Bible Study Church Women Are to Be Well Behaved.

[for_his_glory]

Prophecy is not always genuine. It can easily sound interesting, but is most often just human ambition. Vague at best. The Holy Spirit is most grieved when He is falsely misrepresented, even in sincerity.

And, since prophecy can alwsys be time tested, it is always about the future.

I agree that not all prophecy given is genuine as I have heard many that just spoke for the sake of speaking and was not given by the Holy Spirit. This does grieve the Holy Spirit.

Prophecy is not always about the future as in end time events. So you refute what Paul wrote in 1Cor 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

 

[for_his_glory]

You have yet to make 1 Tim 2:11-14 so as to allow women to lead men.

I think I have in post # 44, 46 and 55.

Why would God have called, equipped and anointed me to teach His word in the Church services during my time working in the prison ministry where many men gave their lives to the Lord and for that matter even teaching His word here in the forums. It's no longer I that lives, but Christ who lives in me working in me and through me to take His Gospel out into the world.

 

[for_his_glory]

OH, I see you said ... "I never said I was a prophet, but that God has used me to give His prophecy over the church a few times."
I defined prophet to mean .. any one that had a message from God at any time was a prophet. Sorry, if I miscommunicated based on that assumption.

No problem, we're good.

 

[for_his_glory]

Do you hear an audible voice from the Holy Spirit?

Yes, just like others that are opened to hear Him speak to them. Example is when I am given specific instruction in what God wants me to speak to others as there is nothing I can do on my own apart from the Holy Spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

Excellent question. How does one know it is God speaking (excluding scripture) or it's one own thoughts?
Like, if God gave me a message in a dream I would need some sort of validation.

We are to test the spirits that speak as not all are that of the Holy Spirit, 1 John 4:1-6.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thanks for straightening that out.

Please tell me, how do you personally know when another person speaking what appears to be a prophetic word is being accurate and correct?

1 John 4:1-6 test the spirits that speak. You do not know me or what my relationship with the Lord is on a Spiritual level as it grows stronger everyday as I draw into Him and know the Shepard's voice.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We are to test the spirits that speak as not all are that of the Holy Spirit, 1 John 4:1-6.

I agree to this general statement. But what is the application of 1 John 4:1-6 in deciding whether or not I had a dream that was truly the instructions from God? (this is a hypothetical query) I grant I have the word of God and if the dream said I was to kill everyone in a theater I would know it to be false. But I, if using the word of God, would not marry a prostitute ... yet I believe someone in the old testament was told to do so .... so, one has little idea how to "test" the spirits.

Anyways, I think I'm rambling.

 

[Edward]

Excellent question. How does one know it is God speaking (excluding scripture) or it's one own thoughts?
Like, if God gave me a message in a dream I would need some sort of validation.

I'm no Prophet. Nor do I play one on TV. But I can hear the still small voice of God. I have also heard the audible voice of God one time. I can say that God always confirms Himself to you. Either internally, or external circumstance will confirm Him. I was astonished to realize that, the one time I got to hear the audible voice of God...that I recognized His voice. Even though I have no recollection of ever having heard His voice before...there was no doubt who was speaking.

 

[Fastfredy0]

IMO Joel Osteen is just another money grabbing bandwagon minister who lives rich on the poor mans money. Don't care much for many TV Evangelist.

LOL... agreed ... that's why I used him in my example of someone that 'edifies' and 'encourages' others but IS NOT A PROPHET.

Smith's Bible Dictionary - Prophet
Signifies an inspired person, an announcer of the words of another, not from his own influence and will, Exodus 7:1; 4:16, to foretell the future and secret events, and who reveal the will of God.

Agreed ... it's when you get into the nitty gritty that the definition becomes cloudy. For example, you said you are not a prophet, yet you fulfilled the definition we agreed upon. You "reveal the will of God" to someone in church I believe you said. So either you are a prophet or the definition needs fine tuning.
Aside: May be getting to point of where to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's ... not important

 

[Fastfredy0]

think I have in post # 44, 46 and 55.

Re: Exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:11-14
Ah, only thing you said was: "In 1 Timothy 2 Paul was addressing a particular problem specific to the church at Ephesus in which false teaching was resulting in inappropriate behavior."
But I will drop the question.

Why would God have called, equipped and anointed me to teach His word in the Church services during my time working in the prison ministry where many men gave their lives to the Lord and for that matter even teaching His word here in the forums.

