Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[Butch5]

Angels

Yes, angels means messengers, which ones?

 

[Butch5]

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written , Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54

In this scripture in becomes clear that what is corruptible is mans body, not his spirit.

An incorruptible body to clothe man's incorruptible spirit.

JLB

JLB,

Please establish where Scripture teaches that man has a spirit. Just because a passage says the spirit of man doesn't necessitate that the spirit "is" man. The breath of life is a spirit of man because it shows possession. However, it isn't the man, it belongs to God.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Please establish where Scripture teaches that man has a spirit. Just because a passage says the spirit of man doesn't necessitate that the spirit "is" man. The breath of life is a spirit of man because it shows possession. However, it isn't the man, it belongs to God.

If you choose to ignore what the many scriptures plainly teach then that is your choice.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

In this scripture we are taught that There is God's Spirit and the spirit which has been born.

The part of man which is born again is the spirit of man.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

If you choose to ignore what the many scriptures plainly teach then that is your choice.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

In this scripture we are taught that There is God's Spirit and the spirit which has been born.

The part of man which is born again is the spirit of man.


JLB

I don't believe that it's I who is ignoring the Scriptures. You've presented Scripture but I've not seen anywhere that you've attempted to reconcile the passages you posted with those that have been posted in favor of CI.

 

[chessman]

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written , Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54

In this scripture in becomes clear that what is corruptible is mans body, not his spirit.

An incorruptible body to clothe man's incorruptible spirit.

JLB

It's interesting that you point to a passage that doesn't even mention the word for spirit, to teach about man's spirit.

 

[JLB]

It's interesting that you point to a passage that doesn't even mention the word for spirit, to teach about man's spirit.

I point to it that you would see that the mortal part of man is his body.

We long to be clothed with immortality.


JLB

 

[agua.]

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written , Death is swallowed up in victory. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54

In this scripture in becomes clear that what is corruptible is mans body, not his spirit.

An incorruptible body to clothe man's incorruptible spirit.

JLB

This is interesting JLB. The passage is talking about our future state and new body I think we agree. Where is spirit mentioned ?

 

[Deborah13]

If you choose to ignore what the many scriptures plainly teach then that is your choice.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

In this scripture we are taught that There is God's Spirit and the spirit which has been born.

The part of man which is born again is the spirit of man.


JLB

I agree with you but I can't post what I think in this thread. It would be off topic.

 

[JLB]

This is interesting JLB. The passage is talking about our future state and new body I think we agree. Where is spirit mentioned ?

What do you mean by our? When you say our future state...

What part of the human being is considered "our".

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:1-6


Maybe you, like Paul, see our spirit as the real us, and our body as a house or tent for our spirit, our inner man.

What part of us is absent from the Lord, while we are in our body?

Here's a hint -

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 1 Corinthians 14:14-16


JLB

 

[chessman]

I point to it that you would see that the mortal part of man is his body.

We long to be clothed with immortality.


JLB

Sure.
"the mortal part of man is his body" The first, pre-resurrected body.
"We long to be clothed with immortality" Yes, we do desire a resurrected body.
Which are the things Paul is discussing in the 1 Cor 15:53-54 passage. It's obviously so since he doesn't even use the word "spirit" or "soul". You read that into that verse, if you think it points out the immaterial part of what man is or will be in the age to come.

Look, I personally fully understand that man is made up of material stuff (dust) and non-material 'stuff' (breath of Life). Call that immaterial stuff a "soul" or a "spirit", or make claims to who it belongs to (God or man) and I don't really see the point of distinction. In my opinion, taken as a whole, the Bible sometimes calls our non-material self a "soul" sometimes a "spirit". Just as it does with the material 'stuff'. Sometimes it calls it dust, sometimes 'flesh', sometimes 'heart' etc.

I think Deborah's, Butch's, Agua's and now mine point is that discussing and/or debating the fine points of distinctions between a "soul" or a "spirit" probably deserves to occur somewhere else in it's own thread. That's probably right because there are a wide spectrum of what CI's think about this. Anywhere from full out physicalists (there is no non-material 'stuff' without the material 'stuff' for it to reside in) to someone like me that thinks the spiritual 'stuff' somehow lives on in the intermediate state. There might even be some that also share your opinion that man is three parts. But the point is, this topic is only marginally related to the core beliefs of CI.

I feel there is a relationship, however, that can be discussed with the following question:

Why do you think Paul calls Jesus the "Second Adam"? I mean just basically (I'm not asking for more than a quick/basic reason) but one from someone like yourself that still believes in ECT, why even mention that Jesus is the 2nd Adam?

