Colossians 2

[jocor]

Actually the only reason Israel became a peculiar treasure above all nations is because Jesus was of Israel. From the beginning Israel has born the scars of their consistent failure to walk in God's ways.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then you shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

 

[Deborah13]

To use your driving analogy, CO has speed limit laws. If you obey them, then you are not "under the law". When you disobey and speed, you place yourself under its penalty. However, the fact that you don't speed does not mean that the speed limit law no longer exists. It is there so drivers will know when they are breaking the law. Can you imagine what would happen if CO abolished all driving laws? How about if the church abolished Yahweh's laws?

The "good works" of Matthew 5:16 include obeying Yahweh's laws which is why Yeshua made it a point to discuss the law in the verses that follow.



So you don't keep, "Thou shall not steal"? What about laws against murder and adultery which Yeshua upheld? If you tell me that you automatically don't do those things because you obey the "two commandments", does your heart/conscience also keep you from eating swine's flesh, breaking the Sabbath and not getting tattoos?

Love God.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
So that's pretty simple to know right from wrong in that context for loving others. Stealing, murder, sexual sin, gossiping, kidnapping, lying, anything that would do harm to someone, anything I would or wouldn't want done to me.
It also tells me that I should help those less fortunate than me. It tells me that I should honor any vows I make. That I should deal fairing in business with others. It tells me I should care for the people of the Body of Christ and support them. It tells me that I should share the Gospel Message. It tells me to be a Godly mother and wife.
It tells me that I am so very blessed that God made a way for me to be his daughter and He is willing to share my life with me. I love God because He truly did love me first and all I have to do is respond to His love.

No the Holy Spirit has never impressed on me that I need to eat kosher or observe the Saturday Sabbath. However, for me tattoos just don't feel right and I wouldn't want my children to get one. But that's me and I don't judge others who do get them.
If someone who eats kosher were eating dinner with me I would not eat anything that would bother them. If I had a Messianic Fellowship to attend I probably would go there to worship but not if they believed that the Law of Moses is still in effect. I have found that there is something about the feasts that touch my heart.

 

[jocor]

Love God.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
So that's pretty simple to know right from wrong in that context for loving others. Stealing, murder, sexual sin, gossiping, kidnapping, lying, anything that would do harm to someone, anything I would or wouldn't want done to me.
It also tells me that I should help those less fortunate than me. It tells me that I should honor any vows I make. That I should deal fairing in business with others. It tells me I should care for the people of the Body of Christ and support them. It tells me that I should share the Gospel Message. It tells me to be a Godly mother and wife.
It tells me that I am so very blessed that God made a way for me to be his daughter and He is willing to share my life with me. I love God because He truly did love me first and all I have to do is respond to His love.

Great! It is easy to know the difference between right and wrong concerning those things. Even unbelievers know it is wrong to do those things which is why there are national laws against some of them. There are also NT admonitions against such things which are really just reminders of OT laws. There are also NT admonitions to do the positive things you mentioned like caring for the Body and sharing the Gospel.

No the Holy Spirit has never impressed on me that I need to eat kosher or observe the Saturday Sabbath. However, for me tattoos just don't feel right and I wouldn't want my children to get one. But that's me and I don't judge others who do get them.
If someone who eats kosher were eating dinner with me I would not eat anything that would bother them. If I had a Messianic Fellowship to attend I probably would go there to worship but not if they believed that the Law of Moses is still in effect. I have found that there is something about the feasts that touch my heart.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
​

I do not believe we need to wait until the Holy Spirit convicts us or impresses on us the need to keep the Sabbaths (weekly and annual) holy or eat clean. Yahweh has already told His people what they must do. He has revealed His will to us. Most don't do it, not because the Holy Spirit has not yet impressed it upon them, but because Christian leaders have impressed it upon them to NOT do those things. For Christians today, it is a matter of overcoming being taught falsely. That requires rightly dividing the word. We haven't discussed the Scriptures people use to teach the dietary laws are abolished. We are only discussing Colossians 2 concerning Feasts and weekly Sabbaths.

Are you aware that the "Law of Moses" and the "Law of Yahweh" are the same thing? Yahweh revealed His law through Moses which is why it is called the Law of Moses.

Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as Yahweh my God commanded me, that you should do so in the land where you go to possess it.
Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
For what nation is there so great, who has God so nigh unto them, as Yahweh our God is in all things that we call upon Him for?
And what nation is there so great, that has statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? Deuteronomy 4:5-8​

 

[Deborah13]

Great! It is easy to know the difference between right and wrong concerning those things. Even unbelievers know it is wrong to do those things which is why there are national laws against some of them. There are also NT admonitions against such things which are really just reminders of OT laws. There are also NT admonitions to do the positive things you mentioned like caring for the Body and sharing the Gospel.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
​

I do not believe we need to wait until the Holy Spirit convicts us or impresses on us the need to keep the Sabbaths (weekly and annual) holy or eat clean. Yahweh has already told His people what they must do. He has revealed His will to us. Most don't do it, not because the Holy Spirit has not yet impressed it upon them, but because Christian leaders have impressed it upon them to NOT do those things. For Christians today, it is a matter of overcoming being taught falsely. That requires rightly dividing the word. We haven't discussed the Scriptures people use to teach the dietary laws are abolished. We are only discussing Colossians 2 concerning Feasts and weekly Sabbaths.

Are you aware that the "Law of Moses" and the "Law of Yahweh" are the same thing? Yahweh revealed His law through Moses which is why it is called the Law of Moses.

Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as Yahweh my God commanded me, that you should do so in the land where you go to possess it.
Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
For what nation is there so great, who has God so nigh unto them, as Yahweh our God is in all things that we call upon Him for?
And what nation is there so great, that has statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? Deuteronomy 4:5-8​

You must believe then that it is allowed by God for a man to have more than one wife at the same time?
But Paul says that the ones to be trusted as elders must be the husband of one wife.

You and maybe your wife believe she must ask forgiveness for being unclean at those times of the month, approx. 14 days of the month she is impure, if I remember correctly?

Would you say that the vow of the Nazarene is a custom?
I think the apostle called it a custom.

If I saw where everyone was told they must do the feasts in order to be obeying God that would be different. You didn't address what I said about the apostles leading the Gentiles astray and out and out lying about Godliness by not telling them they needed to follow Moses Law.
One scripture should not be pulled to make a doctrine, this is a big subject where one must exam other scriptures because scripture interprets scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I learned from the Bible was if a fellow believer in the blood of Christ thinks 'keep Sabbath', for example, is to him what 'do not murder' is to the rest of us, then we have an obligation to not provoke him to sin against that which he in his own mind sees as an obligatory and expected outcome of faith in Christ.

Let me say it this way. If a law keeping believer thinks 'keep Sabbath' is an expected obedience of faith for reasons other than justification, just as we all agree that 'do not murder' is an expected obedience of faith for reasons other than justification, than we need to leave him alone.

That doesn't mean we can't politely and respectfully share our opinion of why we personally don't 'keep Sabbath' (IF they want to hear it). It means don't be a stumbling block to them by being so persuasive or condescending that you actually cause them to not do faithfully which they are convinced in their own conscience is the obedience they owe God as one who believes and trusts in the blood of Christ for justification.

They do what they are convinced they should do with thanksgiving and unto the Lord. Who are we to take that away from them? (Romans 14:6 NAS). That is what finally convinced me to leave them alone.

 

[Deborah13]

What I learned from the Bible was if a fellow believer in the blood of Christ thinks 'keep Sabbath', for example, is to him what 'do not murder' is to the rest of us, then we have an obligation to not provoke him to sin against that which he in his own mind sees as an obligatory and expected outcome of faith in Christ.

Let me say it this way. If a law keeping believer thinks 'keep Sabbath' is an expected obedience of faith for reasons other than justification, just as we all agree that 'do not murder' is an expected obedience of faith for reasons other than justification, than we need to leave him alone.

That doesn't mean we can't politely and respectfully share our opinion of why we personally don't 'keep Sabbath' (IF they want to hear it). It means don't be a stumbling block to them by being so persuasive or condescending that you actually cause them to not do faithfully which they are convinced in their own conscience is the obedience they owe God as one who believes and trusts in the blood of Christ for justification.

They do what they are convinced they should do with thanksgiving and unto the Lord. Who are we to take that away from them? (Romans 14:6 NAS). That is what finally convinced me to leave them alone.

I agree, I wish they all believed the same thing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now for my reason I do not keep the literal Sabbath/ Festival cycle of worship....

