Growth Comment on “The Church Age”

[farouk]

John 18:36 was given before the resurrection. Not even Christ's Apostles were Christian prior to the resurrection. No one was, and no one could have been until after the resurrection. They didn't need the ascension to confirm the resurrection, rather the ascension confirmed their part in the great commission. The millennial kingdom is Jesus' Kingdom dwelling in the Christian, who dwells in the world, but as a stranger, fulfilling the great commission. Through this the entire world is blessed, even those who don't believe.

Is not the Great Comissions (Matthew 28), rather, the instructions for the church age for the glorious preaching of the gospel to all the world, Jew and Gentile? by which sinners by faith can be saved?

My understanding of the millennium on earth is that it relates to the reign of the Lord Jesus in power and glory, distinct from His gracious work of calling sinners to Himself as the pilgrim, church body to be raptured.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

What about Matthew 24, 2 Thessalonians, etc.? Clearly they are about saints on earth after the church has gone; and not about the church, as such.

Blessings.

they are mentioning the church. if a Hebrew is saved now. what will he be in the millennium? saved or a jew? said jew will be doing what when he repents. killing via a priest his bulls, goats and drink offerings and such like or praying for forgiveness via the blood? if its the later then its just a church.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe whenever the word "seed" is used it is posterity. Only Jews are posterity of Abraham's natural seed. Believing Gentiles are of the faith of Abraham, but not his seed or posterity.

Please explain your view of these scriptures. I'm not quoting all the verses but surely do expect you to address these in the context of the whole teaching but please be clear as to which verses in the whole teaching uphold your understanding or if any of them do.

Romans 4 KJV
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Also could you give scripture that says that the Israelites were promised the "whole world" as their inheritance? Thank you.

 

[Sinthesis]

Is not the Great Comissions (Matthew 28), rather, the instructions for the church age for the glorious preaching of the gospel to all the world, Jew and Gentile? by which sinners by faith can be saved?

My understanding of the millennium on earth is that it relates to the reign of the Lord Jesus in power and glory, distinct from His gracious work of calling sinners to Himself as the pilgrim, church body to be raptured.

Blessings.

Is not Lord Jesus your King, so that He reigns over you in power and glory? And are not you still on the earth, though no longer of it, calling sinners to repent, believe, and be gathered in Christ?

 

[netchaplain]

Jewish prophecies speak about the Gentiles (and their blessing of eternal life), but they speak to the Jews, through whom salvation came to the Gentiles (Rom 11:11).

In my opinion, establishing the basis for the concept concerning the distinctions between Israel and the Church could be in how one defines "the new testament (covenant) in My blood" (Luke 22:20). It is my present understanding that the new covenant in Christ's blood is a covenant which is not between man and God, as the Decalogue (Ten Commandments) was with the nation Israel. It is a covenant between the Father and the Son (made in eternity, before creation), of which man is only a recipient ("everlasting covenant" - Heb 13:20, 21). I believe this covenant has been accurately summed up in the concept that the Father would raise His Son from the dead when He died to atone for sin in believers.

Thus, when the Lord Jesus was revealing it to the Jews (who are first in everything spiritual), the word "new" designed a dual intention concerning chronologically and application: chronologically "new" because it had yet to be brought forth in time, and "new", in that it was different from the old (old--conditional; new--unconditional).

To the Gentile, "new" designs a single intention concerning chronology only, because the Gentile never has and never will need to enter a covenant between them and God, but has entered the covenant between the Father and the Son (Everlasting Covenant), same now as the believing Jew.

The Millennium Jew (Jews who have yet to believe in Jesus) new covenant will also be everlasting (same as the believing Christian Jew) and will not be as the old covenant (Jer 31:32), where they could not avoid "braking" it (also v 32), because it requires God "causing" (Eze 36:27) them to keep His statutes and laws--through putting His Spirit in them (again Eze 36:27), same as Christians (Jew/Gentile) now (Gal 5:17).

This concept has other implications that I'm still researching to understand, which may be resolved as we continue to share with one another and correspond with what the Lord gives us to use. I would rather learn and accept a truth that may conflict with my present understanding concerning Scripture doctrine, than to worry about being embarrassed from not having an explanation for a concept or belief. One of my motives for sharing my beliefs is to as much as possible, learn truth, because the Spirit teaches through us all.

For Christ’s Sake (Eph 4:32) <><

 

[jasoncran]

then those JEWS are no different then this jew who posts. or my family who comes to the LORD. the problem with that idea is that when jesus returns, you either serve him or you don't. how will any survive any judgement of god if he judges the whole world?

