Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[TimothyW]

Hi Timothy,

Much appreciated. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to hear how you came to hold this position. I think hearing about the learning process can be really interesting and insightful.

Regards,
DI

I think that it is important that my beliefs accurately reflect "what I believe is true". So I actively tested all of my beliefs against what the Bible says. Like nearly everyone else, I believed that good people go to heaven when they die and bad people went to hell. After I became a Christian (29 years ago, when I was 20) I modified this view only slightly, so my belief became "Christians go to heaven when they die and non Christians go to hell". But I always wanted to test my my beliefs against what the Bible says, assuming only that the Bible is true. I tested a number of my beliefs (whether alcohol is forbidden, questions about baptism, church attendance, the tithe, etc.), and then the question of hell came up. One pastor that I like (Glen Moyer) had a lot of trouble when he admitted that he questioned the traditional view of Eternal Torment in Hell. He was forced to resign from his denomination. This caused me to question whether what I believed was correct or not, I still believed the traditional view. But being unwilling to believe something that I did not KNOW was true was troubling me, so I looked into the Bible (as was my habit) to investigate and find out which view was correct, which had more support. I read through the Bible, reading what it said, making an active attempt to not read into the Bible either way. The Bible has overwhelming support for Conditional Immortality, and no solid support for Eternal Conscious Torment.

 

[JLB]

I think that it is important that my beliefs accurately reflect "what I believe is true". So I actively tested all of my beliefs against what the Bible says. Like nearly everyone else, I believed that good people go to heaven when they die and bad people went to hell. After I became a Christian (29 years ago, when I was 20) I modified this view only slightly, so my belief became "Christians go to heaven when they die and non Christians go to hell". But I always wanted to test my my beliefs against what the Bible says, assuming only that the Bible is true. I tested a number of my beliefs (whether alcohol is forbidden, questions about baptism, church attendance, the tithe, etc.), and then the question of hell came up. One pastor that I like (Glen Moyer) had a lot of trouble when he admitted that he questioned the traditional view of Eternal Torment in Hell. He was forced to resign from his denomination. This caused me to question whether what I believed was correct or not, I still believed the traditional view. But being unwilling to believe something that I did not KNOW was true was troubling me, so I looked into the Bible (as was my habit) to investigate and find out which view was correct, which had more support. I read through the Bible, reading what it said, making an active attempt to not read into the Bible either way. The Bible has overwhelming support for Conditional Immortality, and no solid support for Eternal Conscious Torment.

Thank you for sharing. You seem to be very honest in your approach to bible doctrine.

JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I think that it is important that my beliefs accurately reflect "what I believe is true". So I actively tested all of my beliefs against what the Bible says. Like nearly everyone else, I believed that good people go to heaven when they die and bad people went to hell. After I became a Christian (29 years ago, when I was 20) I modified this view only slightly, so my belief became "Christians go to heaven when they die and non Christians go to hell". But I always wanted to test my my beliefs against what the Bible says, assuming only that the Bible is true. I tested a number of my beliefs (whether alcohol is forbidden, questions about baptism, church attendance, the tithe, etc.), and then the question of hell came up. One pastor that I like (Glen Moyer) had a lot of trouble when he admitted that he questioned the traditional view of Eternal Torment in Hell. He was forced to resign from his denomination. This caused me to question whether what I believed was correct or not, I still believed the traditional view. But being unwilling to believe something that I did not KNOW was true was troubling me, so I looked into the Bible (as was my habit) to investigate and find out which view was correct, which had more support. I read through the Bible, reading what it said, making an active attempt to not read into the Bible either way. The Bible has overwhelming support for Conditional Immortality, and no solid support for Eternal Conscious Torment.

Thanks for sharing your story a bit Timothy. Mine was similar, though it wasn't a teacher who led me to first look into it.

I was studying the passage about the Rich Man and Lazarus and began to see that this didn't teach what I thought it did about the final punishment, and from there I decided that I needed to look at it afresh and found Scripture to actually teach Conditional Immortality.

