Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[Butch5]

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:26 (ESV)

In Paul's teaching on the resurrection and restoration of all things, he mentions this important point. That death, being our enemy will be destroyed, as it also says in Revelation 21:4, death shall be no more.

In Christian culture, a spiritual after-life is so accentuated that one hardly notices one of the central truths of the gospel. That Jesus rising from the dead wasn't just to show that Jesus really did pay the bill and you're forgiven, nor was it just about showing that Jesus was telling the truth and is God. More importantly, it was about Jesus overcoming evil and death!

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel 2 Timothy 1:8-10

Jesus abolished death, and in it's place brought life and immortality. This immortality is not about some kind of spiritual continuation of our existence in a ghostly or ethereal form, it is distinctly talking about the physical. This is a different Greek word than the one describing God in 1 Timothy 6:16, which is the word "athanasia," which means unable to die. Rather the word used in this passage is "aphtharsia" which denotes incorruptibility, and is referencing a body that does not break down and die. This is what our savior brought and what he saved us from was not eternal conscious torment, but from death.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. Hebrews 2:15 (ESV)

Jesus overcame death and evil through defeating death for us by taking away the one who has the power of death, which is the devil.

Now the question stands, do Christians still die? Of course they do, now how could this then be referring to Jesus overcoming death for us if we still die? I believe that Conditionalism has the answer for this. It isn't an eternal existence as a spirit, it is a bodily resurrection and salvation from the second death, which is destruction in the lake of fire. God will restore and glorify creation and free it from sin, evil and death forever.

This I believe is central to the gospel, and this teaching is truly brought out with an understanding of Conditionalism as espoused here.

Blessings,
DI

Excellent post

 

[JLB]

Hi Everyone,

Remember this thread is to learn about Annihilationism/Conditional Immortality, not to debate or argue against it. If you have questions, please go ahead and ask them and I would be more than happy to answer them. Or if you have a response to one of my general teaching posts then that would be welcome as well.

Hopefully later today I will be able to speak about the Biblical teaching around death and the importance of the resurrection. I have been busy this weekend and couldn't really post.

NOTE: Please have all discussion of the nature of the spirit and soul go to the newly created thread that was made for that purpose. I think I have stated all that is necessary on the topic and a strict stance to dualism or non-dualism is unnecessary for Conditionalists.

Regards,
DI

Please explain from your own words the term Annihilationism.


Thanks JLB

 

[JLB]

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:26 (ESV)


DI

How long will it take for Death to be destroyed, in light of these phrases.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41,46

and again -

These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2 Thessalonians 1:9

and again -

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20;10

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:14


The cursed people are lumped into the same category as the devil and his angels. Human beings and spirit beings are to suffer the same fate of everlasting destruction in everlasting fire, being tormented day and night with no rest.

Which category do you place Death in: Human being or spirit being?

It is the same destroying process for Death as it is for the Devil and his angels: Lake of Fire, they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Death will be destroyed forever and ever.


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Please explain from your own words the term Annihilationism.


Thanks JLB

I actually don't prefer this term, and I am not sure who came up with the term. It commonly leads to misconceptions that we mean that the final punishment is being zapped from existence. This is not what we mean, the basic foundation of what we believe is that the wicked are killed (their life ceases to continue) as a result of the God's final punishment. There are then distinctions within those who hold our position about the length of time or the manner in which the person is destroyed.

 

[JLB]

I actually don't prefer this term, and I am not sure who came up with the term. It commonly leads to misconceptions that we mean that the final punishment is being zapped from existence. This is not what we mean, the basic foundation of what we believe is that the wicked are killed (their life ceases to continue) as a result of the God's final punishment. There are then distinctions within those who hold our position about the length of time or the manner in which the person is destroyed.

So far we have not been presented with any scriptures that would validate the belief that a person or an angel "ceases to exist" in hell or the lake of fire.

JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So far we have not been presented with any scriptures that would validate the belief that a person or an angel "ceases to exist" in hell or the lake of fire.

JLB

Hi JLB,

Please see Choppers post for the purpose of this thread.

NOTICE: I would like everyone who will be posting in this thread started by Doulos, as an answer to the outcome of the souls who do not believe in the Christ. The final stage after they have been judged for the last time and cast into the lake of fire, how long will their torment last? Forever? or limited time.

This is to be a thread led be Doulos, he is our teacher for this subject. I do not want him on the defensive, that accomplishes nothing for our subject. I as well as you, want our questions answered in a pleasant way so he can give us facts. If you don't agree with him, please don't attack him! Simply ask questions.

Doulos and I want this to be an enjoyable experience as well as educational, so lets all have fun, and respect our teacher, Doulos....Thank you.

