I
Imagican
Guest
By NO means is anything written in the word, 'out-dated'. There are times that some things have a separate meaning, but nothing is OVER, yet.
Following Christ through the gospels, or Paul through his epistles is certainly NOT following a 'book'. While I will freely admit that 'the book' is only the beginning of understanding, what it contains are the fundamentals of my belief.
As I already tried to explain, the beginning of the 'true' Church began shortly after Christ's death. Christ stated that upon Peter he would build His Church, but He never stated that it would grow continuously nor that it would 'not be destroyed' from it's original conception.
As OC stated perfectly in his post: 'The temple, (body of, or church), of Christ lives within us, not without". This has been taken by man and turned into a kind of circus of sorts where man created his own church and began to worship 'outside' rather than inside.
The leaders that we were told to emulate ARE DEAD. They died shortly after Christ himself. We have their words that remain to this day, (one good thing that has come from the riches of the Catholic church, even though they refused to allow commoners the possesion of them up until the time of Martin Luther). As the power of the RCC grew, it's influence on EVERYONE under their control brought about the digression of the 'truth' at an astronomical rate.
The love of money is the root of all evil. Wealth, (money), can be many things. Power being the utmost example of such. Power is control, OWNING. It is obvious through the study of history that as the power of the RCC increased, they obviously had to turn their backs on the truth in order to justify their means. Thus, the validity of their 'calling' was thus destroyed.
So, to answer your statements concerning Heb., Those days ARE past as far as the RCC is concerned. There are still Spiritual leaders, but you probably wouldn't recognize any of them any better than myself. They certainly wouldn't be in Huge halls, wearing expensive clothing, and living the 'good life'. They probably resemble something more like John the Baptist, and few, if any, take them seriously at all.
Moses was a man that actually physically communicated WITH God. I personally believe that those times have passed too. Not that God can't communicate with us, but the world and the flesh have had an additional two thousand years since Christ's death to degenerate to the point of the present. Add an additional three thousand years to that, and you will begin to see that as a Spiritual animal, we have experienced an ever downward spiraling spiritual evolution. What our Spiritual forefathers were is now beyond our comprehension. Too much world, and too much flesh in the way.
And you didn't really mean this did you
Both Peter and Paul talk about the shepherds they left with us so I don't think you can claim that passage is just talking about the Apostles. Now it would seem that these shepherds will help us to follow Christ and so we should be able to discern who they are. You seem to be admitting that God is defeated in the area of letting us know who his shepherds are today.
Was David Koresh one of these 'leaders'? How about James Jones? Come on guy, you KNOW that that the people that followed them 'thought' that they were 'the ones'! KNEW it in fact, to the point that they were willing die along side these people. Along with our Spiritual degeneration, our Spiritual discernment has degraded also. I wouldn't trust my ability to discern a 'modern leader' for one second. Nor should you for your 'spirits sake'.
And I think you chose to ignore something that I stated previous: I don't judge the hearts of those that have followed the RCC through ignorance. There have certainly been MANY that have followed this institution with nothing in their hearts other than a desire to do God's will. It's the institution itself and the teachings of it's leaders that I disagree with.
The original Church in Rome was built by the apostles that visited there. The problem wasn't the beginning of the Church, but what happened to it once it was mated with the paganism of the leaders that became more powerful once Constantine allowed the open and outright worship of Christ to flourish. Where there's masses there's money and that's what the later leaders desired most.
NO, I do not attempt to sway you to 'my way'. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I offer to you and anyone else that may choose to read these threads is a 'closer' depiction of the 'truth' than that offered by ANY church or religion. Your beliefs are yours, all I can offer is the advice that you be 'true to yourself' in this regard.
Yes, there are obvious myriad 'ways' in which to follow Christ. All one needs is to look around to see the diversity. The problem lies with the difference in 'following Christ' and 'following man' in the name of Christ.
Who now seems to misunderstand history and the present itself? Isn't the Pope closer to God than his followers? Isn't this taught in their churches? Doesn't he have the ability to either grant or deny your salvation according to your acts and beliefs? If this is not following a man-made institution, then I don't know of a better example.
I think you have confused bitterness with sorrow. I have absolutely nothing against ANY MAN except myself and my own flesh. I only offer awareness and alarm to those that don't know any better.
And another point of misunderstanding seems to be you thinking that I am making direct accusations or assumptions about you personally. I don't even know you. What I was hoping was to be able to plant a small seed that you and others may nurture and allow to grow into a better understanding. If not, so be it.
And guy, what I offer is offered out of love. Unfortunately for me, patience and humility are two things that I am still having to struggle with. My life has led to these things and because I realize that our time is limited, sometimes I feel compelled to change the world 'over-night'. Sorry for my weaknesses and I ask for your forgiveness if you feel I have attacked you personally. That's certainly not been my intention.
And the Church which Christ appointed his followers to build still exists, in the hearts of those that choose to follow God instead of man.
Oh, you asked about a civilization that has lasted as long as the Catholic church. The Egyptians had control over a civilization for over three thousand years. But NOTHING of man will last longer than God chooses to allow it. And just as they eventually were stripped of their power, the RCC will loose theirs too.
