You can not be declared as "living" unless you have your spirit in your body.
As it is written, the body without the spirit is dead.
JLB
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Bible Study Conditional Immortality
- Thread starter Doulos Iesou
- Start date
You can not be declared as "living" unless you have your spirit in your body.
As it is written, the body without the spirit is dead.
JLB
The body is not necessary?
Nobody has stated this.
The body without the spirit is dead.
Therefore you are not a living being without a spirit.
JLB
Deborah13
Member
Who ever said that the body was not necessary to live in this material world?
And who ever said that we are at liberty to leave our body whenever we choose?
Doulos Iesou
Member
Hi JLB,
Here is the text that we base our argument off of.
who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16 (ESV)
God alone has immortality, therefore all other beings who exist are preserved by his sovereign will, this includes angels and spiritual beings.
Are you claiming that 1) these beings are innately immortal despite the fact that Paul says only God has this power, or 2) that God is unable to destroy these beings?
If God can destroy these beings, and if he is indeed the only immortal one, then our doctrine has a strong foundation.
Regards,
DI
Doulos Iesou
Member
Hi Everyone,
Remember this thread is to learn about Annihilationism/Conditional Immortality, not to debate or argue against it. If you have questions, please go ahead and ask them and I would be more than happy to answer them. Or if you have a response to one of my general teaching posts then that would be welcome as well.
Hopefully later today I will be able to speak about the Biblical teaching around death and the importance of the resurrection. I have been busy this weekend and couldn't really post.
NOTE: Please have all discussion of the nature of the spirit and soul go to the newly created thread that was made for that purpose. I think I have stated all that is necessary on the topic and a strict stance to dualism or non-dualism is unnecessary for Conditionalists.
Regards,
DI
Remember this thread is to learn about Annihilationism/Conditional Immortality, not to debate or argue against it. If you have questions, please go ahead and ask them and I would be more than happy to answer them. Or if you have a response to one of my general teaching posts then that would be welcome as well.
Hopefully later today I will be able to speak about the Biblical teaching around death and the importance of the resurrection. I have been busy this weekend and couldn't really post.
NOTE: Please have all discussion of the nature of the spirit and soul go to the newly created thread that was made for that purpose. I think I have stated all that is necessary on the topic and a strict stance to dualism or non-dualism is unnecessary for Conditionalists.
Regards,
DI
Deborah13
Member
Would you agree that God's sovereign will established all things before the foundation of the world. That by His will He set in motion all things in the universe and that there are certain rules as to how those things will exist and continue to exist or not exist?
Butch5
Member
If man can exist without the body at death why wouldn't he be able to before death?
Doulos Iesou
Member
Are you asking if I embrace divine determinism?
This is an unrelated issue, but I don't think everything is predetermined.
chessman
Member
How about this:
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write:‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’”“Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow after them.”
Is a blessing upon those of us that die in the Lord predetermined? I think it is.
Now, if this thread makes it to 356 pages prior to being locked or not, that seems 50/50 to me.
Deborah13
Member
No certainly not.
Only that God by His sovereign will determined the rules that govern everything that exists, continues to exist, or to not exist. And that He did this before the foundations of the world.
That He Himself has never changed the rules/laws that He determined.
Deborah13
Member
Yes because it really shouldn't be in this thread but in the B/S/S thread ! I will post it over there.
Doulos Iesou
Member
If I understand your question correctly then I would say that God has not changed these rules. Gravity and other laws of nature remain the same everywhere.
Deborah13
Member
So you have spoken to the rules that govern the things that are material what about the things that a spiritual?
Do you believe that God also has control of spiritual things by the laws that He has determined?
Doulos Iesou
Member
Hi Deborah,
I'm not sure this is relevant to the thread, can you perhaps fill me in on the point you're trying to reach so I can understand how it is related to Conditionalism.
Regards,
DI
Doulos Iesou
Member
The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:26 (ESV)
In Paul's teaching on the resurrection and restoration of all things, he mentions this important point. That death, being our enemy will be destroyed, as it also says in Revelation 21:4, death shall be no more.
In Christian culture, a spiritual after-life is so accentuated that one hardly notices one of the central truths of the gospel. That Jesus rising from the dead wasn't just to show that Jesus really did pay the bill and you're forgiven, nor was it just about showing that Jesus was telling the truth and is God. More importantly, it was about Jesus overcoming evil and death!