I am hear to educate and inform regarding this doctrine, I am not here to be on the defensive and answer every single objection you might have. If you want that kind of debate it can be had elsewhere.

I have already given several examples in Scripture that support my position, and addressed several other passages that are often used to argue against my position. Scriptures which you consistently bring up to try and object to me, despite not having dealt with my refutations.

So I would please ask you to adhere to Chopper's purpose for this thread and not derail it, there are many other threads for this kind of discussion to take place but this is not the place.

Thanks,
DI

 

[reba]

Because we dont always notice.... The thread has been moved to Bible Study . Please remember Bible Study is not a debate forum...

 

[TimothyW]

Hi All,

In this thread we will be elevating the discussion and therefore will seek to treat everyone with dignity, respect and love.

Thank you "Jesus' Servant". I also commit to elevating the discussion and treating everyone with dignity, respect and love in this thread. If I have stumbled in the past, I apologize, it was never my intention to disrespect anyone.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Thank you "Jesus' Servant". I also commit to elevating the discussion and treating everyone with dignity, respect and love in this thread. If I have stumbled in the past, I apologize, it was never my intention to disrespect anyone.

Hi Timothy,

Much appreciated. If you wouldn't mind, I would like to hear how you came to hold this position. I think hearing about the learning process can be really interesting and insightful.

Regards,
DI

 

[Butch5]

So far we have not been presented with any scriptures that would validate the belief that a person or an angel "ceases to exist" in hell or the lake of fire.

JLB

Hi JLB,

Actually, this is not an issue that my position needs to address. I understand that some CI's hold a different view of the soul and spirit. Since I hold that man is a physical being that is animated by the breath of life you statement doesn't bear on my position, I would simply address it as with the first death. At the second death the wicked are tossed into the Lake of fire, the body burns up and the spirit, which belongs to God returns to Him. This fits nicely with what I believe the Scriptures teach and it also fits nicely with what Jesus said.

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 NKJ)

The passage speaks of the body and soul being destroyed, not the spirit. It fits my belief nicely.

I would like to ask you a question since you've posted this passage from Luke several times,

36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:36 NKJ)

You've presented this passage and said that angels can't die. I would like to ask you, why can't angels die?

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,

Actually, this is not an issue that my position needs to address. I understand that some CI's hold a different view of the soul and spirit. Since I hold that man is a physical being that is animated by the breath of life you statement doesn't bear on my position, I would simply address it as with the first death. At the second death the wicked are tossed into the Lake of fire, the body burns up and the spirit, which belongs to God returns to Him. This fits nicely with what I believe the Scriptures teach and it also fits nicely with what Jesus said.

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mat 10:28 NKJ)

The passage speaks of the body and soul being destroyed, not the spirit. It fits my belief nicely.

I would like to ask you a question since you've posted this passage from Luke several times,

36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:36 NKJ)

You've presented this passage and said that angels can die. I would like to ask you, why can't angels die?

36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:36 NKJ)

Why can't angels die?

Because Jesus said they can't.

The word FOR in verse 36 is what we say today with the word BECAUSE.

They can not die anymore BECAUSE they are equal to the angels.

JLB.

 

[Butch5]

36 "nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. (Luk 20:36 NKJ)

Why can't angels die?

Because Jesus said they can't.

The word FOR in verse 36 is what we say today with the word BECAUSE.

They can not die anymore BECAUSE they are equal to the angels.

JLB.

Hi JLB,

Jesus didn't give an reason why they can't die. I'm looking for the reason they can't die. Without knowing the reason they can't die the passage doesn't support you're case. It may not be that they can't be destroyed, but that God is keeping them alive. Unless we know why they can't die we can't use this passage to say spirits are not able to be destroyed

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,

Jesus didn't give an reason why they can't die. I'm looking for the reason they can't die. Without knowing the reason they can't die the passage doesn't support you're case. It may not be that they can't be destroyed, but that God is keeping them alive. Unless we know why they can't die we can't use this passage to say spirits are not able to be destroyed

Why they can't die?

Jesus said they can't.

That's why.

Here's a question for you.

Why don't the sons of resurrection, who are declared to be sons of God die anymore?


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Why they can't die?

Jesus said they can't.

That's why.

Here's a question for you.

Why don't the sons of resurrection, who are declared to be sons of God die anymore?


JLB

Without the reason it doesn't help you. The reason the sons don't die is because God gives them perpetual life.

 

[Butch5]

I'd like to say a little more on the word "Forever". I started to address this in the other thread, Body, Soul, Spirit, in post #77. In the Masoretic text the word that is usually transferred "forever" is the Hebrew "olam," here is the definition.

Theological Workbook of the Old Testament
1631 ‏עלם‎ (ʿlm) III. Assumed root of the following.

