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Bible Study Conditional Immortality

Hi JLB,

This is a great question, and I believe while it does mean "life forever," and certainly carries that connotation in many places. I believe it also carries a qualitative meaning in many places as well, having eternal life isn't just about immortality, it is a quality of life. More specifically, it pertains to a quality of life that is in the age to come, and that future age and life comes into this age and we become part of the New Creation. Where we have no need for a priest in the Temple to mediate with God on our behalf, but we have direct access to God through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us. He is a down payment, Paul says, of our future inheritance which of course is not some vague inheritance but rather the world. The future world where Heaven and Earth become one and we shall reign with Christ over the nations.

So to put it simply, I would say eternal life is to know God and have deep and real relationship, where the world of the future comes into the present to be a light to the world.

Blessings,
DI

This is from my post 172 -

agree, for the most part with this statement, as Jesus said -

the righteous into eternal life.

Jesus made a distinction as to who would be granted eternal life, and who would not.

The righteous would be granted eternal life.

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46

However, I ask you to consider that eternal life also has an element of quality to it as opposed to everlasting [eternal] death.

Eternal life is knowing the True God. John 17:11

Eternal death would then be, not knowing God.

Eternal death would not necessarily be; "cease to exist", but rather "cease to be connected" to God, or existing in a state of being without the experience of being connected to God.



JLB


I see eternal life as a quality of existence.

I see everlasting punishment or everlasting destruction or death, as the lack of quality of existence.

You might say that the inner man or spirit man of a person is constructed from God and is eternal, and will continue to exist in one place or another, with a quality or lack of quality of their existence.
 
This is from my post 172 -

agree, for the most part with this statement, as Jesus said -

the righteous into eternal life.

Jesus made a distinction as to who would be granted eternal life, and who would not.

The righteous would be granted eternal life.

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46

However, I ask you to consider that eternal life also has an element of quality to it as opposed to everlasting [eternal] death.

Eternal life is knowing the True God. John 17:11

Eternal death would then be, not knowing God.

Eternal death would not necessarily be; "cease to exist", but rather "cease to be connected" to God, or existing in a state of being without the experience of being connected to God.



JLB


I see eternal life as a quality of existence.

I see everlasting punishment or everlasting destruction or death, as the lack of quality of existence.

You might say that the inner man or spirit man of a person is constructed from God and is eternal, and will continue to exist in one place or another, with a quality or lack of quality of their existence.

I've always thought of it this way, too.
I wasn't absolutely sure what that punishment looked like other than being separated from everything that is God, creation, kingdom, goodness, light, love, beauty, etc.
 
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Butch do we have any parallel passages in the NT using aionios with the OT using olam ? In the Body soul spirit thread Debs presented Matthew 12:18 which paralells with Isaiah 42:1 showing that psuche can paralell with nephesh and pneuma can paralell with Ruach.

I don't have the software to do this search I think.

Hi Agua and Deb,

Here is something for consideration.

Here are 4 passages where the English word “everlasting” and phrase “for ever” were translated from the Hebrew word “owlam.” In the Septuagint translation the translators used the Greek word “Aionion.” In each of these passages “Aionion” cannot mean eternal because the passages speak of things in the Mosaic Law. Paul said that the Mosaic Law was brought to end.

KJV Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13 KJV)

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. (Heb 7:11-18 KJV)

Jesus also said that the Law ended.

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luk 16:16 KJV)

According to Jesus and the apostle Paul the old covenant ended. The passages below are speaking of the first covenant that ended. It would seem to me that if it ended then it couldn’t be eternal. Therefore I must conclude that since the old covenant ended there is no way that “Aionios” can mean forever.


KJV Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. (Gen 17:13 KJV)

LXT Genesis 17:13 περιτομῇ περιτμηθήσεται ὁ οἰκογενὴς τῆς οἰκίας σου καὶὁἀργυρώνητος καὶἔσται ἡ διαθήκη μου ἐπὶ τῆς σαρκὸς ὑμῶν εἰς διαθήκην αἰώνιον (Gen 17:13 LXT)


KJV Exodus 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. (Exo 12:14 KJV)

LXT Exodus 12:14 καὶἔσται ἡἡμέρα ὑμῖν αὕτη μνημόσυνον καὶἑορτάσετε αὐτὴν ἑορτὴν κυρίῳ εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς ὑμῶν νόμιμον αἰώνιον ἑορτάσετε αὐτήν (Exo 12:14 LXT)

KJV Exodus 12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. (Exo 12:17 KJV)