Following Christ through the gospels, or Paul through his epistles is certainly NOT following a 'book'. While I will freely admit that 'the book' is only the beginning of understanding, what it contains are the fundamentals of my belief.
As I already tried to explain, the beginning of the 'true' Church began shortly after Christ's death. Christ stated that upon Peter he would build His Church, but He never stated that it would grow continuously nor that it would 'not be destroyed' from it's original conception.
As OC stated perfectly in his post: 'The temple, (body of, or church), of Christ lives within us, not without". This has been taken by man and turned into a kind of circus of sorts where man created his own church and began to worship 'outside' rather than inside.
The leaders that we were told to emulate ARE DEAD. They died shortly after Christ himself. We have their words that remain to this day, (one good thing that has come from the riches of the Catholic church, even though they refused to allow commoners the possesion of them up until the time of Martin Luther). As the power of the RCC grew, it's influence on EVERYONE under their control brought about the digression of the 'truth' at an astronomical rate.
The love of money is the root of all evil. Wealth, (money), can be many things. Power being the utmost example of such. Power is control, OWNING. It is obvious through the study of history that as the power of the RCC increased, they obviously had to turn their backs on the truth in order to justify their means. Thus, the validity of their 'calling' was thus destroyed.
So, to answer your statements concerning Heb., Those days ARE past as far as the RCC is concerned. There are still Spiritual leaders, but you probably wouldn't recognize any of them any better than myself. They certainly wouldn't be in Huge halls, wearing expensive clothing, and living the 'good life'. They probably resemble something more like John the Baptist, and few, if any, take them seriously at all.
Moses was a man that actually physically communicated WITH God. I personally believe that those times have passed too. Not that God can't communicate with us, but the world and the flesh have had an additional two thousand years since Christ's death to degenerate to the point of the present. Add an additional three thousand years to that, and you will begin to see that as a Spiritual animal, we have experienced an ever downward spiraling spiritual evolution. What our Spiritual forefathers were is now beyond our comprehension. Too much world, and too much flesh in the way.
And you didn't really mean this did you
Both Peter and Paul talk about the shepherds they left with us so I don't think you can claim that passage is just talking about the Apostles. Now it would seem that these shepherds will help us to follow Christ and so we should be able to discern who they are. You seem to be admitting that God is defeated in the area of letting us know who his shepherds are today.
Was David Koresh one of these 'leaders'? How about James Jones? Come on guy, you KNOW that that the people that followed them 'thought' that they were 'the ones'! KNEW it in fact, to the point that they were willing die along side these people. Along with our Spiritual degeneration, our Spiritual discernment has degraded also. I wouldn't trust my ability to discern a 'modern leader' for one second. Nor should you for your 'spirits sake'.
And I think you chose to ignore something that I stated previous: I don't judge the hearts of those that have followed the RCC through ignorance. There have certainly been MANY that have followed this institution with nothing in their hearts other than a desire to do God's will. It's the institution itself and the teachings of it's leaders that I disagree with.
The original Church in Rome was built by the apostles that visited there. The problem wasn't the beginning of the Church, but what happened to it once it was mated with the paganism of the leaders that became more powerful once Constantine allowed the open and outright worship of Christ to flourish. Where there's masses there's money and that's what the later leaders desired most.
NO, I do not attempt to sway you to 'my way'. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I offer to you and anyone else that may choose to read these threads is a 'closer' depiction of the 'truth' than that offered by ANY church or religion. Your beliefs are yours, all I can offer is the advice that you be 'true to yourself' in this regard.
Yes, there are obvious myriad 'ways' in which to follow Christ. All one needs is to look around to see the diversity. The problem lies with the difference in 'following Christ' and 'following man' in the name of Christ.
Who now seems to misunderstand history and the present itself? Isn't the Pope closer to God than his followers? Isn't this taught in their churches? Doesn't he have the ability to either grant or deny your salvation according to your acts and beliefs? If this is not following a man-made institution, then I don't know of a better example.
I think you have confused bitterness with sorrow. I have absolutely nothing against ANY MAN except myself and my own flesh. I only offer awareness and alarm to those that don't know any better.
And another point of misunderstanding seems to be you thinking that I am making direct accusations or assumptions about you personally. I don't even know you. What I was hoping was to be able to plant a small seed that you and others may nurture and allow to grow into a better understanding. If not, so be it.
And guy, what I offer is offered out of love. Unfortunately for me, patience and humility are two things that I am still having to struggle with. My life has led to these things and because I realize that our time is limited, sometimes I feel compelled to change the world 'over-night'. Sorry for my weaknesses and I ask for your forgiveness if you feel I have attacked you personally. That's certainly not been my intention.
And the Church which Christ appointed his followers to build still exists, in the hearts of those that choose to follow God instead of man.
Oh, you asked about a civilization that has lasted as long as the Catholic church. The Egyptians had control over a civilization for over three thousand years. But NOTHING of man will last longer than God chooses to allow it. And just as they eventually were stripped of their power, the RCC will loose theirs too.