 

[netchaplain]

Please explain your view of these scriptures. I'm not quoting all the verses but surely do expect you to address these in the context of the whole teaching but please be clear as to which verses in the whole teaching uphold your understanding or if any of them do.

Romans 4 KJV
11 that he might be the father of all them that believe

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham,
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

16 the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,)

that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Also could you give scripture that says that the Israelites were promised the "whole world" as their inheritance? Thank you.

Hi Deb - I diminished the above to center on Abraham being the father of all who believe. To the believing Gentiles he is their father in the faith, as in first in the faith of God's grace, not seed or spiritual posterity. To the believing Jews he is not only their father in the faith being the first, but also because of natural posterity.

In Romans 9:7, only the believing seed of Abraham "are counted for the seed" (v 8), which are those of Isaac, and not of Ishmael.

As the context intends, even though one is a Jew by posterity, he is not considered a seed or child of Abraham unless he is a believing Jew. Only Jews who are of faith are children of Abraham.

 

[JLB]

Jewish prophecies speak about the Gentiles (and their blessing of eternal life), but they speak to the Jews, through whom salvation came to the Gentiles (Rom 11:11).

In my opinion, establishing the basis for the concept concerning the distinctions between Israel and the Church could be in how one defines "the new testament (covenant) in My blood" (Luke 22:20). It is my present understanding that the new covenant in Christ's blood is a covenant which is not between man and God, as the Decalogue (Ten Commandments) was with the nation Israel. It is a covenant between the Father and the Son (made in eternity, before creation), of which man is only a recipient ("everlasting covenant" - Heb 13:20, 21). I believe this covenant has been accurately summed up in the concept that the Father would raise His Son from the dead when He died to atone for sin in believers.

Thus, when the Lord Jesus was revealing it to the Jews (who are first in everything spiritual), the word "new" designed a dual intention concerning chronologically and application: chronologically "new" because it had yet to be brought forth in time, and "new", in that it was different from the old (old--conditional; new--unconditional).

To the Gentile, "new" designs a single intention concerning chronology only, because the Gentile never has and never will need to enter a covenant between them and God, but has entered the covenant between the Father and the Son (Everlasting Covenant), same now as the believing Jew.

The Millennium Jew (Jews who have yet to believe in Jesus) new covenant will also be everlasting (same as the believing Christian Jew) and will not be as the old covenant (Jer 31:32), where they could not avoid "braking" it (also v 32), because it requires God "causing" (Eze 36:27) them to keep His statutes and laws--through putting His Spirit in them (again Eze 36:27), same as Christians (Jew/Gentile) now (Gal 5:17).

This concept has other implications that I'm still researching to understand, which may be resolved as we continue to share with one another and correspond with what the Lord gives us to use. I would rather learn and accept a truth that may conflict with my present understanding concerning Scripture doctrine, than to worry about being embarrassed from not having an explanation for a concept or belief. One of my motives for sharing my beliefs is to as much as possible, learn truth, because the Spirit teaches through us all.

For Christ’s Sake (Eph 4:32) <><

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34

Kind of hard to get around these words.

I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel.

The Abrahamic Covenant was between the Lord, before He became flesh, and Abraham. This covenant always included gentiles. As it is written, I will make you a father of many nations.

The law was added until the Seed should come and bring the new covenant, of which, gentiles were included.


JLB

 

[jasoncran]

ok. that makes moses sons illegit as gershom and merari weren't born of the jewish line but of a kenite. the mother is where the identity of the child is carried. the father is where the legal stuff is and rights of land. add two tribes to that as well. joseph's sons were Egyptian. as deborah13 says its a faith not gene!

 

[gr8grace]

Gen 13:14-15, “The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, “Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.”
Gen 15:18, “On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates.”
It was confirmed to Isaac (Gen. 26:3-4) and was confirmed to Jacob (Gen. 35:12). It was reiterated to Moses (Ex. 6:2-8). Moses described the geographical boundaries of the land in Numbers 34:1-2. Moses prophesied the fulfillment of this covenant during the Millennium in Deuteronomy 30:1-9.
To encourage the Jews to enter the land God confirmed the land grant to Joshua in Joshua 1:2-4. Josh 1:2-4, “Moses My servant is dead; now therefore arise, cross this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them, to the sons of Israel. Every place on which the sole of your foot treads, I have given it to you, just as I spoke to Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon, even as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and as far as the Great Sea toward the setting of the sun will be your territory.”
Jeremiah and Ezekiel both confirmed the fulfillment of the land grant and related it to the New Covenant with Israel. The Land Grant under the Palestinian Covenant: (1) Most of the land in Turkey (2) Most of East Africa (3) Saudi Arabia (4) Yemen (5) Oman and Red Sea (6) Syria (7) Iraq (8) Jordan. The land grant has boundaries on the Mediterranean, on Aegean Sea, on Euphrates River and the Nile River.