 

[JLB]

Thanks for sharing your story a bit Timothy. Mine was similar, though it wasn't a teacher who led me to first look into it.

I was studying the passage about the Rich Man and Lazarus and began to see that this didn't teach what I thought it did about the final punishment, and from there I decided that I needed to look at it afresh and found Scripture to actually teach Conditional Immortality.

Please share what you discovered about the rich man and Lazarus, and the associated scriptures that teach us about Conditional Immortality.

JLB

 

[By Grace]

Hi JLB,

Actually, this is not an issue that my position needs to address. I understand that some CI's hold a different view of the soul and spirit. Since I hold that man is a physical being that is animated by the breath of life you statement doesn't bear on my position, I would simply address it as with the first death. At the second death the wicked are tossed into the Lake of fire, the body burns up and the spirit, which belongs to God returns to Him. This fits nicely with what I believe the Scriptures teach and it also fits nicely with what Jesus said.

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 NKJ)

The passage speaks of the body and soul being destroyed, not the spirit. It fits my belief nicely.

I would like to ask you a question since you've posted this passage from Luke several times,

36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:36 NKJ)

You've presented this passage and said that angels can't die. I would like to ask you, why can't angels die?

There are many different terms being tossed around here, such as "sons" and "perpetual" and having been dealing with Mormons for eons, I am very quick to spot what seems to be "convertible language". By that term, I am posting about a situation whereby people can talk "at" another poster, but not talk to another poster. Convertible language is a means to disguise a very different meaning by another, and in doing so creating the illusion that they are talking about the same thing. The Mormon jesus is far different than the Christian Jesus of the Bible.

So while I am not accusing the user of the terms "sons" and "perpetual" of being deceptive in any manner, especially like the Mormons do, I believe that it is important to have common terms with common understandings. That is my opinion.

As to the study of angelology as it relates to conditional immortality, because angels are created beings who have a spiritual body, and reside in the spiritual realm, as opposed to our physical bodies and our life in the physical realm, it is important to understand that the resurrected body of humans will be (according to Scriptures 1 Corinthians 15:33-58) just like the resurrected body of Jesus Christ. Therefore as Jesus did at the end of John, and in the beginning of Acts, in some manner, we will also be in a similar state.

With that in mind, I present this as a way of getting clarity in the subject at hand:

As Ryrie writes,

One has only to peruse the amount of space devoted to angelology in standard theologies to demonstrate this. This disregard for the doctrine may simply be neglect or it may indicate a tacit rejection of this area of biblical teaching. Even Calvin was cautious in discussing this subject (Institutes, I, xiv, 3).2

Though the doctrine of angels holds an important place in the Word of God, it is often viewed as a difficult subject because, while there is abundant mention of angels in the Bible, the nature of this revelation is without the same kind of explicit description we often find with other subjects developed in the Bible:

Every reference to angels is incidental to some other topic. They are not treated in themselves. God’s revelation never aims at informing us regarding the nature of angels. When they are mentioned, it is always in order to inform us further about God, what he does, and how he does it. Since details about angels are not significant for that purpose, they tend to be omitted.3 ...

• 
  
  
  • 
    Angel

Though other words are used for these spiritual beings, the primary word used in the Bible is angel. Three other terms undoubtedly referring to angels are seraphim (Isa. 6:2), cherubim (Ezek. 10:1-3), and ministering spirits, which is perhaps more of a description than a name (Heb. 1:13). More will be said on this later when dealing with the classification of angels.

The Hebrew word for angel is mal`ach, and the Greek word is angelos. Both words mean “messenger” and describe one who executes the purpose and will of the one whom they serve. The context must determine if a human messenger is in view, or one of the celestial beings called “angels,” or if it is being used of the second Person of the Trinity as will be discussed below. The holy angels are messengers of God, serving Him and doing His bidding. The fallen angels serve Satan, the god of this world (aiwn, “age”) (2 Cor. 4:4)....