1631a †‏עוֹלָם‎ (ʿôlām) <H5769>, <H5865> forever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world, etc. (RSV similar in general, but substitutes "always" for "in the world" in Psalm 73:12 and eternity" for "world" in Eccles. 3:11.) Probably derived from ʿālam I, "to hide," thus pointing to what is hidden in the distant future or in the distant past. The Ugaritic cognate is ʿlm, "eternity."

Though ʿôlām is used more than three hundred times to indicate indefinite continuance into the very distant future, the meaning of the word is not confined to the future. There are at least twenty instances where it clearly refers to the past. Such usages generally point to something that seems long ago, but rarely if ever refer to a limitless past. Thus in Deut. 32:7 and Job 22:15 it may refer to the time of one's elders. In Proverbs 22:28; Proverbs 23:10; Jeremiah 6:16; Jeremiah 18:15; Jeremiah 28:8 it points back somewhat farther. In Isaiah 58:12; Isaiah 61:4; Micah 7:14; Malachi 3:4, and in the Aramaic of Ezra 4:15, 19 it clearly refers to the time just before the exile. In 1 Samuel 27:8, in Isaiah 51:9 and Isaiah 63:9, 11 and perhaps Ezekiel 36:2, it refers to the events of the exodus from Egypt. In Genesis 6:4 it points to the time shortly before the flood. None of these past references has in it the idea of endlessness or limitlessness, but each points to a time long before the immediate knowledge of those living. In Isaiah 64:3 the KJV translates the word "beginning of the world." In Psalm 73:12 and Eccles. 3:11 it is translated "world," suggesting the beginning of a usage that developed greatly in postbiblical times.

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

Does anyone see a problem here. The first definition given for olam is forever or everlasting, yet it says when the word refers to the past it never means forever. How does the same word mean forever and not forever? Here is Brown-Driver-Briggs.

<H5957>, <H5769>

†‏עָלַם‎ n.[m.] perpetuity, antiquity (see BH III > ‏עלם‎, ‏עוֹּלָם‎);—‏ע׳‎ absolute Dn 3:33 +, construct 7:18; emph. ‏עָֽלְמָא‎ 2:20 +; pl. ‏עָֽלְמִין‎ 2:4 +, emph. ‏עָֽלְמַיָּא‎ 2:44 7:18;—perpetuity in the future: ‏מַלְכוּת ע׳‎ Dn 3:33 7:27, compare 4:31 7:14; ‏ע׳‎ as adverb for ever 4:31; ‏עַד־עָֽלְמָא וְעַד־עָלַם עָֽלְמַיָּא‎ 7:18; pl. ‏לְע׳‎ for ever 2:4; 2:44; 2:44 3:9 5:10 6:7; 6:22; 6:27; antiquity, ‏מִן־יוֹּמָת עָֽלְמָא‎ Ezr 4:15; 4:19; of limitless time both past and future: ‏מִן־ע׳ וְעַד־ע׳‎ Dn 2:20.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon.

They say it's limitless both past and future. Well we've seen from the Scriptures themselves that the word can and is used of times future that "ARE NOT" limitless or eternal.

Notice the first source, The Theological Workbook of the Old Testament. It says as the first definition, forever, yet, when it begins to explain the usage of the word it says, "Though ʿôlām is used more than three hundred times to indicate indefinite continuance into the very distant future". Again, how can the word mean forever and an indefinite period of time. Eternity is not a indefinite period of time.

So, how does one define Olam when they come across it in the text? If the word can mean eternity and an indefinite period of time there is no way to determine what the word means. It may be possible to use context sometimes but that may not always be the case. It would seem that this is a case of theology driving the interpretation. I've posted 10 passages showing olam speaking of a finite period of time, so we know it can be used finitely, the question is can it be used of infinity? The answer is, yes, it can. If it's an unspecified period of time that could be infinite, however, it doesn't have to be. Just because the word can be used to define an infinite period of time doesn't mean has to mean an infinite period of time.

I think this should make us consider the translation when we see the words forever, forever and ever, everlasting, etc. They just might not mean forever.

 

[JLB]

Without the reason it doesn't help you. The reason the sons don't die is because God gives them perpetual life.

Please show the scripture that God gives them perpetual life, yet doesn't gives angels who are called sons of God, perpetual life.


JLB

 

[Free]

Let's hope that it doesn't need to be mentioned again that this is not a debate forum.

 

[JLB]

I'd like to say a little more on the word "Forever". I started to address this in the other thread, Body, Soul, Spirit, in post #77. In the Masoretic text the word that is usually transferred "forever" is the Hebrew "olam," here is the definition.

Theological Workbook of the Old Testament
1631 ‏עלם‎ (ʿlm) III. Assumed root of the following.