Before I give why I think he does that, I'd like to here your view from an ECT standpoint.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

I wasn't going to mention this at first, or second, but since you posted the post quoted below, (found via quik check of your posts) I think you would like to see what Watchman Nee says about Spirit, Soul, Body.
Other than his, simple and to the point and thoroughly based in Scripture,
I haven't found many great discussions or debates or 'scholarly' descriptions that are Godly and Scriptural and seeking God's viewpoint/knowledge revealed in Yeshua.
I think you can find it here: (1st hit in a quik search) >>>
K9 Safe Search
About 44,500 results
(0 results blocked on this page)
Spirit, Soul and Body - Watchman Nee
Spirit, Soul and Body. The Spiritual Man, CFP, Vol. 1, Part 1 INTRODUCTION ON SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY, Ch. 1, by Watchman Nee. The ORDINARY CONCEPT of the constitution ...www3.telus.net/trbrooks/spiritsoulbody.htm

one partial paragraph from the link: >>>
"Spiritual knowledge is very important to spiritual life. Let us add, however, that it is equally as, if not more, important for a believer to be humble and willing to accept the teaching of the Holy Spirit. If so, the Holy Spirit will grant him the experience of the dividing of spirit and soul, although he may not have too much knowledge concerning this truth. On the one hand, the most ignorant believer, without the slightest idea of the division of spirit and soul, may yet experience such a dividing in real life. On the other hand, the most informed believer, completely conversant with the truth concerning spirit and soul, may nonetheless have no experience of it."

I think he later explains(same chapter or other) the mortality of a person, and in detail how the spirit, soul and body all operate according to God's Plan and Scripture, in the believers, and in the unbelievers, and in the believers before they learn the truth, and in the believers before they experience the truth.
Watchman Nee is very consistent with all of Scripture, amazingly, as so many 'Christian' authors are not. Just be aware that Witness Lee later took the same 'titles'/books and changed them through living stream publishers. CFP-Christian Fellowship Publishers are the accurate/true/original ones, safe and tested. (and STILL TEST EVERYTHING! prayerfully before God and with all of Scripture)


"Yes it is. Thanks. Isn't the Bible amazing! The consistency among so many different authors or such a long period. No book like it.
chessman, May 11, 2014 Report
#282 Reply "

 

[JLB]

Sure.
"the mortal part of man is his body" The first, pre-resurrected body.
"We long to be clothed with immortality" Yes, we do desire a resurrected body.
Which are the things Paul is discussing in the 1 Cor 15:53-54 passage. It's obviously so since he doesn't even use the word "spirit" or "soul". You read that into that verse, if you think it points out the immaterial part of what man is or will be in the age to come.

Look, I personally fully understand that man is made up of material stuff (dust) and non-material 'stuff' (breath of Life). Call that immaterial stuff a "soul" or a "spirit", or make claims to who it belongs to (God or man) and I don't really see the point of distinction. In my opinion, taken as a whole, the Bible sometimes calls our non-material self a "soul" sometimes a "spirit". Just as it does with the material 'stuff'. Sometimes it calls it dust, sometimes 'flesh', sometimes 'heart' etc.

I think Deborah's, Butch's, Agua's and now mine point is that discussing and/or debating the fine points of distinctions between a "soul" or a "spirit" probably deserves to occur somewhere else in it's own thread. That's probably right because there are a wide spectrum of what CI's think about this. Anywhere from full out physicalists (there is no non-material 'stuff' without the material 'stuff' for it to reside in) to someone like me that thinks the spiritual 'stuff' somehow lives on in the intermediate state. There might even be some that also share your opinion that man is three parts. But the point is, this topic is only marginally related to the core beliefs of CI.

I feel there is a relationship, however, that can be discussed with the following question:

Why do you think Paul calls Jesus the "Second Adam"? I mean just basically (I'm not asking for more than a quick/basic reason) but one from someone like yourself that still believes in ECT, why even mention that Jesus is the 2nd Adam?

Before I give why I think he does that, I'd like to here your view from an ECT standpoint.

Because Jesus like Adam were listed in the Bible as God's Son [son].

Jesus is God's only begotten Son.

Adam is God's created son.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sure.
"the mortal part of man is his body" The first, pre-resurrected body.
"We long to be clothed with immortality" Yes, we do desire a resurrected body.
Which are the things Paul is discussing in the 1 Cor 15:53-54 passage. It's obviously so since he doesn't even use the word "spirit" or "soul". You read that into that verse, if you think it points out the immaterial part of what man is or will be in the age to come.

Look, I personally fully understand that man is made up of material stuff (dust) and non-material 'stuff' (breath of Life). Call that immaterial stuff a "soul" or a "spirit", or make claims to who it belongs to (God or man) and I don't really see the point of distinction. In my opinion, taken as a whole, the Bible sometimes calls our non-material self a "soul" sometimes a "spirit". Just as it does with the material 'stuff'. Sometimes it calls it dust, sometimes 'flesh', sometimes 'heart' etc.