• 
  
  
  • 
    Holy Ones

The unfallen angels are also spoken of as “holy ones” (Ps. 89:5, 7). The reason is twofold. First, being the creation of a holy God, they were created perfect without any flaw or sin. Second, they are called holy because of their purpose. They were “set apart” by God and for God as His servants and as attendants to His holiness (cf. Isa. 6). ...

Angels, however, have limitations compared to man, particularly in future relationships. Angels are not created in the image of God, therefore, they do not share man’s glorious destiny of redemption in Christ. At the consummation of the age, redeemed man will be exalted above angels (14)

• 
  
  
  • 
    Their Personalities

There are several qualities common to personality all of which angels possess—personal existence, intellect, emotion, and will. As personalities we see them interacted with over and over again through the Bible. Ryrie writes:

Angels then qualify as personalities because they have these aspects of intelligence, emotions, and will. This is true of both the good and evil angels. Good angels, Satan, and demons possess intelligence (Matt. 8:29; 2 Cor. 11:3; 1 Peter 1:12). Good angels, Satan, and demons show emotions (Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Rev. 12:17). Good angels, Satan, and demons demonstrate that they have wills (Luke 8:28-31; 2 Tim. 2:26; Jude 6). Therefore, they can be said to be persons. The fact that they do not have human bodies does not affect their being personalities (any more than it does with God).20

FOOTNOTES
2 Charles C. Ryrie, Basic Theology, Victor Books, Wheaton, IL, 1987, chapter 17, electronic media.
3 Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1983, p. 434.
14 Paul Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology, Moody Press, Chicago, 1996, electronic media
20 Ryrie, p. 125
​

I post this because I believe that it is germane to CI, and I hope that it clarifies some things

https://bible.org/article/angelology-doctrine-angels#P92_4803​

 

[Doulos Iesou]

There are many different terms being tossed around here, such as "sons" and "perpetual" and having been dealing with Mormons for eons, I am very quick to spot what seems to be "convertible language". By that term, I am posting about a situation whereby people can talk "at" another poster, but not talk to another poster. Convertible language is a means to disguise a very different meaning by another, and in doing so creating the illusion that they are talking about the same thing. The Mormon jesus is far different than the Christian Jesus of the Bible.

So while I am not accusing the user of the terms "sons" and "perpetual" of being deceptive in any manner, especially like the Mormons do, I believe that it is important to have common terms with common understandings. That is my opinion.

As to the study of angelology as it relates to conditional immortality, because angels are created beings who have a spiritual body, and reside in the spiritual realm, as opposed to our physical bodies and our life in the physical realm, it is important to understand that the resurrected body of humans will be (according to Scriptures 1 Corinthians 15:33-58) just like the resurrected body of Jesus Christ. Therefore as Jesus did at the end of John, and in the beginning of Acts, in some manner, we will also be in a similar state.

With that in mind, I present this as a way of getting clarity in the subject at hand:

As Ryrie writes,

One has only to peruse the amount of space devoted to angelology in standard theologies to demonstrate this. This disregard for the doctrine may simply be neglect or it may indicate a tacit rejection of this area of biblical teaching. Even Calvin was cautious in discussing this subject (Institutes, I, xiv, 3).2

Though the doctrine of angels holds an important place in the Word of God, it is often viewed as a difficult subject because, while there is abundant mention of angels in the Bible, the nature of this revelation is without the same kind of explicit description we often find with other subjects developed in the Bible:

Every reference to angels is incidental to some other topic. They are not treated in themselves. God’s revelation never aims at informing us regarding the nature of angels. When they are mentioned, it is always in order to inform us further about God, what he does, and how he does it. Since details about angels are not significant for that purpose, they tend to be omitted.3 ...

• 
  
  
  • 
    Angel

Though other words are used for these spiritual beings, the primary word used in the Bible is angel. Three other terms undoubtedly referring to angels are seraphim (Isa. 6:2), cherubim (Ezek. 10:1-3), and ministering spirits, which is perhaps more of a description than a name (Heb. 1:13). More will be said on this later when dealing with the classification of angels.