LXT Exodus 12:17 καὶ φυλάξεσθε τὴν ἐντολὴν ταύτην ἐν γὰρ τῇἡμέρᾳ ταύτῃἐξάξω τὴν δύναμιν ὑμῶν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου καὶ ποιήσετε τὴν ἡμέραν ταύτην εἰς γενεὰς ὑμῶν νόμιμον αἰώνιον (Exo 12:17 LXT)

KJV Exodus 27:21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel. (Exo 27:21 KJV)

BGT Exodus 27:21ἐν τῇ σκηνῇ τοῦ μαρτυρίου ἔξωθεν τοῦ καταπετάσματος τοῦἐπὶ τῆς διαθήκης καύσει αὐτὸ Ααρων καὶ οἱ υἱοὶ αὐτοῦἀφ᾽ἑσπέρας ἕως πρωὶἐναντίον κυρίου νόμιμον αἰώνιον εἰς τὰς γενεὰς ὑμῶν παρὰ τῶν υἱῶν Ισραηλ (Exo 27:21 BGT)
 
Having looked at the word "Aionios" and seeing that it is used of things that have ended I conclude that it does not mean eternal. However, we cannot leave it there. If it doesn't mean eternal are the translations of it that speak of it being eternal wrong? Not necessarily. "Aion" typically is translated "age". An age is an unspecified period of time. This, I believe is the definition of "Aionios." I think if this is correct it should fit everywhere the word is used. When God speaks to Abraham and says that circumcision will be a covenant "Aionion" we can understand that the length of time was not given to Abraham, that God was saying until time unknown.

If we define it as "Time unknown" we can see how this term could be used of a specific period of time that would come to an end yet on the other hand it could be used of a period of time that will never come to an end, simply because the time is not specified.

Also, I'd like to look into the usage of "aion" as an idiom. We use the word forever as an idiom in English. Consider these,
"Man he's slow, he's taking forever to eat" or "Man, this lecture has gone on for forever and a day."
 
Hi Agua and Deb,

Here is something for consideration.

Here are 4 passages where the English word “everlasting” and phrase “for ever” were translated from the Hebrew word “owlam.” In the Septuagint translation the translators used the Greek word “Aionion.” In each of these passages “Aionion” cannot mean eternal because the passages speak of things in the Mosaic Law. Paul said that the Mosaic Law was brought to end.

KJV Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Heb 8:13 KJV)

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. (Heb 7:11-18 KJV)

Jesus also said that the Law ended.

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. (Luk 16:16 KJV)

According to Jesus and the apostle Paul the old covenant ended. The passages below are speaking of the first covenant that ended. It would seem to me that if it ended then it couldn’t be eternal. Therefore I must conclude that since the old covenant ended there is no way that “Aionios” can mean forever.


KJV Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. (Gen 17:13 KJV)

LXT Genesis 17:13 περιτομῇ περιτμηθήσεται ὁ οἰκογενὴς τῆς οἰκίας σου καὶὁἀργυρώνητος καὶἔσται ἡ διαθήκη μου ἐπὶ τῆς σαρκὸς ὑμῶν εἰς διαθήκην αἰώνιον (Gen 17:13 LXT)


KJV Exodus 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. (Exo 12:14 KJV)

LXT Exodus 12:14 καὶἔσται ἡἡμέρα ὑμῖν αὕτη μνημόσυνον καὶἑορτάσετε αὐτὴν ἑορτὴν κυρίῳ εἰς πάσας τὰς γενεὰς ὑμῶν νόμιμον αἰώνιον ἑορτάσετε αὐτήν (Exo 12:14 LXT)

KJV Exodus 12:17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. (Exo 12:17 KJV)

LXT Exodus 12:17 καὶ φυλάξεσθε τὴν ἐντολὴν ταύτην ἐν γὰρ τῇἡμέρᾳ ταύτῃἐξάξω τὴν δύναμιν ὑμῶν ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου καὶ ποιήσετε τὴν ἡμέραν ταύτην εἰς γενεὰς ὑμῶν νόμιμον αἰώνιον (Exo 12:17 LXT)

KJV Exodus 27:21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel. (Exo 27:21 KJV)

BGT Exodus 27:21ἐν τῇ σκηνῇ τοῦ μαρτυρίου ἔξωθεν τοῦ καταπετάσματος τοῦἐπὶ τῆς διαθήκης καύσει αὐτὸ Ααρων καὶ οἱ υἱοὶ αὐτοῦἀφ᾽ἑσπέρας ἕως πρωὶἐναντίον κυρίου νόμιμον αἰώνιον εἰς τὰς γενεὰς ὑμῶν παρὰ τῶν υἱῶν Ισραηλ (Exo 27:21 BGT)

Butch, I can't compare either the Hebrews or the Luke scriptures to the Genesis scripture because I think they are talking about two different things.
I can compare Hebrews and Luke to these others though. However....
The Exodus scriptures seems to give a description that clarifies what that time period of forever (age-during) is, "throughout your generations", in your generations, their generations?
 