You do not need to satisfy that which those things sought to do for the people of God which has now been forever and completely satisfied for the people of God in the blood and body of Christ. Hebrews gives the example of the Day of Atonement. Since the requirements for the Day of Atonement have been supplied in Christ there is no longer the need to do a Day of Atonement. But that hardly means you can't do them anyway as a way to commemorate and honor that which God did through Christ in satisfying those requirements. Somehow we decided pagan festivals were how we should do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree, I wish they all believed the same thing.

Who, law keepers, or all of us?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Mosaic, first covenant requirements for worship, cleanliness, and separation are all satisfied through the blood and body of Christ and secured by us by faith in that blood and body.

Why do the people of God already brought near to God in worship, cleanliness, and separation through the blood of Christ HAVE to still draw near to God through the old way to do that? It's already done.

"...it (the literal law) can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered?" (Hebrews 10:1-2 NAS)

The answer, of course, is 'yes', they would stop. The end of the literal sacrifice of animals for sin is the premier example of how we understand that what God did through faith in Christ allows us to stop doing that which sought to do the same thing, but which is not completely and forever satisfied through faith in Christ. Similarly, we don't have to keep literal laws of cleanliness because we've already been made clean and fit for fellowship with God through Christ. The law of cleanliness is for unclean people, not for people already made clean in Christ. We don't NEED to be clean through the old way since we're already clean in Christ. And so it is with the rest of the literal cleanliness, worship, and separation laws.

 

[Deborah13]

Who, law keepers, or all of us?

All of us.

I agree with your explanation of those laws and well said in post # 49.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

All of us.

 

[jocor]

You must believe then that it is allowed by God for a man to have more than one wife at the same time?
But Paul says that the ones to be trusted as elders must be the husband of one wife.

You and maybe your wife believe she must ask forgiveness for being unclean at those times of the month, approx. 14 days of the month she is impure, if I remember correctly?

Would you say that the vow of the Nazarene is a custom?
I think the apostle called it a custom.

Polygamy was certainly "allowed" under the OC. There was no law against it except for kings. I do not believe it is allowed for those in Messiah (at least not for elders).

It is not a sin for a woman to be unclean during her time. Therefore, no repentance or asking for forgiveness was necessary.

Yes, the Nazarite vow was a custom that was regulated by Torah. Yahweh never commanded people to take such vows.

You didn't address what I said about the apostles leading the Gentiles astray and out and out lying about Godliness by not telling them they needed to follow Moses Law. One scripture should not be pulled to make a doctrine, this is a big subject where one must exam other scriptures because scripture interprets scripture.

The Apostles told the Gentiles they needed to follow four essential requirements from Moses (even though you say we are to follow only two). When James said, "For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day", he was saying (I'm paraphrasing), "We are only imposing four requirements FOR (BECAUSE) they will hear Moses' law read every Sabbath and will eventually learn the rest of the law." Not only would the eventually learn the rest of Torah, but they will do it on the Sabbath day. There was no such thing as a Sunday Sabbath at this time. That was a later corruption to true worship.

 

[jocor]

Now for my reason I do not keep the literal Sabbath/ Festival cycle of worship....

You do not need to satisfy that which those things sought to do for the people of God which has now been forever and completely satisfied for the people of God in the blood and body of Christ. Hebrews gives the example of the Day of Atonement. Since the requirements for the Day of Atonement have been supplied in Christ there is no longer the need to do a Day of Atonement. But that hardly means you can't do them anyway as a way to commemorate and honor that which God did through Christ in satisfying those requirements. Somehow we decided pagan festivals were how we should do that.

So, you are saying that the physical rest from labor that the Sabbath provides has been satisfied by the body and blood of Christ? How come my body doesn't know that? Why does it long for a physical rest after six hard days of work? And what about animals? Can a Christian farmer today work his ox seven days a week? Abolishing the Sabbath based on such a philosophy shows a lack of mercy and concern for workers whether man or animal.

Also, on what grounds do you believe the shadow of the Day of Trumpets has been satisfied? As for Atonement, yes, Messiah is our Atonement, but more was to happen on Atonement than just the atoning sacrifices. The Jubilee trumpet was to sound on that day every 50th year signaling the long awaited release. The anti-typical Jubilee trumpet has yet to sound when Messiah returns to resurrect the dead and set the captives of death free from their graves to return to their families and possessions.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is not a sin for a woman to be unclean during her time. Therefore, no repentance or asking for forgiveness was necessary.