I think Deborah's, Butch's, Agua's and now mine point is that discussing and/or debating the fine points of distinctions between a "soul" or a "spirit" probably deserves to occur somewhere else in it's own thread. That's probably right because there are a wide spectrum of what CI's think about this. Anywhere from full out physicalists (there is no non-material 'stuff' without the material 'stuff' for it to reside in) to someone like me that thinks the spiritual 'stuff' somehow lives on in the intermediate state. There might even be some that also share your opinion that man is three parts. But the point is, this topic is only marginally related to the core beliefs of CI.

I feel there is a relationship, however, that can be discussed with the following question:

Why do you think Paul calls Jesus the "Second Adam"? I mean just basically (I'm not asking for more than a quick/basic reason) but one from someone like yourself that still believes in ECT, why even mention that Jesus is the 2nd Adam?

Before I give why I think he does that, I'd like to here your view from an ECT standpoint.

I don't find a verse in the bible that teaches us that spirit beings, whether angel or human cease to exist.

I do find from what Jesus taught us that a person continues to exist, whether in comfort or torment after the physical body dies.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

The thread is devolving can we please get back to the Op so that DI can continue with his posts. Take notice he hasn't posted lately.

 

[JLB]

The thread is devolving can we please get back to the Op so that DI can continue with his posts. Take notice he hasn't posted lately.

Defining what part of man is mortal and what part is immortal is very pertinent to the OP.

I for one would welcome DI and others to share what they see and believe from the scriptures about this critical line of understanding.


JLB

 

[agua.]

What do you mean by our? When you say our future state...

What part of the human being is considered "our".

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:1-6


Maybe you, like Paul, see our spirit as the real us, and our body as a house or tent for our spirit, our inner man.

Hey JLB,

I see the real us as our living body. ie. Flesh + God's breath/spirit so "our" would be that.

What part of us is absent from the Lord, while we are in our body?

Here's a hint -

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 1 Corinthians 14:14-16


JLB

Notice here JLB that you don't actually know what your spirit is saying. Why do you think that you don't understand if it is the real you as you suggest ?

 

[JLB]

Hey JLB,

I see the real us as our living body. ie. Flesh + God's breath/spirit so "our" would be that.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

Do you believe that you had a "living body" before you were "saved"?

What changed then after you were saved, IOW, what did the Holy Spirit bear witness to that you are saved?

If you were already a living body before you were saved, what are you now?

Notice here JLB that you don't actually know what your spirit is saying. Why do you think that you don't understand if it is the real you as you suggest

Because it is an unknown tongue that I have never learned. My mind is unfruitful.

It is the tongue of men and angels.


JLB

 

[agua.]

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

Do you believe that you had a "living body" before you were "saved"?

What changed then after you were saved, IOW, what did the Holy Spirit bear witness to that you are saved?

If you were already a living body before you were saved, what are you now?

Hmm JLB. Yes we all are living so long as we aren't dead. When we become saved The Holy Spirit regenerates us ie. bears witness with our spirit/life. Notice that the Holy spirit regenerates us ie. renews/fixes God's spirit in us imo. So now I have God's spirit in me being renewed/fixed. Remember salvation is God's work entirely in us.

Because it is an unknown tongue that I have never learned. My mind is unfruitful.

It is the tongue of men and angels.


JLB

Sure JLB but you don't understand this language because it isn't yours right ?

 

[Deborah13]

Hmm JLB. Yes we all are living so long as we aren't dead. When we become saved The Holy Spirit regenerates us ie. bears witness with our spirit/life. Notice that the Holy spirit regenerates us ie. renews/fixes God's spirit in us imo. So now I have God's spirit in me being renewed/fixed. Remember salvation is God's work entirely in us.



Sure JLB but you don't understand this language because it isn't yours right ?

Both you and JLB are making very interesting points about what the spirit is unfortunately for me and possibly others we cannot respond because that is not the content of this OP topic as I understand it.
Do you think that you could make some of these points in the Body, Soul, and Spirit thread.
Such as what you said here, "So now I have God's spirit in me being renewed/fixed. Remember salvation is God's work entirely in us."
That statement to me is loaded and at the foundation of the discussion of spirit/soul.

 

[Butch5]

Hey JLB,

I see the real us as our living body. ie. Flesh + God's breath/spirit so "our" would be that.



Notice here JLB that you don't actually know what your spirit is saying. Why do you think that you don't understand if it is the real you as you suggest ?

That's a really good point Agua, if the spirit is the real man how is the spirit praying in a language that you don't even know. And, even more how, is the spirit praying if you're not? The real question I want to ask is this, if the real man is the spirit and the body is not necessary, why don't those who believe this leave their body?