Will these work?

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Cool thanks Deb !

Hi Deb and Agua,

This is good. The passage from Dan 2:44 uses and Arabic word "alam" which is the equivalent of the Hebrew word "owlam" and in Luke 1:33 Luke used the Greek word "Aion" which is typically translated age. However, what's interesting about Luke 1:33 is that Luke tells us that the "age" will last for ever because he says, of His kingdom there shall be no end. The Bible uses phrases to indicate eternity, in this case, "shall be no end." So, even though "aion" means age, Luke tells us that that age won't end.

In Dan 12:2 the Hebrew text uses the word "owlam" in both instances and the Septuagint translates both instances with the Greek word "Aionion" which is another form of the word "Aion". Mathew uses the word "Aionios".

What I believe to be the issue is that "owlam" which is translated with "Aion" in the Septugint does not mean eternity. It can be used to speak of eternal time but eternal time is not the definition of it. Therefore, I have to wonder if "owlam" doesn't mean eternity and the Jewish Scholars that translated the Septuagint from the the Hebrews texts around 250 BC. used the word "aion" in place of "owlam" how can "aion" mean eternity? I don't think it can. While looking at these passages I did come across some interesting background info on the word "Aion" in Kittle's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. I'll paste it for your consideration.

αἰών aiṓn [age, aeon] <G165>,
αἰώνιος aiṓnios [eternal] <G166>

aiṓn.
A. The Nonbiblical Use.
Meanings area. “vital force,” b. “lifetime,” c. “age” or “generation,” d. “time,” and e. “eternity.”

*Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: Abridged in One Volume.

The term is used in philosophical discussions of time, usually for a span of time as distinct from time as such (chrónos), though for Plato it is timeless eternity in contrast to chrónos as its moving image in earthly time (cf. Philo). In the Hellenistic world Aiṓn becomes the name of the god of eternity.


This is interesting because it tells us that at the time the NT was written the Greeks had a god of eternity that they called Aion. I think one has to wonder how much this affected the understanding to word Aion.

Very interesting Butch. This can of worms has lots of real wriggly ones in it.

Having looked at the word "Aionios" and seeing that it is used of things that have ended I conclude that it does not mean eternal. However, we cannot leave it there. If it doesn't mean eternal are the translations of it that speak of it being eternal wrong? Not necessarily. "Aion" typically is translated "age". An age is an unspecified period of time. This, I believe is the definition of "Aionios." I think if this is correct it should fit everywhere the word is used. When God speaks to Abraham and says that circumcision will be a covenant "Aionion" we can understand that the length of time was not given to Abraham, that God was saying until time unknown.

If we define it as "Time unknown" we can see how this term could be used of a specific period of time that would come to an end yet on the other hand it could be used of a period of time that will never come to an end, simply because the time is not specified.

Also, I'd like to look into the usage of "aion" as an idiom. We use the word forever as an idiom in English. Consider these,
"Man he's slow, he's taking forever to eat" or "Man, this lecture has gone on for forever and a day."

I need to chew on this for a bit thanks mate.
 
11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 8:11-12

Notice in this verse it says the sons of the Kingdom will be cast into outer darkness...

again -

49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 13:49-50


Jesus plainly says: they will be cast into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

... wailing and gnashing of teeth is associated with pain and discomfort, and those who are conscience to experience that pain.

Please consider these scriptures in this study.


JLB
 
Butch, I can't compare either the Hebrews or the Luke scriptures to the Genesis scripture because I think they are talking about two different things.
I can compare Hebrews and Luke to these others though. However....
The Exodus scriptures seems to give a description that clarifies what that time period of forever (age-during) is, "throughout your generations", in your generations, their generations?

Hi Deb,

I wasn't suggesting we compare the Hebrews and Luke passages, I posted them to show that the Law had come to an end. The passages in Exodus speak of ordinances in the Mosaic Law and the Genesis passage refers to circumcision. According to Paul all of these came to an end, yet, according to our English translations there were to go on forever. They can't both have come to an end and continue forever, therefore, I have to conclude that either Paul is wrong and the Law didn't end or the translation of "owlam" and "aionios" is incorrect. I believe Paul is correct and have drawn the conclusion that the translation is wrong. Does that make sense?
 
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell." Matthew 18:8-9

and again -

22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Does the doctrine of Conditional Immortality teach that there is a hell fire?

I'm still learning about this doctrine.


JLB
 
"And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell." Matthew 18:8-9

and again -

22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22


Does the doctrine of Conditional Immortality teach that there is a hell fire?