The Hebrew word for angel is mal`ach, and the Greek word is angelos. Both words mean “messenger” and describe one who executes the purpose and will of the one whom they serve. The context must determine if a human messenger is in view, or one of the celestial beings called “angels,” or if it is being used of the second Person of the Trinity as will be discussed below. The holy angels are messengers of God, serving Him and doing His bidding. The fallen angels serve Satan, the god of this world (aiwn, “age”) (2 Cor. 4:4)....

• 
  
  
  • 
    Holy Ones

The unfallen angels are also spoken of as “holy ones” (Ps. 89:5, 7). The reason is twofold. First, being the creation of a holy God, they were created perfect without any flaw or sin. Second, they are called holy because of their purpose. They were “set apart” by God and for God as His servants and as attendants to His holiness (cf. Isa. 6). ...
Angels, however, have limitations compared to man, particularly in future relationships. Angels are not created in the image of God, therefore, they do not share man’s glorious destiny of redemption in Christ. At the consummation of the age, redeemed man will be exalted above angels (14)
https://bible.org/article/angelology-doctrine-angels#P92_4803

• 
  
  
  • 
    Their Personalities

There are several qualities common to personality all of which angels possess—personal existence, intellect, emotion, and will. As personalities we see them interacted with over and over again through the Bible. Ryrie writes:
Angels then qualify as personalities because they have these aspects of intelligence, emotions, and will. This is true of both the good and evil angels. Good angels, Satan, and demons possess intelligence (Matt. 8:29; 2 Cor. 11:3; 1 Peter 1:12). Good angels, Satan, and demons show emotions (Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Rev. 12:17). Good angels, Satan, and demons demonstrate that they have wills (Luke 8:28-31; 2 Tim. 2:26; Jude 6). Therefore, they can be said to be persons. The fact that they do not have human bodies does not affect their being personalities (any more than it does with God).20
FOOTNOTES
2 Charles C. Ryrie, Basic Theology, Victor Books, Wheaton, IL, 1987, chapter 17, electronic media.
3 Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1983, p. 434.
14 Paul Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology, Moody Press, Chicago, 1996, electronic media
20 Ryrie, p. 125
​

I post this because I believe that it is germane to CI, and I hope that it clarifies some things

The issue of angels has been addressed quite enough in this thread already and myself and Free have chimed in to stop the debate on this topic.

The doctrine of Conditional Immortality chiefly concerns humans and not angels. There is actually some differences among our numbers as to the fate of angels and one can believe in the everlasting existence of angels and embrace Conditionalism.

If you or others want to discuss the topic more, you may start a new thread about it in the debate section.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you "Jesus' Servant". I also commit to elevating the discussion and treating everyone with dignity, respect and love in this thread. If I have stumbled in the past, I apologize, it was never my intention to disrespect anyone.

Hey Tim, you old Biker Dude. I was thinking that this is your kind of thread and was going to get in touch with you and here you are. Great! I know you have a lot to share, welcome friend.

 

[JLB]

There are many different terms being tossed around here, such as "sons" and "perpetual" and having been dealing with Mormons for eons, I am very quick to spot what seems to be "convertible language". By that term, I am posting about a situation whereby people can talk "at" another poster, but not talk to another poster. Convertible language is a means to disguise a very different meaning by another, and in doing so creating the illusion that they are talking about the same thing. The Mormon jesus is far different than the Christian Jesus of the Bible.

So while I am not accusing the user of the terms "sons" and "perpetual" of being deceptive in any manner, especially like the Mormons do, I believe that it is important to have common terms with common understandings. That is my opinion.

As to the study of angelology as it relates to conditional immortality, because angels are created beings who have a spiritual body, and reside in the spiritual realm, as opposed to our physical bodies and our life in the physical realm, it is important to understand that the resurrected body of humans will be (according to Scriptures 1 Corinthians 15:33-58) just like the resurrected body of Jesus Christ. Therefore as Jesus did at the end of John, and in the beginning of Acts, in some manner, we will also be in a similar state.

