Christmas, Biblically sound, or Catholic baggage?

[farley]

Solo,

I think that I have a pretty good idea how most others in America celebrate Christmas...and it has very little to do with a babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

In Christ,

farley

 

[wavy]

Alrighty, solo, but I don't see how I lied about that scripture beginning with Torah...

And I fail to see how we can change the context from Torah to justification for doing Christmas, which truly is our own understanding.

We made up our minds, since we "didn't know" that his birthday was to be celebrated on the date of December 25th (or celebrated at all, for that matter)

We made up our minds that it was okay to practice paganism if it "honors Christ"...

Clear scripture proves that I said nothing wrong.

 

[Solo]

Solo,

I think that I have a pretty good idea how most others in America celebrate Christmas...and it has very little to do with a babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

In Christ,

farley

Then by your comments, I suspect that you believe that giving gifts is wrong, celebrating the birth of our Lord and Savior is wrong, spending a great time of family is wrong, Reading the scriptures as to the birth of the Savior is wrong, praying and giving God praise and glory for the redemption of mankind through the birth of his Son, Jesus is wrong, singing Hymns and Christmas carols is wrong, and the many other family traditions passed down from one generation to another is wrong.

I see. What would you rather have people do on December 25th?

 

[Servant_2000]

Whatever, He's the reason for the season.

May you enjoy this song..I know I do.

http://www.wrensworld.com/marydiduknow.htm

 

[farley]

Solo,

I'm sorry if I've struck a nerve. I'm just trying to share my view.

Decorating evergreen trees, drinking egg-nog, sitting on Santa's lap, asking "What do YOU want for Christmas?", nativity scenes setup in front yards behind a sleigh hooked to reindeer!!! C'mon!!!

Except for the giving of gifts to someONE (other than alms to the poor), everything you listed - reading scriptures, praying, praising, glorifing Christ, singing hymns, spending time with friends, family and loved ones would be wonderful ways to celebrate Christ, ANY day of the year!

We all can find the example of the three wise men in the Scriptures. They traveled a great distance, bearing material gifts for the Christ child. Sadly, most of the gifts that we give are to others, not Christ!

How does giving anything to someONE who, usually, has plenty: skateboards, iPods, jewelry, etc., equate to honoring "...thy LORD with thy substance..."?

We are pretty much left in the dark regarding celebrating Christ's birth, but Paul tells us the proper way to remember our Lord's death...

1 Corinthians 11 KJV
(23) For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
(24) And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
(25) After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
(26) For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.

...and when to do it...

Acts 20 KJV
(7) And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

As for what I would have people to do on December 25th, how about watch a lot of football on TV!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Windozer]

Sadly, most of the gifts that we give are to others, not Christ!

Could that be because the things (gifts) we give others would not appeal to Jesus?
Jesus wants our garbage, (your junk) So that he can give us some special gifts. He has things to give us that we did/do not know existed.

Enjoy your journey. Smell some of the roses along the way.

Merry Christmas.

 

[Vic C.]

Farley, you quoted a lot of scripture, but you neglected to quote this one:

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Jer 10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Personally, I am torn between what this Holiday represents and what is was meant to represent. It breaks my heart to see many people celebrate this day, people who aren't even believers that is. It was an attempt to incorporate pagan Roman festivals with the newly adopted Roman Empire religion... Christianity. Also note that for the first 300+ years of Christianity, there was no celebrating of His birth, since no one knew the exact date. I think we can determine from scripture that it was sometime in the spring.

First and foremost, I don't see a command telling us we should be celebrating His birthday. I see all of the OT feasts and Holy convocations as God-ordained. Though I do celebrate, I keep it at a minimum. A lighted cross and a star in my window is all I have. I use the cross because it is almost "universally" identified with Christ. Yes I know some skeptics will say the cross has it's roots in paganism... so be it. It is still the one symbol that identifies itself with Jesus.

I do give gifts, but they are usually practical and something people need. I'm not sure if Jesus ever had a need for a portable DVD player or a $500.00 PC. LOL

I try and live each day commemorating the birth, life death and resurrection of our Master. It's a shame that some so-called believers only go the church for corporate worship two days out of the year.