Sounds like you have done some great stuff.

 

[stovebolts]

Re: Exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:11-14
Ah, only thing you said was: "In 1 Timothy 2 Paul was addressing a particular problem specific to the church at Ephesus in which false teaching was resulting in inappropriate behavior."
But I will drop the question.

Hi Freddy,
We don’t get to discuss things often, but I would appreciate some friendly dialog.

Just to set a foundation, do you believe scripture is cut and dry, or do you believe we need to use some discernment both reading scripture and applying it? I personally see scripture as an act of discernment where there are many exceptions to the “rules”.

With this in mind, you and Deb both have a view on Joel Osteen I don’t fully share. (one of his books got me out of a two year depression). That being said, who would you think is more in line with what you believe to be the truth? Would it be Joel, or Deb?

Or maybe we ask it this way. If a woman is more qualified than a man, should she teach?

If we read the passage in 1Timothy as a dry reading, then Deb has no place to correct what she believes are Joel’s errors in scripture. She is to remain silent, even on this site.

Tell me, is it good to do good on the Sabbath? I say stretch out your hand to the one with the withered hand.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, after a few preliminary questions, the default explanation is that the person claiming to prophesy is "fully committed in my heart to serving and submitting to God by releasing His Word." Or some such go to explanation.

These days as the Young Church continues conforming to the world's mindset, they think if anything can be verbalized, even agreed upon, and even nicely chatted about, then it has to be true. That is why they compulsively explain so many things when together over coffee and muffins. They all think like little muffins. They avoid the tough issues until the issues are unavoidably in their face, and then they throw up their emotions and walk away.

Lol.

Sorry, but I do not take a some such approach to explaining scripture but only give that of what has already been written in the full context when needed. Yes, I am very commited in my heart to serving the Lord and have submitted myself to the Lord and walking in His Spirit. This is why I try to show grace to you instead of getting in the flesh and tearing you a new one.

I'm 66 and forty years into studying the word of God so I am not a part of the so called "Young Church". I might have to live in this world, but am not a part of the worldly ways that lead to ones destruction. There are those who play church and those who are the true Church being the body of Christ with He being the head of the body not having four walls of separation. There are no denominations/non-denominations in the body of Christ, but only those who are Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit that seek out that personal relationship with Christ.

It would do you well to seek out your personal relationship with Christ as you show no fruits of the Spirit and instead of lifting up and edifying one another you take pleasure in tearing others down. Do you really believe you are glorifying God in what you speak in judgement against others that you do not even know!!!

 

[for_his_glory]

I agree to this general statement. But what is the application of 1 John 4:1-6 in deciding whether or not I had a dream that was truly the instructions from God? (this is a hypothetical query) I grant I have the word of God and if the dream said I was to kill everyone in a theater I would know it to be false. But I, if using the word of God, would not marry a prostitute ... yet I believe someone in the old testament was told to do so .... so, one has little idea how to "test" the spirits.

Anyways, I think I'm rambling.

Since God does speak to others in dreams then it is the same if God is giving you instruction or was it a bad pizza you ate for supper. We have to learn to test the spirits whether it be dreams or thoughts to know for a surety that it is God speaking to us.

 

[Jacob62]

Since God does speak to others in dreams then it is the same if God is giving you instruction or was it a bad pizza you ate for supper. We have to learn to test the spirits whether it be dreams or thoughts to know for a surety that it is God speaking to us.

I see you cannot describe the specific means of testing a spirit, but rather speak vague generalities.

God Bless your best response.

 

[Jacob62]

Sorry, but I do not take a some such approach to explaining scripture but only give that of what has already been written in the full context when needed. Yes, I am very commited in my heart to serving the Lord and have submitted myself to the Lord and walking in His Spirit. This is why I try to show grace to you instead of getting in the flesh and tearing you a new one.

I'm 66 and forty years into studying the word of God so I am not a part of the so called "Young Church". I might have to live in this world, but am not a part of the worldly ways that lead to ones destruction. There are those who play church and those who are the true Church being the body of Christ with He being the head of the body not having four walls of separation. There are no denominations/non-denominations in the body of Christ, but only those who are Spiritually born again from above and indwelled with the Holy Spirit that seek out that personal relationship with Christ.

It would do you well to seek out your personal relationship with Christ as you show no fruits of the Spirit and instead of lifting up and edifying one another you take pleasure in tearing others down. Do you really believe you are glorifying God in what you speak in judgement against others that you do not even know!!!