With that in mind, I present this as a way of getting clarity in the subject at hand:

As Ryrie writes,

One has only to peruse the amount of space devoted to angelology in standard theologies to demonstrate this. This disregard for the doctrine may simply be neglect or it may indicate a tacit rejection of this area of biblical teaching. Even Calvin was cautious in discussing this subject (Institutes, I, xiv, 3).2

Though the doctrine of angels holds an important place in the Word of God, it is often viewed as a difficult subject because, while there is abundant mention of angels in the Bible, the nature of this revelation is without the same kind of explicit description we often find with other subjects developed in the Bible:

Every reference to angels is incidental to some other topic. They are not treated in themselves. God’s revelation never aims at informing us regarding the nature of angels. When they are mentioned, it is always in order to inform us further about God, what he does, and how he does it. Since details about angels are not significant for that purpose, they tend to be omitted.3 ...

• 
  
  
  • 
    Angel

Though other words are used for these spiritual beings, the primary word used in the Bible is angel. Three other terms undoubtedly referring to angels are seraphim (Isa. 6:2), cherubim (Ezek. 10:1-3), and ministering spirits, which is perhaps more of a description than a name (Heb. 1:13). More will be said on this later when dealing with the classification of angels.

The Hebrew word for angel is mal`ach, and the Greek word is angelos. Both words mean “messenger” and describe one who executes the purpose and will of the one whom they serve. The context must determine if a human messenger is in view, or one of the celestial beings called “angels,” or if it is being used of the second Person of the Trinity as will be discussed below. The holy angels are messengers of God, serving Him and doing His bidding. The fallen angels serve Satan, the god of this world (aiwn, “age”) (2 Cor. 4:4)....

• 
  
  
  • 
    Holy Ones

The unfallen angels are also spoken of as “holy ones” (Ps. 89:5, 7). The reason is twofold. First, being the creation of a holy God, they were created perfect without any flaw or sin. Second, they are called holy because of their purpose. They were “set apart” by God and for God as His servants and as attendants to His holiness (cf. Isa. 6). ...
Angels, however, have limitations compared to man, particularly in future relationships. Angels are not created in the image of God, therefore, they do not share man’s glorious destiny of redemption in Christ. At the consummation of the age, redeemed man will be exalted above angels (14)
https://bible.org/article/angelology-doctrine-angels#P92_4803

• 
  
  
  • 
    Their Personalities

There are several qualities common to personality all of which angels possess—personal existence, intellect, emotion, and will. As personalities we see them interacted with over and over again through the Bible. Ryrie writes:
Angels then qualify as personalities because they have these aspects of intelligence, emotions, and will. This is true of both the good and evil angels. Good angels, Satan, and demons possess intelligence (Matt. 8:29; 2 Cor. 11:3; 1 Peter 1:12). Good angels, Satan, and demons show emotions (Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Rev. 12:17). Good angels, Satan, and demons demonstrate that they have wills (Luke 8:28-31; 2 Tim. 2:26; Jude 6). Therefore, they can be said to be persons. The fact that they do not have human bodies does not affect their being personalities (any more than it does with God).20
FOOTNOTES
2 Charles C. Ryrie, Basic Theology, Victor Books, Wheaton, IL, 1987, chapter 17, electronic media.
3 Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1983, p. 434.
14 Paul Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology, Moody Press, Chicago, 1996, electronic media
20 Ryrie, p. 125
​

I post this because I believe that it is germane to CI, and I hope that it clarifies some things

Thanks for your input.

I have never heard of the doctrine of Conditional Immortality or Annilitionism before.

Are these Mormon doctrines?


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

Thanks for your input.

I have never heard of the doctrine of Conditional Immortality or Annilitionism before.

Are these Mormon doctrines?


JLB

I know that you didn't ask me, but no. Conditional Immortality and Annihilationism are not Mormon doctrines.

Conditional Immortality means that people can only receive immortality under certain conditions. Conditional Immortality means that we can only receive eternal life as a condition of believing in Jesus Christ, "Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". That is the last part of John 3:16. That statement from the Bible exactly describes Conditional Immortality. But not just that statement in John 3:16, Conditional Immortality is found throughout the Bible. Conditional Immortality is a Christian Doctrine, and it is opposed to the doctrine that everyone automatically has Immortality regardless of their position in Christ. Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) holds that everyone is immortal, although some are immortal in hell undergoing torment.