So Jerusalem and all this land is actually mine and all Christians? The Jew has no right to claim Jerusalem?

One more thing. So we Identify Jesus Christ through Mary and not God the Holy Spirit? The Mother is the identity of the Child?

 

[netchaplain]

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." Jeremiah 31:31-34

Kind of hard to get around these words.

I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel.

The Abrahamic Covenant was between the Lord, before He became flesh, and Abraham. This covenant always included gentiles. As it is written, I will make you a father of many nations.

The law was added until the Seed should come and bring the new covenant, of which, gentiles were included.


JLB

I've been sharing that Abraham is the father of faith as in first in the faith of God's grace, making him the father of the faith among the believing world. Similar concept to John 8:44 concerning the Enemy. "What was written in the books of the Old Testament, was not written merely on account of them who are the subjects thereof, but for the use, learning, instruction and profit of saints under the New Testament dispensation" JG (But for us also - Rom 4:24).

It may have been noticed that I often use John Gill's commentary but I want it to be known that at present, my dispensational concepts do not always parallel his because at times he spiritualizes, as many do, Israel (unbelieving Jews, which will be the majority of Israel until later) to be the Church.

At present, I can see that Abraham becomes the father of the believing Gentile as in a spiritual-mystical sense concerning the faith in God, but as yet I fail to see how this is to support the concept that the Church is Israel.

It will help for me to explain that I have the understanding that there will be unbelieving Jews saved later (living Jews who make up Israel at that time), who will be the ones to "inherit the earth." The companion-concept to Israel inheriting the "new earth" is, that when Scripture speaks of saints dwelling in Heaven, these are those who believed before they died and before Jesus returns.

This is why I still fail to comprehend that Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 are in any reference to Gentiles, considering the ominous Jewish-posterity usage, which appears to explain that the new covenant of Israel indicated in Jer/Eze prophecies are similar to the new covenant which has been since Christ's ascension, e.g. Spirit given and God causing them to walk in statues and laws. This Israelite covenant would be the result of new covenant in His blood, as is the present Christian new covenant, which is the "everlasting covenant" (Heb 13:20,21); but the two would not be "blessed" (John 20:29) the same (saved Israel--new earth; saved Christian--new heaven?).

I encountered these concepts (Israel/Church distinctions and eternal states) about ten years ago and I still find that there is a good possibility of them being true. I haven't exhausted the comprehensive input Scripture has concerning them, nor have I come to the understanding that the Spirit has shown me a confirmation as to accept them as speculation or truth. It's all in the patience of waiting on the Lord!

 

[JLB]

I've been sharing that Abraham is the father of faith as in first in the faith of God's grace, making him the father of the faith among the believing world. Similar concept to John 8:44 concerning the Enemy. "What was written in the books of the Old Testament, was not written merely on account of them who are the subjects thereof, but for the use, learning, instruction and profit of saints under the New Testament dispensation" JG (But for us also - Rom 4:24).

It may have been noticed that I often use John Gill's commentary but I want it to be known that at present, my dispensational concepts do not always parallel his because at times he spiritualizes, as many do, Israel (unbelieving Jews, which will be the majority of Israel until later) to be the Church.

At present, I can see that Abraham becomes the father of the believing Gentile as in a spiritual-mystical sense concerning the faith in God, but as yet I fail to see how this is to support the concept that the Church is Israel.

It will help for me to explain that I have the understanding that there will be unbelieving Jews saved later (living Jews who make up Israel at that time), who will be the ones to "inherit the earth." The companion-concept to Israel inheriting the "new earth" is, that when Scripture speaks of saints dwelling in Heaven, these are those who believed before they died and before Jesus returns.

This is why I still fail to comprehend that Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 are in any reference to Gentiles, considering the ominous Jewish-posterity usage, which appears to explain that the new covenant of Israel indicated in Jer/Eze prophecies are similar to the new covenant which has been since Christ's ascension, e.g. Spirit given and God causing them to walk in statues and laws. This Israelite covenant would be the result of new covenant in His blood, as is the present Christian new covenant, which is the "everlasting covenant" (Heb 13:20,21); but the two would not be "blessed" (John 20:29) the same (saved Israel--new earth; saved Christian--new heaven?).