I doubt any such tearing could be done given the emotional fragility behind it. Lol. Remember, words are not action.

The Pentecostals who cannot replicate even one feature of Acts Ch.2 have thereby falsely labeled themselves. As such, their ideologies must be of the same low validity. Agreed? Pure logic, no need for emotional painting.

Blessings.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Just to set a foundation, do you believe scripture is cut and dry, or do you believe we need to use some discernment both reading scripture and applying it? I personally see scripture as an act of discernment where there are many exceptions to the “rules”.

Cut and dry short answer: It depends, which is to say we need discernment. That is not to say there are not rules for discernment, said rules (hermenutics) being fallible as they are set by man to a large degree; but that seems to be the best we've got.
Example:

• This genre’s texts, like Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and James, contain short sayings of generalized approaches to life, story in generality. They often are not designed to be understood as true in every particular moment.
• I also do not use, for the most part, narrative texts to determine doctrine . I.E. Sam did "X" so I can do "X"
• Deut. 29:29 comes into play

With this in mind, you and Deb both have a view on Joel Osteen I don’t fully share. (one of his books got me out of a two year depression). That being said, who would you think is more in line with what you believe to be the truth? Would it be Joel, or Deb?

I am glad for you that Joel was of benefit to you. But bad people can cause good things to happen (Genesis 50:20) so this information, does not persuade me to think much of the man.

Joel Osteen Interview with

People I trust say he's a heretic and I'm not a Prosperity Gospel adherent.

Or maybe we ask it this way. If a woman is more qualified than a man, should she teach?

The most qualified man or woman should teach, all other things being equal. But, in regards to theology I believe the revelation of the Bible which says (via my interpretation and I am fallible): 11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with all submissiveness. 12 I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet [in the congregation]. 13 For Adam was formed first [by God from the earth], then Eve; 14 and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin.
So, as I understand things, God has disqualified her to teach to some extent. He even gave a reason in verse 14 for disqualification.

That being said, I find for_his_glory theological knowledge to be superior to most men. I would not attend a church she preached at, though put a gun to my head and say I must go to a church where she is pastor of Osteen I pick her. But that is church, I do not have the same obsession in regards to leading men in this forum.
Apologies to for_his_glory for putting her on the spot. I respect you and love you as you are IN CHRIST. I am fallible, maybe I am wrong. This is my truth and reasoning.

Tell me, is it good to do good on the Sabbath? I say stretch out your hand to the one with the withered hand.

Yes. It is good to do good at any time. This is self attesting as the definition of good is to do the will of God. God says, "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man". Thus I think it is 'good' to do what He says.

 

[stovebolts]

Cut and dry short answer: It depends, which is to say we need discernment. That is not to say there are not rules for discernment, said rules (hermenutics) being fallible as they are set by man to a large degree; but that seems to be the best we've got.
Example:

Very good answer in my opinion. It shows your wisdom.

I am glad for you that Joel was of benefit to you. But bad people can cause good things to happen (Genesis 50:20) so this information, does not persuade me to think much of the man.

Aren’t we all bad? Perhaps it’s all a matter of emphasis and perspective? After all, some call OSAS heretical. While I do not ascribe to Joel’s teaching, God did use Joel in my recovery. I will give credit where credit is due and share truth from wherever I find it.

That being said, I find @for_his_glory theological knowledge to be superior to most men.

Yes indeed. I am thankful and blessed to have her as an Admin on this site.

The most qualified man or woman should teach,

And for me, this strikes at the heart of the matter. I do hope I can tie this in without it sounding awkward and not getting verbose.

13 For Adam was formed first [by God from the earth], then Eve; 14 and it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin.

There is so much in Jewish writings, it is very hard to pinpoint his deeper understanding of this verse. We can get some insight as Paul was under , Gamaliel, who was the grandson of the infamous Hillel. Side note, Hillel was more in line with Jesus than Shamia with the exception of divorce. So we can dig a bit on Hillel teaching on these passages to get a better understanding of Paul’s theology.

What we do know is this. Paul writes elsewhere that Adam willfully disobeyed, but Eve was deceived. This indicates that Adam knowingly ate when he knew better. I do believe it is safe to assume that the men who were teaching in Corinth knew the truth, but Paul understands how men work. As an example, Solomon had many wives and was led astray. He even had his own children offered in the fire to Chemosh.

I do not know why men are like this, but we are, and it is from this perspective I believe Paul is writing from.