Annihilationism is the doctrine that the lost are destroyed instead of being kept undestroyed and in torment in hell. This is also a Christian doctrine, because there are numerous passages throughout the Bible that say that the lost will be destroyed. Annihilate is just another word for destroy. Annihilationists do not believe that every atom must be completely destroyed in order for the person to be destroyed. Oftentimes, opponents of Annihilationism point out that true annihilation of matter is impossible, because matter cannot be created nor destroyed. This is a matter of physics, and it is not what we mean by annihilation. The destruction of the person as a person qualifies as annihilation, or destruction. A plain reading of scripture forces the conclusion that the lost are destroyed.

Conditional Immortality are two sides to the same coin. Conditional Immortality tells what happens to those who receive Immortality, Annihilationism tells what happens to those who do not receive Immortality.

I am not Mormon, but I believe that most Mormons hold to the traditional view of eternal conscious torment in hell. That in itself does not prove nor disprove ECT. Most Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the lost are destroyed. That also does not prove nor disprove Annihilationism. What really matters for Bible Believing Christians is what the Bible says about the fate of the lost.

 

[agua.]

Thanks for your input.

I have never heard of the doctrine of Conditional Immortality or Annilitionism before.

Are these Mormon doctrines?


JLB

Sorry JLB I just can't resist sometimes mate.

Are these Immortal soul and eternal conscious torment Catholic doctrines ?

 

[jeff77]

I have been trying to understand the different aspects to CI. It is clear to me that we are not immortal to begin with. We all die and some in the CI camp say the soul lives in an intermediate state, some say the body and soul are not separate, therefore there is no intermediate state. Then there is the resurrection of both the saved and unsaved. Not only are they raised from the dead but they are raised immortal. At this point both saved and unsaved are immortal. It is clear to me that the saved not only have immortal bodies and souls but also the fact that they will be with the Lord for eternity is also something that the word immortal could be describing. Now for the unsaved who are also immortal are going to experience the second death. Both their bodies and souls will be destroyed. But wait a second....doesn't scripture say they are immortal? What about them is immortal? This is where I don't understand CI. The fact that the unsaved are immortal indicates to me that the words death and destroy can have a different meaning than cease to exist.

I am thinking of starting a thread in a week or two about how does a the doctrine of CI vs. ECT change the way we look at Christianity and how do each of these doctrines affect our attempts to lead the lost to Christ. Just something to think about for now, maybe wait a while longer before starting it.

 

[JLB]

I know that you didn't ask me, but no. Conditional Immortality and Annihilationism are not Mormon doctrines.

Conditional Immortality means that people can only receive immortality under certain conditions. Conditional Immortality means that we can only receive eternal life as a condition of believing in Jesus Christ, "Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". That is the last part of John 3:16. That statement from the Bible exactly describes Conditional Immortality. But not just that statement in John 3:16, Conditional Immortality is found throughout the Bible. Conditional Immortality is a Christian Doctrine, and it is opposed to the doctrine that everyone automatically has Immortality regardless of their position in Christ. Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) holds that everyone is immortal, although some are immortal in hell undergoing torment.

Annihilationism is the doctrine that the lost are destroyed instead of being kept undestroyed and in torment in hell. This is also a Christian doctrine, because there are numerous passages throughout the Bible that say that the lost will be destroyed. Annihilate is just another word for destroy. Annihilationists do not believe that every atom must be completely destroyed in order for the person to be destroyed. Oftentimes, opponents of Annihilationism point out that true annihilation of matter is impossible, because matter cannot be created nor destroyed. This is a matter of physics, and it is not what we mean by annihilation. The destruction of the person as a person qualifies as annihilation, or destruction. A plain reading of scripture forces the conclusion that the lost are destroyed.

Conditional Immortality are two sides to the same coin. Conditional Immortality tells what happens to those who receive Immortality, Annihilationism tells what happens to those who do not receive Immortality.