 

[thessalonian]

Certainly, but you're not going to like it. We're going to have to deal with Mithra again

Sometime around the middle of the fourth century AD. Previous to that, the Romans celebrated a festival called Saturnalia dedicated to the god Saturn. Also, this same date was the celebrated birth of Mithra.

When Christianity was introduced and began to be accepted by the masses, The church made an effort to abolish the pagan and substitute their version of the holy. They simply chose to exchange this date to celebrate the birth of Christ. The festivities and tradition continued but under a new name. The church knew that many would rebel against this 'new' religion if it offered the immediate destruction of everything that the people were use to, so they slowly but surely began to replace pagan festivals with 'Christian' names. Of course Christ and God had absolutely NOTHING to do with these changes.

Not much different than many of the Catholic traditions. Carry overs from previous pagan ritual and ceremony. The indication is that the RC didn't start over with Christ as their Savior, the Son of God, they simply added Christ to much of their previous pagan ritual. Christmas is but another example of this evolving 'new' religion.

And this was nothing new to those in Rome. They had incorporated many many religions into their society. As they gained more and more territory in the known world, much of the religion of those that they conquered was brought back to the capitol and integrated into their worship. Christ was just another one of these. And as most of the others, they didn't change their religion completely, they just added to what they already had. I guess this was easier than 'starting over'.

Yada, yada, yada. So what year did this take place? I've heard this nonsense before. It fits your biggotry. You haven't ever set foot in a Catholic Church or heard a homily on Christmass or read what many popes have had to say on Christimass. You don't even believe Christ was God. I hate to tell you who is the pagan.

 

[cj]

Christmass is not about the date.

You think so huh?

So what you're sying is that we can change the date from year to year and everything would be cool with everybody.



Give me a break.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

At the risk of butting heads again Free, I've gotta say that your statement below is really very superficial at best.

Whether or not Christ's birth was the 25th of December is irrelevant. The fact is that that was the day chosen to remember it.

Crock.

Firstly, nothing is "irrelevant" to God.

A person is either for God or against God. No gray, no inbetween, no irrelevant actions/activities/participation.

Everything counts,... punto finale.

Secondly,...... the fact that it was choosen? By who pray tell?

God? Or men?

And why?

A very specific and detailed-oriented God did not see it necessary to give us a specific date, yet "choosing men" thought it necessary.

And not just necessary to attempt to push this on God, but also to attempt to find some sort of righteous justification in doing so.

That Dec. 25th was a pagan day of celebration is of importance, but not for the erroneous reasons Imagican gives.

Hmmm,... I'm not so sure about that.

It is about "redeeming the time" (Eph. 5:16).

Baloney.

Christmas trees and all the other foolishness we have come to associate with this corruption is "redeeming the time"? Paul would laugh in your face. Or maybe cry.

Fact is, the scripture is very specific about what redeeming the time is and there is no mention of this false and wicked tradition.

There is nothing wrong with making holy what is not, turning a pagan celebration into a celebration of the birth of our Lord and God. Any link between Mithraism and Christianity is pure speculation.

Nothing "wrong" with "making" holy what is not holy?

Are you for real?

Who has "made" this wickedness "holy",..... men,..... because they "choose" to?


Free? What does "born-again mean?

What is it to be resurrected?

Believers are unable to "make" their daily living as a born-again, resurrected person a holy daily living, but you proffer here that men can "make" that which is unholy holy.

This is the ridiculousness of Christianity at its best/worse.

The interesting thing is that it is increasingly becoming unredeemed, being turned once again into a pagan celebration of materialism and consumerism.

Just as a dog returns to its vomit, a hog to the muck.

You know the tree by its fruit.

Birds of a feather flock together (not scripture, but I'm sure if I look hard enough I can find the equivalent).


How much more do you want from God regarding the opening of your eyes Free?

"Christmas" is simply expressing its innate corruption.

I strongly suggest, Imagican, that you quit trying to prove orthodox Christian belief and practice wrong, especially by your continual appeal to non-Christian sources.

"Orthodox",.... you're kidding right? Ain't nothing orthodox about Christmas Free.

Of course these sources are going to claim such-and-such about Christianity. You would do well to search inside and find out why you dislike Christ's Church so strongly. Stick to Scripture.