This is true. Uncleanness in and of itself was not a sin. Certain things you did in your uncleanness were sin that needed to be atoned for. Uncleanness cuts you off from fellowship with God and his people. That is what is wrong with uncleanness. By nature, we humans are unclean and unfit for fellowship with God and his people, thus the laws to deal with uncleanness.

Deborah, you'll learn a lot from law keepers. You really will. But that doesn't mean we have to come to the same conclusion about law keeping they have and are entitled to have.

The Apostles told the Gentiles they needed to follow four essential requirements from Moses (even though you say we are to follow only two). When James said, "For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day", he was saying (I'm paraphrasing), "We are only imposing four requirements FOR (BECAUSE) they will hear Moses' law read every Sabbath and will eventually learn the rest of the law." Not only would the eventually learn the rest of Torah, but they will do it on the Sabbath day. There was no such thing as a Sunday Sabbath at this time. That was a later corruption to true worship.

I resisted this for a long time. But I'm beginning to see that is exactly what James was saying. That interpretation doesn't mean we HAVE to keep the literal ceremonial law. It means in the early church it was well understood that salvation was granted to a person so they could now begin to obey God and enjoy the promises that obedience had attached to it. But we gentiles can't understand that because we are so utterly divorced from what 'now being obedient' would mean to a first century Jewish body of believers turning to Christ. It hardly meant, "oh, now I can worship God through pagan practices and festivals!" Hardly. That is exactly contrary to salvation and obedience to God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, you are saying that the physical rest from labor that the Sabbath provides has been satisfied by the body and blood of Christ? How come my body doesn't know that? Why does it long for a physical rest after six hard days of work? And what about animals? Can a Christian farmer today work his ox seven days a week? Abolishing the Sabbath based on such a philosophy shows a lack of mercy and concern for workers whether man or animal.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the literal requirements no longer determine your covenant status with God. In regard to being in, and staying in covenant with God, the stipulations for rest are satisfied in the Rest we enter into when we believe and trust in Christ's work of covenant status--resting from our own lawful effort to be in covenant with God.

Also, on what grounds do you believe the shadow of the Day of Trumpets has been satisfied? As for Atonement, yes, Messiah is our Atonement, but more was to happen on Atonement than just the atoning sacrifices. The Jubilee trumpet was to sound on that day every 50th year signaling the long awaited release. The anti-typical Jubilee trumpet has yet to sound when Messiah returns to resurrect the dead and set the captives of death free from their graves to return to their families and possessions.

But that happened when Christ was resurrected. The slaves were set free from their bondage to sin. The Year of Jubilee has already come in the appearing of Christ. Is there still a more literal fulfillment in regard to our bodies? I can't argue that there is. But it's clear that the slave to sin has already been set free in the appointed time of Christ's appearance and faith in his name. Christ is the fulfilling and the satisfying of God's requirement for an appointed time of the release of the slaves and the return of property owned by virtue of birth (think spiritual birth). The property released is the rightful abundance of the Spirit to the people of God born to God, and the release of slavery is the release of his people to the servitude and bondage to sin. Christ is the 'day' of that happening. Faith in Christ is how we apply that fulfillment to ourselves such that the requirement for that 'day' is marked satisfied and fulfilled for us before God.

 

[jocor]

Mosaic, first covenant requirements for worship, cleanliness, and separation are all satisfied through the blood and body of Christ and secured by us by faith in that blood and body.

Why do the people of God already brought near to God in worship, cleanliness, and separation through the blood of Christ HAVE to still draw near to God through the old way to do that? It's already done.

"...it (the literal law) can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered?" (Hebrews 10:1-2 NAS)

The answer, of course, is 'yes', they would stop. The end of the literal sacrifice of animals for sin is the premier example of how we understand that what God did through faith in Christ allows us to stop doing that which sought to do the same thing, but which is not completely and forever satisfied through faith in Christ. Similarly, we don't have to keep literal laws of cleanliness because we've already been made clean and fit for fellowship with God through Christ. The law of cleanliness is for unclean people, not for people already made clean in Christ. We don't NEED to be clean through the old way since we're already clean in Christ. And so it is with the rest of the literal cleanliness, worship, and separation laws.