I am not Mormon, but I believe that most Mormons hold to the traditional view of eternal conscious torment in hell. That in itself does not prove nor disprove ECT. Most Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the lost are destroyed. That also does not prove nor disprove Annihilationism. What really matters for Bible Believing Christians is what the Bible says about the fate of the lost.

Conditional Immortality means that people can only receive immortality under certain conditions.

I agree, for the most part with this statement, as Jesus said -

the righteous into eternal life.

Jesus made a distinction as to who would be granted eternal life, and who would not.

The righteous would be granted eternal life.

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46

However, I ask you to consider that eternal life also has an element of quality to it as opposed to everlasting [eternal] death.

Eternal life is knowing the True God. John 17:11

Eternal death would then be, not knowing God.

Eternal death would not necessarily be; "cease to exist", but rather "cease to be connected" to God, or existing in a state of being without the experience of being connected to God.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Sorry JLB I just can't resist sometimes mate.

Are these Immortal soul and eternal conscious torment Catholic doctrines ?

Let's see.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41,46

Who created the everlasting fire, God or the Vatican?

Who banished the wicked into the everlasting fire, God or the Vatican?

Who decreed that these cursed would go into everlasting punishment, God or the Vatican?

The answer to these questions is where this doctrine came from.

You decide.


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I have been trying to understand the different aspects to CI. It is clear to me that we are not immortal to begin with. We all die and some in the CI camp say the soul lives in an intermediate state, some say the body and soul are not separate, therefore there is no intermediate state. Then there is the resurrection of both the saved and unsaved. Not only are they raised from the dead but they are raised immortal. At this point both saved and unsaved are immortal. It is clear to me that the saved not only have immortal bodies and souls but also the fact that they will be with the Lord for eternity is also something that the word immortal could be describing. Now for the unsaved who are also immortal are going to experience the second death. Both their bodies and souls will be destroyed. But wait a second....doesn't scripture say they are immortal? What about them is immortal? This is where I don't understand CI. The fact that the unsaved are immortal indicates to me that the words death and destroy can have a different meaning than cease to exist.

Hi Jeff,

Could you perhaps find me a text where it explicitly says that the wicked are raised immortal? 1 Corinthians 15 doesn't refer to them at all, but only the immortal bodies of the saved.

Once I am able to show you that this isn't the case at all, I think you'll be able to see why Conditionalism has such a strong argument.

I am thinking of starting a thread in a week or two about how does a the doctrine of CI vs. ECT change the way we look at Christianity and how do each of these doctrines affect our attempts to lead the lost to Christ. Just something to think about for now, maybe wait a while longer before starting it.

That sounds good to me, I would love to participate in it.

Question to get you thinking a bit. In the book of Acts, how many times did the Apostles mention the idea of eternal torment in their preaching to the lost?

 

[TimothyW]

JLB[/quote]

I agree, for the most part with this statement, as Jesus said -

the righteous into eternal life.

Jesus made a distinction as to who would be granted eternal life, and who would not.

The righteous would be granted eternal life.

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46

However, I ask you to consider that eternal life also has an element of quality to it as opposed to everlasting [eternal] death.

Eternal life is knowing the True God. John 17:11

Eternal death would then be, not knowing God.

Eternal death would not necessarily be; "cease to exist", but rather "cease to be connected" to God, or existing in a state of being without the experience of being connected to God.



JLB

You asked me to consider that eternal life has an element of quality to to, and I certainly agree with that. I'm not following your logic that that then means that those who do not have eternal life continue to exist in a state of being. It seems to me that if they continue to exist forever, they have eternal life. "Quality" is not a requirement for eternal life, even though those who have eternal life have a high quality eternal life. If the Bible meant that everyone has eternal life, it would not say that eternal life is a gift to those who believe.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I agree, for the most part with this statement, as Jesus said -

the righteous into eternal life.

Jesus made a distinction as to who would be granted eternal life, and who would not.

The righteous would be granted eternal life.