I do not believe Paul is making a broad stroke of the brush here. I believe, in part that Paul is saying something to this accord. A woman in error, much like Eve should not have authority over a man, like Adam who knows better. Why? Because she would teach him the wrong thing... As men, we need to be the spiritual leaders in our homes, and in our churches.

Have you seen the wild kingdom documentaries on the Savanah where the Lions lay around while the lionesses do all the work? I think nature is trying to tell us something. Some men will be lazy if the woman continues to do the work.

sadly, this is true for many homes. Men don’t read their Bibles, but women do. Men need to step up.

 

[daninthelionsden]

Very good answer in my opinion. It shows your wisdom.

Aren’t we all bad? Perhaps it’s all a matter of emphasis and perspective? After all, some call OSAS heretical. While I do not ascribe to Joel’s teaching, God did use Joel in my recovery. I will give credit where credit is due and share truth from wherever I find it.



Yes indeed. I am thankful and blessed to have her as an Admin on this site.



And for me, this strikes at the heart of the matter. I do hope I can tie this in without it sounding awkward and not getting verbose.



There is so much in Jewish writings, it is very hard to pinpoint his deeper understanding of this verse. We can get some insight as Paul was under , Gamaliel, who was the grandson of the infamous Hillel. Side note, Hillel was more in line with Jesus than Shamia with the exception of divorce. So we can dig a bit on Hillel teaching on these passages to get a better understanding of Paul’s theology.

What we do know is this. Paul writes elsewhere that Adam willfully disobeyed, but Eve was deceived. This indicates that Adam knowingly ate when he knew better. I do believe it is safe to assume that the men who were teaching in Corinth knew the truth, but Paul understands how men work. As an example, Solomon had many wives and was led astray. He even had his own children offered in the fire to Chemosh.

I do not know why men are like this, but we are, and it is from this perspective I believe Paul is writing from.

I do not believe Paul is making a broad stroke of the brush here. I believe, in part that Paul is saying something to this accord. A woman in error, much like Eve should not have authority over a man, like Adam who knows better. Why? Because she would teach him the wrong thing... As men, we need to be the spiritual leaders in our homes, and in our churches.

Have you seen the wild kingdom documentaries on the Savanah where the Lions lay around while the lionesses do all the work? I think nature is trying to tell us something. Some men will be lazy if the woman continues to do the work.

sadly, this is true for many homes. Men don’t read their Bibles, but women do. Men need to step up.

Yes. If it is in God's plan for our lives, He can use all things for our benefit. Even things meant for evil against us can be usurped by God for our good.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Have you seen the wild kingdom documentaries on the Savanah where the Lions lay around while the lionesses do all the work? I think nature is trying to tell us something. Some men will be lazy if the woman continues to do the work.

I don't use nature to tell me about human behavior. I believe male alligators eat their young.
I also have no clue as to the logic of the reason in verse 1 Tim. 2:14 why God doesn't want women teaching.

sadly, this is true for many homes. Men don’t read their Bibles, but women do. Men need to step up.

Agreed. I look at church attendance and extrapolate to conclude there will be more women in heaven than men.

Finally, I have a rule in my home. THERE IS NOTHING THAT I CAN'T VETO when it comes to decisions my wife and I discuss. That being said, I have never been brave enough to invoke my VETO RIGHT.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I just wonder if the verses were intended for women back in those days.

Some verses cause me to question whether ALL of the bible is the 100% inspired word of God.

I would say that Paul is addressing a people in a particular culture with particular habits and beliefs and Paul didn't want the early Church to have disruptions. It was culture. Also, the Church was to separate itself from the worldly systems and the pagans adorned themselves with jewelry and fancy clothes.

Nothing wrong with looking nice but don't wear a formal dress to church. IMO that draws attention to oneself and away from more important matters. A humble heart seeks to be invisible and not flaunt. Just my opinion.

Can women teach men? Well, yes. I had women teachers from kindergarten through to my Master's degree program. I have had more women teachers then men. And I learned a lot from them. So yes they can teach. And IMO, they should. They have a gift from God and should exercise it.

But should they be a preacher? Well, many are. I"m not going to judge. I'm not a legalist. If you don't like women teaching men, don't go to those churches. And if you're not loving God and your neighbor, if you're not helping the poor, orphans, widows, then hush it up. God says a lot in His word and he's commanded us in the above.

But as always, I could be wrong. I'm probably not too far off I'll bet. ;)