I'm still learning about this doctrine.

JLB

Yes it does.
 
Hi Deb and Agua,

This is good. The passage from Dan 2:44 uses and Arabic word "alam" which is the equivalent of the Hebrew word "owlam" and in Luke 1:33 Luke used the Greek word "Aion" which is typically translated age.

There is no part of the Old Testament that was ever written in Arabic. Chapters 1-7 of Daniel are written in Aramaic.

If you are going to quote another source, you need to do so accurately.

αἰών aiṓn [age, aeon] <G165>,
αἰώνιος aiṓnios [eternal] <G166>
aiṓn.
A. The Nonbiblical Use.
Meanings area. “vital force,” b. “lifetime,” c. “age” or “generation,” d. “time,” and e. “eternity.”

*Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: Abridged in One Volume.

The term is used in philosophical discussions of time, usually for a span of time as distinct from time as such (chrónos), though for Plato it is timeless eternity in contrast to chrónos as its moving image in earthly time (cf. Philo). In the Hellenistic world Aiṓn becomes the name of the god of eternity.

This is interesting because it tells us that at the time the NT was written the Greeks had a god of eternity that they called Aion. I think one has to wonder how much this affected the understanding to word Aion.

If you are going to quote another source, you need to do so accurately.

Are you aware that your statement is seemingly making Christianity a polytheistic religion?
Are you aware that the Greek of Plato is different than the Koine Greek of the NT? Therefore citing a pagan philosopher on an obscure point has no bearing on the subject and there is no relationship between αἰών and chronos.

edited Personal

It is good that you seek to get into deeper meaning in the Bible, but it is not good if you make such basic errors as you did above. However, I did all the research necessary for you or anyone else to research and come to a conclusion in the paste below:

In two posts HERE and HERE I took EVERY verse that had the Greek word αἰώνιος in it. The 69 verses are spread over two posts containing 71 usages, and there is no omission of any verse in the entire Greek NT that has the word αἰώνιος in it.

I cannot tell you if you are right or wrong. However I can, and did supply you with the tools whereby you could make an informed decision. Please us them
 
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There is no part of the Old Testament that was ever written in Arabic. Chapters 1-7 of Daniel are written in Aramaic.

If you are going to quote another source, you need to do so accurately.



If you are going to quote another source, you need to do so accurately.

Are you aware that your statement is seemingly making Christianity a polytheistic religion?
Are you aware that the Greek of Plato is different than the Koine Greek of the NT? Therefore citing a pagan philosopher on an obscure point has no bearing on the subject and there is no relationship between αἰών and chronos.

I am REALLY NOT trying to make a personal dig or belittle you in any fashion, but your errors in the post you made are so egregious, that it requires further comment.
Because you have no formal training in either Greek or Hebrew, it is best that you do not dabble in those languages. And yes, "dabble" is the correct word. Your post contains two major errors, and anyone else on another forum would have held you up for scathing ridicule. I am not that way.

It is good that you seek to get into deeper meaning in the Bible, but it is not good if you make such basic errors as you did above. However, I did all the research necessary for you or anyone else to research and come to a conclusion in the paste below:



I cannot tell you if you are right or wrong. However I can, and did supply you with the tools whereby you could make an informed decision. Please us them



"There is no part of the Old Testament that was ever written in Arabic. Chapters 1-7 of Daniel are written in Aramaic."

OK, I made an error typing Arabic by mistake, I hardly think it's egregious


Can you tell me what I quoted inaccurately? What I posted from Kittle was cut and pasted so I don't know how it could be inaccurate. I didn't make any claims about what it was other than to say I found some background info to consider.

I saw what you posted in the two links you gave and I appreciate it. I think it needs to be expanded beyond the NT since Jesus and the apostles frequently appealed to the OT. I also have come to a different conclusion just looking at NT passages that you posted.

I'd like to ask a question if I may, you said they all mean eternal, what did you base that conclusion on?
 
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edited


Can you tell me what I quoted inaccurately? What I posted from Kittle was cut and pasted so I don't know how it could be inaccurate. I didn't make any claims about what it was other than to say I found some background info to consider.

The same error asin the first post was repeated

I saw what you posted in the two links you gave and I appreciate it. I think it needs to be expanded beyond the NT since Jesus and the apostles frequently appealed to the OT. I also have come to a different conclusion just looking at NT passages.

I am glad that you appreciate that. I am also NOT attempting to mislead you or "convert" you. What I am doing is to give you and others tool to help you come to an understanding.

I can also do the same thing with the OT as I did to the NT, but I doubt that it will mean anything to you becau7se the focus of the meaning of "forever" has been on verses from the NT, and not the OT.
 
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