I encountered these concepts (Israel/Church distinctions and eternal states) about ten years ago and I still find that there is a good possibility of them being true. I haven't exhausted the comprehensive input Scripture has concerning them, nor have I come to the understanding that the Spirit has shown me a confirmation as to accept them as speculation or truth. It's all in the patience of waiting on the Lord!

Thanks for your reply.

Do you see Abraham, as a Church member?

It was he who is in Covenant with the Lord, who later became flesh.

I see this as significant. Both to naming of paradise after Abraham, as well as Christians being grafted into that Covenant.


JLB

 

[netchaplain]

The Jew has no right to claim Jerusalem?

Hi JK - I do not believe that the unbelieving Jew will inherit the heavenly "New Jerusalem," which is where the Church will be (

Thanks for your reply.

Do you see Abraham, as a Church member?

It was he who is in Covenant with the Lord, who later became flesh.

I see this as significant. Both to naming of paradise after Abraham, as well as Christians being grafted into that Covenant.


JLB

Abraham is definitely in the Church, along with all the OT saints who believed in God (always a minority group of Israel or "remnant" (Rom 11:4), him also being first in "righteousness" (Gal 3:6). I believe he understood the typology of collating God giving His Son through the attempted act of Isaac.

 

[netchaplain]

The way I see it, the old testament does not end with Malachi, it ends with John the Baptist. This is what Jesus was talking about when he said the least in heaven is greater than John the Baptist. John was the last one saved under Old Testament covenants.

Jesus said Upon this rock will I build my church, talking to Peter. Yes, all gentiles are now under new covenant. Thank God for Grace and faith!. The Lord does deal with Israel separately and distinctly differently than the church. They are His chosen people and keep turning their back on Him. There's a lot of scripture to back this up.

Hi Edward - I believe it's also helpful to indicate that the Israel that is distinct from the Church contains unbelieving Jews and not believing Jews, who were first in the Church. I certain you already knew that believing Jews are in the Church, but it may help the viewer understand better if this distinction is maintained.

I also find your comment about the "least" in heaven very interesting. It's a concept I haven't yet encountered. Thank you for the perceptive input my Brother!

Just to comment concerning Israel's disobedience, it can be understood that He knew they would be so, just as He knows the Church will not be in perfect obedience in this life, and has accounted and resolved for everything.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb - I diminished the above to center on Abraham being the father of all who believe. To the believing Gentiles he is their father in the faith, as in first in the faith of God's grace, not seed or spiritual posterity. To the believing Jews he is not only their father in the faith being the first, but also because of natural posterity.

In Romans 9:7, only the believing seed of Abraham "are counted for the seed" (v 8), which are those of Isaac, and not of Ishmael.

As the context intends, even though one is a Jew by posterity, he is not considered a seed or child of Abraham unless he is a believing Jew. Only Jews who are of faith are children of Abraham.

Got it. Thank you.

 

[Ryan]

Ephesians 2

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

 

[netchaplain]

That's a very good point you make about the unbelieving Jews vs the believing Jews NC. Thank you, I will try to remember that and maintain the distinction within my posts. Absolutely agree with you there. That the Lord said that He will build His church upon this rock (peter) should make that very plain for people. The Apostles are in the church, ie, believing Jews Post Resurrection.

And don't thank me for that input about John...Praise the Lord the truth is coming out. It is absolutely true. That knowledge will be increased in the last days...that's talking about knowledge of God there...I think a lot of people miss that distinction because it is not clearly spelled out.

Nice reply and thanks!!

 

[Deborah13]

Ephesians 2

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Indeed.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[JLB]

The way I see it, the old testament does not end with Malachi, it ends with John the Baptist. This is what Jesus was talking about when he said the least in heaven is greater than John the Baptist. John was the last one saved under Old Testament covenants.

Jesus said Upon this rock will I build my church, talking to Peter. Yes, all gentiles are now under new covenant. Thank God for Grace and faith!. The Lord does deal with Israel separately and distinctly differently than the church. They are His chosen people and keep turning their back on Him. There's a lot of scripture to back this up.

Abraham walked with the Lord by faith.

We walk with the Lord by faith.

 

[jasoncran]

Indeed.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

note that came from a messianic jew. go figure!