Hebrews 10:1-2 have nothing to do with cleanliness from bodily contaminations. They concern sacrifices to make the worshiper perfect by cleansing of sin. Such sacrifices for sin have indeed stopped. You evidently don't understand the hygienic value of the sanitation, quarantine and dietary laws. With all the diseases that are spread from person to person today through dead bodies, excrement, failing to separate the afflicted from the healthy population, blood borne diseases, etc., the world would do well to return to those laws. It is obvious that Christians are not immune to such diseases even though they are cleansed by Yeshua's blood.

 

[jocor]

I resisted this for a long time. But I'm beginning to see that is exactly what James was saying. That interpretation doesn't mean we HAVE to keep the literal ceremonial law. It means in the early church it was well understood that salvation was granted to a person so they could now begin to obey God and enjoy the promises that obedience had attached to it. But we gentiles can't understand that because we are so utterly divorced from what 'now being obedient' would mean to a first century Jewish body of believers turning to Christ. It hardly meant, "oh, now I can worship God through pagan practices and festivals!" Hardly. That is exactly contrary to salvation and obedience to God.

For some reason, your post #54 quotes "chessman" as the poster. While I am a chess player, it is i "jocor" that said that.

May I ask what you consider to be "ceremonial law"? Since that is not a Biblical term, the definition varies from person to person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hebrews 10:1-2 have nothing to do with cleanliness from bodily contaminations. They concern sacrifices to make the worshiper perfect by cleansing of sin. Such sacrifices for sin have indeed stopped. You evidently don't understand the hygienic value of the sanitation, quarantine and dietary laws. With all the diseases that are spread from person to person today through dead bodies, excrement, failing to separate the afflicted from the healthy population, blood borne diseases, etc., the world would do well to return to those laws. It is obvious that Christians are not immune to such diseases even though they are cleansed by Yeshua's blood.

What you are trying to do is making the law of Moses a matter of practical law. Some of it is, some of it is not. But the point is, it is no longer a matter of covenant law.

Your status in the covenant is no longer determined by the literal stipulations of the law of Moses. Christ is the New Covenant through which that happens--and in a much more non-discriminatory way than the law of Moses determined covenant status, in fact, in a completely non-discriminatory way, giving no consideration of race, or gender in regard to the matter of covenant privilege.

So, nobody can argue with some of the practical applications of the law of Moses, but to insist all of them have to be done for practical reasons, and more importantly for reasons of covenant is completely false.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For some reason, your post #54 quotes "chessman" as the poster. While I am a chess player, it is i "jocor" that said that.

LOL, his quote thingy must have still been pasted to my clipboard. I hate when that happens.

May I ask what you consider to be "ceremonial law"? Since that is not a Biblical term, the definition varies from person to person.

All the literal stipulations found in the law on how to worship God, be separated from God, and clean for God.

(Yes, I said 'be separated from God'. I.e., the curtain in the Holiest of Holy place in the Temple.)

 

[jocor]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the literal requirements no longer determine your covenant status with God. In regard to being in, and staying in covenant with God, the stipulations for rest are satisfied in the Rest we enter into when we believe and trust in Christ's work of covenant status--resting from our own lawful effort to be in covenant with God.

I agree with covenant status. Do you believe the rest we have in Messiah replaces the physical Sabbath rest?

But that happened when Christ was resurrected. The slaves were set free from their bondage to sin. The Year of Jubilee has already come in the appearing of Christ. Is there still a more literal fulfillment in regard to our bodies? I can't argue that there is. But it's clear that the slave to sin has already been set free in the appointed time of Christ's appearance and faith in his name. Christ is the fulfilling and the satisfying of God's requirement for an appointed time of the release of the slaves and the return of property owned by virtue of birth (think spiritual birth). The property released is the rightful abundance of the Spirit to the people of God born to God, and the release of slavery is the release of his people to the servitude and bondage to sin. Christ is the 'day' of that happening. Faith in Christ is how we apply that fulfillment to ourselves such that the requirement for that 'day' is marked satisfied and fulfilled for us before God.

Yes, we are freed from sin, but all will remain in the graves until Messiah comes with the keys to death and the grave and sets them free, literally (Rev 1:18).