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:46

However, I ask you to consider that eternal life also has an element of quality to it as opposed to everlasting [eternal] death.

Eternal life is knowing the True God. John 17:11

Eternal death would then be, not knowing God.

Eternal death would not necessarily be; "cease to exist", but rather "cease to be connected" to God, or existing in a state of being without the experience of being connected to God.



JLB

I wonder when death was redefined to be "cease to be connected," rather than "ceasing to live." How does one who is dead have immortality, isn't this a contradiction? It's makes the descriptions of perishing or being destroyed or dying meaningless.

 

[JLB]

I wonder when death was redefined to be "cease to be connected," rather than "ceasing to live." How does one who is dead have immortality, isn't this a contradiction? It's makes the descriptions of perishing or being destroyed or dying meaningless.

On the contrary, it makes the descriptions of dying or perishing or being destroyed, take on a meaning that has its foundation in the words of Jesus.

Please consider these words.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:41,46


There are two points that I would ask you to consider:

1. The same Greek work is used to describe those who suffer everlasting punishment as those who inherit eternal life. Everlasting or Eternal. Strongs # 166 - Aionios
2. The phrase "prepared for the devil and his angels" is extremely pertinent to this study and understanding the reality of the fate of those who are sentenced to everlasting torment the same as the devil and his angels.

Here is the verse that shows the reality of the eternal, perpetual, unending torment of the devil and his angels.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

I would find difficult to believe that you would disagree with this verse from Revelation that teaches about the never ending torment that will be experienced by the devil and his angels.


However this is the same exact fate that will be experienced by those whom Jesus sentences to everlasting fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Both the unrighteous and the devil and his angels will suffer everlasting torment in an everlasting fire and will experience everlasting torment day and night without rest.

I personally do not see where there is any phrase in these scriptures that would indicate that the devil and his angels or the unrighteous will " cease to exist"


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

Hello JLB, As far as I'm concerned, you are free to believe whatever you want. I believe the plain meaning of scripture that says that the lost will perish. I believe the bulk of scripture best supports that view.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

On the contrary, it makes the descriptions of dying or perishing or being destroyed, take on a meaning that has its foundation in the words of Jesus.

Words have meaning, you can't just reinterpret them however you please.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away intoeverlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:41,46
There are two points that I would ask you to consider:

1. The same Greek work is used to describe those who suffer everlasting punishment as those who inherit eternal life. Everlasting or Eternal. Strongs # 166 - Aionios
2. The phrase "prepared for the devil and his angels" is extremely pertinent to this study and understanding the reality of the fate of those who are sentenced to everlasting torment the same as the devil and his angels.

Here is the verse that shows the reality of the eternal, perpetual, unending torment of the devil and his angels.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

I would find difficult to believe that you would disagree with this verse from Revelation that teaches about the never ending torment that will be experienced by the devil and his angels.

These texts have already been addressed in post #35 and #7.

You guys keep posting it, thinking it is making some kind of new and insightful argument, but we have long since refuted these interpretations.

However this is the same exact fate that will be experienced by those whom Jesus sentences to everlasting fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Both the unrighteous and the devil and his angels will suffer everlasting torment in an everlasting fire and will experience everlasting torment day and night without rest.

I personally do not see where there is any phrase in these scriptures that would indicate that the devil and his angels or the unrighteous will " cease to exist"

It does say that they will perish, die, and be destroyed both body and soul. Seems pretty clear.

 

[JLB]

Hello JLB, As far as I'm concerned, you are free to believe whatever you want. I believe the plain meaning of scripture that says that the lost will perish. I believe the bulk of scripture best supports that view.

Brother,

Clearly Jesus sentences the lost to everlasting fire that has been prepared before hand for the purpose of tormenting forever and ever.

Please show me from this scripture where there is a "cease to exist" condition being taught by Jesus.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:41,46

Everlasting destruction means just that; forever being destroyed.

In addition, the one suffering everlasting destruction will be tormented day and night without rest.

Please show me from this scripture where you see Jesus referring to the one being punished as ceasing to exist.


JLB