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel 2 Timothy 1:8-10
Jesus abolished death, and in it's place brought life and immortality. This immortality is not about some kind of spiritual continuation of our existence in a ghostly or ethereal form, it is distinctly talking about the physical. This is a different Greek word than the one describing God in 1 Timothy 6:16, which is the word "athanasia," which means unable to die. Rather the word used in this passage is "aphtharsia" which denotes incorruptibility, and is referencing a body that does not break down and die. This is what our savior brought and what he saved us from was not eternal conscious torment, but from death.
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. Hebrews 2:15 (ESV)
Jesus overcame death and evil through defeating death for us by taking away the one who has the power of death, which is the devil.
Now the question stands, do Christians still die? Of course they do, now how could this then be referring to Jesus overcoming death for us if we still die? I believe that Conditionalism has the answer for this. It isn't an eternal existence as a spirit, it is a bodily resurrection and salvation from the second death, which is destruction in the lake of fire. God will restore and glorify creation and free it from sin, evil and death forever.
This I believe is central to the gospel, and this teaching is truly brought out with an understanding of Conditionalism as espoused here.
Blessings,
DI
In Paul's teaching on the resurrection and restoration of all things, he mentions this important point. That death, being our enemy will be destroyed, as it also says in Revelation 21:4, death shall be no more.
In Christian culture, a spiritual after-life is so accentuated that one hardly notices one of the central truths of the gospel. That Jesus rising from the dead wasn't just to show that Jesus really did pay the bill and you're forgiven, nor was it just about showing that Jesus was telling the truth and is God. More importantly, it was about Jesus overcoming evil and death!
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel 2 Timothy 1:8-10
Jesus abolished death, and in it's place brought life and immortality. This immortality is not about some kind of spiritual continuation of our existence in a ghostly or ethereal form, it is distinctly talking about the physical. This is a different Greek word than the one describing God in 1 Timothy 6:16, which is the word "athanasia," which means unable to die. Rather the word used in this passage is "aphtharsia" which denotes incorruptibility, and is referencing a body that does not break down and die. This is what our savior brought and what he saved us from was not eternal conscious torment, but from death.
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. Hebrews 2:15 (ESV)
Jesus overcame death and evil through defeating death for us by taking away the one who has the power of death, which is the devil.
Now the question stands, do Christians still die? Of course they do, now how could this then be referring to Jesus overcoming death for us if we still die? I believe that Conditionalism has the answer for this. It isn't an eternal existence as a spirit, it is a bodily resurrection and salvation from the second death, which is destruction in the lake of fire. God will restore and glorify creation and free it from sin, evil and death forever.
This I believe is central to the gospel, and this teaching is truly brought out with an understanding of Conditionalism as espoused here.
Blessings,
DI
Deborah13
Member
I don't have any point I am trying to make. I have no agenda. You said this...
"God alone has immortality, therefore all other beings who exist are preserved by his sovereign will, this includes angels and spiritual beings."
I would agree with this statement in the way I understand 'His sovereign will'. So I just wondered what God's sovereign will means to you. As you know what one determines this looks like can determine what they believe, what doctrines they accept or deny.
H
His_nee (Jeff)
Guest
perhaps usually.
2 Kings 6
Amplified Bible (AMP)
6:1 The sons of the prophets said to Elisha, Look now, the place where we live before you is too small for us. 2 Let us go to the Jordan, and each man get there a [house] beam; and let us make us a place there where we may dwell. And he answered, Go. 3 One said, Be pleased to go with your servants. He answered, I will go. 4 So he went with them. And when they came to the Jordan, they cut down trees. 5 But as one was felling his beam, the axhead fell into the water; and he cried, Alas, my master, for it was borrowed! 6 The man of God said, Where did it fall? When shown the place, Elisha cut off a stick and threw it in there, and the iron floated. 7 He said, Pick it up. And he put out his hand and took it.
Galatians 3:5
Amplified Bible (AMP)
5 Then does He Who supplies you with His marvelous [Holy] Spirit and works powerfully and miraculously among you do so on [the grounds of your doing] what the Law demands, or because of your believing in and adhering to and trusting in and relying on the message that you heard?
Are you saying that God can not grant immortality to spirit beings?
Furthermore, the term eternal life seems to indicative of a quality as well as a length of time.
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.John 17:3
So the opposite would be eternal death, for those who do not know God.
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
Everlasting destruction that never ends!
Tormented day and night with no rest.
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41-45
JLB