No problem, for the scriptures are absolutely and completely against Christianity.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Have a merry Christmas Imagican. :fadein:

Impossible, according to God's reality of what is merry.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

I fail to see how Ephesians 5:16 has anything to do with this, and I fail to see how "nothing is wrong with making holy what is not" is supported anywhere in the bible...

I see the just the opposite.

Proof that hope is yet alive and well.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Then by your comments, I suspect that you believe that giving gifts is wrong, celebrating the birth of our Lord and Savior is wrong, spending a great time of family is wrong, Reading the scriptures as to the birth of the Savior is wrong, praying and giving God praise and glory for the redemption of mankind through the birth of his Son, Jesus is wrong, singing Hymns and Christmas carols is wrong, and the many other family traditions passed down from one generation to another is wrong.

Its not a matter of wrong or right Solo, but life or death.

I see. What would you rather have people do on December 25th?

Exactly what they should do on every other day of the year.

And for examples of what this is,.... see the first section of your post.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

Personally, I am torn.......

The bible is clear,..... when in doubt simply stand and wait on the Lord.

No matter if it takes a minute or a thousand years.


In love,
cj

 

[thessalonian]

Christmass is not about the date.

You think so huh?

So what you're sying is that we can change the date from year to year and everything would be cool with everybody.



Give me a break.


In love,
cj

I don't tell you you have to celebrate it on the 25th. How do you propose going about changing it? Do you feel you have the individaul power to change something so engrained in society? If it turned out it was in June sometime it would not change my faith in Christ at all. The Catholic Church would not fall as so many of you hope either. We celebrate the birth of the God of the universe. What day we celebrate it on has little importance. We as a society celebrate it on the 25th of december. Noone tells you you have to celebrate it so don't and be happy. I am Catholic and choose to celebrate it. Why do you think you need to put that down, ridicule and distort it?

 

[cj]

I don't tell you you have to celebrate it on the 25th. How do you propose going about changing it? Do you feel you have the individaul power to change something so engrained in society? If it turned out it was in June sometime it would not change my faith in Christ at all. The Catholic Church would not fall as so many of you hope either. We celebrate the birth of the God of the universe. What day we celebrate it on has little importance. We as a society celebrate it on the 25th of december. Noone tells you you have to celebrate it so don't and be happy. I am Catholic and choose to celebrate it. Why do you think you need to put that down, ridicule and distort it?

The simple answer,.... your salvation.

Fact is, the altar of Christmas you worship at is a great hinderance to your going on with the Lord.


In love,
cj

 

[Vic C.]

Are you for real?

cj, I think Free is for real. He is expressing his opinion. No need to attack him personally. Lets stick to debating the issue at hand and refrain from personal attacks please. Thanks.

Personally, I am torn.......

The bible is clear,..... when in doubt simply stand and wait on the Lord.

No matter if it takes a minute or a thousand years.

In love,
cj

What I posted was the struggles and concerns I have for this Holiday. They are things I need to pray about. With 48+ years under my belt and the customs of this Holiday slowly taking it's toll on me and my beliefs, one should understand me being torn over it. The Holy Spirit is convicting me; I am not in the position to convict others for what they believe or do not believe about Christmas. I am only expressing my doubts, others will believe what they want to believe. I'm fine with that.

What I am not fine with is that many people emphasize all the traditions that go along with celebrating the birth of Jesus, while the true Spirit of His birth. life, death and resurrection get glossed over or go unchecked.

 

[Imagican]

Amen Vic, and there's a 'reason' for this change in your understanding. That certainly means more than trying to be a 'man pleaser'.

Thess,

The Catholic Church openly credits itself with the creation of the 'Christ Mass'. The EXACT year is NOT known by me or by any proof of history that we know of. But, that it was created by the Catholics to try and eliminate that which was named and celebrated before Christ is history. Somewhere around the middle of the forth century is most likely since during this time period are our first records of the holiday being converted over into Catholicism.

We are to celebrate Christ and live in Him EVERYDAY. I don't personally believe that such a vain interpretation as we have created would in any way 'please' Christ or God any more than carving statues of either of them and worshipping them would. I see little, if any, love of Christ or God involved in this modern tradition that would eliminate even His name if it were possible. It teaches as much or more about Santa Clause and the 'Grinch' as it does Christs' birth.

