's what's coming!!! Be on your guard!!! And it's going to get worse!!!!!!!!!!!!! People who maybe very, very rarely would consider doing something to end their pregnancy; that a day is coming that there will be thousands of them a day!!!!!!! That's what's coming! And it's going to get worse. And the mass of those people will be full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They will be gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.

Those are the people that Paul asks us to live apart from and not judge them.

So, tell them about Jesus and let the chips fall where they may on the legality of abortion. Yes, if you are asked or have an opportunity to vote against it, you are free to do that. But please understand, that's not going to fix the abortion issue.

God bless,
Ted