1631a †‏עוֹלָם‎ (ʿôlām) <H5769>, <H5865> forever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world, etc. (RSV similar in general, but substitutes "always" for "in the world" in Psalm 73:12 and eternity" for "world" in Eccles. 3:11.) Probably derived from ʿālam I, "to hide," thus pointing to what is hidden in the distant future or in the distant past. The Ugaritic cognate is ʿlm, "eternity."

Though ʿôlām is used more than three hundred times to indicate indefinite continuance into the very distant future, the meaning of the word is not confined to the future. There are at least twenty instances where it clearly refers to the past. Such usages generally point to something that seems long ago, but rarely if ever refer to a limitless past. Thus in Deut. 32:7 and Job 22:15 it may refer to the time of one's elders. In Proverbs 22:28; Proverbs 23:10; Jeremiah 6:16; Jeremiah 18:15; Jeremiah 28:8 it points back somewhat farther. In Isaiah 58:12; Isaiah 61:4; Micah 7:14; Malachi 3:4, and in the Aramaic of Ezra 4:15, 19 it clearly refers to the time just before the exile. In 1 Samuel 27:8, in Isaiah 51:9 and Isaiah 63:9, 11 and perhaps Ezekiel 36:2, it refers to the events of the exodus from Egypt. In Genesis 6:4 it points to the time shortly before the flood. None of these past references has in it the idea of endlessness or limitlessness, but each points to a time long before the immediate knowledge of those living. In Isaiah 64:3 the KJV translates the word "beginning of the world." In Psalm 73:12 and Eccles. 3:11 it is translated "world," suggesting the beginning of a usage that developed greatly in postbiblical times.

Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

Does anyone see a problem here. The first definition given for olam is forever or everlasting, yet it says when the word refers to the past it never means forever. How does the same word mean forever and not forever? Here is Brown-Driver-Briggs.

<H5957>, <H5769>

†‏עָלַם‎ n.[m.] perpetuity, antiquity (see BH III > ‏עלם‎, ‏עוֹּלָם‎);—‏ע׳‎ absolute Dn 3:33 +, construct 7:18; emph. ‏עָֽלְמָא‎ 2:20 +; pl. ‏עָֽלְמִין‎ 2:4 +, emph. ‏עָֽלְמַיָּא‎ 2:44 7:18;—perpetuity in the future: ‏מַלְכוּת ע׳‎ Dn 3:33 7:27, compare 4:31 7:14; ‏ע׳‎ as adverb for ever 4:31; ‏עַד־עָֽלְמָא וְעַד־עָלַם עָֽלְמַיָּא‎ 7:18; pl. ‏לְע׳‎ for ever 2:4; 2:44; 2:44 3:9 5:10 6:7; 6:22; 6:27; antiquity, ‏מִן־יוֹּמָת עָֽלְמָא‎ Ezr 4:15; 4:19; of limitless time both past and future: ‏מִן־ע׳ וְעַד־ע׳‎ Dn 2:20.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon.

They say it's limitless both past and future. Well we've seen from the Scriptures themselves that the word can and is used of times future that "ARE NOT" limitless or eternal.

Notice the first source, The Theological Workbook of the Old Testament. It says as the first definition, forever, yet, when it begins to explain the usage of the word it says, "Though ʿôlām is used more than three hundred times to indicate indefinite continuance into the very distant future". Again, how can the word mean forever and an indefinite period of time. Eternity is not a indefinite period of time.

So, how does one define Olam when they come across it in the text? If the word can mean eternity and an indefinite period of time there is no way to determine what the word means. It may be possible to use context sometimes but that may not always be the case. It would seem that this is a case of theology driving the interpretation. I've posted 10 passages showing olam speaking of a finite period of time, so we know it can be used finitely, the question is can it be used of infinity? The answer is, yes, it can. If it's an unspecified period of time that could be infinite, however, it doesn't have to be. Just because the word can be used to define an infinite period of time doesn't mean has to mean an infinite period of time.

I think this should make us consider the translation when we see the words forever, forever and ever, everlasting, etc. They just might not mean forever.

Here is a word study that I found interesting.

46 And these will go away into everlasting [ Aionios # 166] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [ Aionios # 166] life." Matthew 25:46

The word everlasting and the word eternal in English are the same Greek word here in this verse.

One describes the fate of the wicked and the other the blessing of the righteous.


Something for us to consider.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Here is a word study that I found interesting.

46 And these will go away into everlasting [ Aionios # 166] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [ Aionios # 166] life." Matthew 25:46

The word everlasting and the word eternal in English are the same Greek word here in this verse.

One describes the fate of the wicked and the other the blessing of the righteous.


Something for us to consider.


JLB

Agreed, I believe it's referring to verse 41 and the everlasting fire.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This is NOT a debate thread, please take your debate about angels elsewhere.