I know guys, that we have come to 'love' this date and tradition. No matter how wrong or misrepresented, traditions have a way of endearing us to them. This should be a pretty fair warning that there is something deeper than a love of God or Christ involved with their being perpetuated. I can envision satan laughing with glee as he witnesses the hustle and bustle of man trying to fulfill this holiday each year. I'm quite sure that he revels in the suicides and disappointments encountered by society each year as the man-made holiday of Christs' birth is twisted into nothing more than a business venture and a 'reason to party'.

You know satan has a way of offering things that 'look' good or 'sound' good in order to introduce them into the hearts of men. The problem is that we often have an inability to look far enough into the future to see what their 'real' purpose is. I'm quite sure that Adam and Eve would have ignored the 'fruit' if they had been able to 'see' the future effects of it's eating. Unfortunately we, as they, often accept without understanding. This CAN'T be a 'good' thing for we are commanded to discern the things that we accept or deny according to the Word and Spirit. And NO, I don't mean the 'spirits' that are often so closely related in the theme of this holiday.

So, if we love Christ our Spiritual instinct should be to 'love' Him EVERYDAY. NOT to pick 'one' specific day of the year to 'remember His birth', but live 'in' Him EVERYDAY. And guys, regardless of what we have been taught by 'man', Christ's death was of much more importance than His birth. And for this reason we were probably NOT given His birth date. His birthdate would have signified the 'flesh' more so than the Spirit of Christ, for Christ was 'man' also. If He had already been with God since the creation of 'man', then His physical birth was of little importance compared to His death and resurrection that 'saved' the world.

And before I get bombarded for saying that His death was or more importance than His birth, please take into consideration how little we know of His childhood. Obviously this wasn't near as important as His ministry, death, and resurrection.

 

[cj]

Are you for real?

cj, I think Free is for real. He is expressing his opinion. No need to attack him personally. Lets stick to debating the issue at hand and refrain from personal attacks please. Thanks.

Just a term of endearment Vic. Nothing personal, as I'm well aware that Free is real.

But I'll try a "Have you thought it through" approach next time.

I guess I'm still just an excitable kid at heart.

What I posted was the struggles and concerns I have for this Holiday. They are things I need to pray about. With 48+ years under my belt and the customs of this Holiday slowly taking it's toll on me and my beliefs, one should understand me being torn over it.

Absolutely, hence no long sermon, just a brief reality check that all can use.

The Holy Spirit is convicting me; I am not in the position to convict others for what they believe or do not believe about Christmas. I am only expressing my doubts, others will believe what they want to believe. I'm fine with that.

And God gave us each other as helps to each other. And we should be fine with this also.

What I am not fine with is that many people emphasize all the traditions that go along with celebrating the birth of Jesus, while the true Spirit of His birth. life, death and resurrection get glossed over or go unchecked.

Its the way of the world.

Resurrection life expressed is the best,.... and only way..... to express the true Spirit.


Ask yourself, how much closer to God has Christmas served to bring you in the 48 years you mentioned above?


The expression of the Spirit is found in our being brought closer to God.


In love,
cj

 

[thessalonian]

I don't tell you you have to celebrate it on the 25th. How do you propose going about changing it? Do you feel you have the individaul power to change something so engrained in society? If it turned out it was in June sometime it would not change my faith in Christ at all. The Catholic Church would not fall as so many of you hope either. We celebrate the birth of the God of the universe. What day we celebrate it on has little importance. We as a society celebrate it on the 25th of december. Noone tells you you have to celebrate it so don't and be happy. I am Catholic and choose to celebrate it. Why do you think you need to put that down, ridicule and distort it?

The simple answer,.... your salvation.

Fact is, the altar of Christmas you worship at is a great hinderance to your going on with the Lord.


In love,


cj

: : I'm going to hell because I celebrate the birth of the incarnate God on Dec 25th. That's a hinderance? MERRY CHRISTMASS CJ!

I don't worship an altar of Christmass by the way. Very few of your "facts" are 'facts". Thanks for caring though. Peace.