Peter not the rock nor the first Pope

[NewLifeInChrist]

This is a common logical fallacy called false dilemma, and this is one of the biggest challenges in biblical study. Many statements may seem to be contradictory on face value unless you understand the proper context and references.

What is temporary to Lord Jesus is like 2000 years plus to us - “one day with the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years one day.” Yes, of course He will come back to us, and I believe it’s near, as near as the 2030s, but that hasn’t happened, we’re not there yet. We’re not left orphans as we’ve received the Holy Spirit.

Maybe you could explain the "proper context and references" that puts the three Greek verbs in 2 Corinthians 13:5 (which are all present tense, active voice, and indicative mood verbs) into the future.

Do

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not

know

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Christ

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οὐκ11

ἐπιγινώσκετε12

ἑαυτοὺς13

ὅτι14

Ἰησοῦς15

Χριστὸς16

ἐστίν19

ἤ

οὐ

ἐπιγινώσκω

ἑαυτοῦ

ὅτι

Ἰησοῦς

Χριστός

εἰμί

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ου

γινωσκω

αυτος

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Ιησους

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CLD

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VPAI2P

RF2APM

CSC

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in

you

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—

unless

•

indeed

you

are

disqualified

.

ἐν17

ὑμῖν18

εἰ20 μή21

τι22

•

→

ἐστε24

ἀδόκιμοί23

ἐν

σύ

εἰ μή

τὶς

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The New King James Version (2 Co 13:5). (1982). Thomas Nelson.

If a person does not know (at this very moment in time) that Christ is (at this very moment in time) in them, it may be an indication that he is (at this very moment in time) not really a child of God.

Catholic Church doesn’t own Jesus, Christianity is not their intellectual property. Jesus’s physical presence extends to all nations on earth, not just Western Europe. The bottom line is, if you believe that the church is the body of Christ and the presence of his kingdom, then that’s his physical presence.

If not Catholic, what denomination teaches that Jesus does not live in the hearts of believers but that the church itself is His physical presence?

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

It wasn't Peter that the Church was built on, but Christ is the rock as being the foundation or cornerstone that the Church (the body of Christ) is built on and no where in scripture does it name the Catholic Church as the one true Church or Protestant Church as the one true Church, but says in Acts 11:26 that the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch as Christ is the foundation of the true Church not made by hands. Acts 1:1-8; 2:1-4 the apostles were instructed to stay in Jerusalem until they received power from God and then they were filled with the Holy Spirit before they could start their journey of being witnesses of Christ to teach others about the kingdom of God through Christ.

There was no apostle greater than another as they all had the same anointing and taught others from their own individual witness of Christ and His teachings as being faithful servants, even as Christ was while here on Earth.
Luke 22:
24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

Matthew 8:14 shows that Peter was married and according to the Catholic belief a Pope can not be married so Peter could have never been the first Pope or ever had a procession of Popes after him. Peter never went to Rome to establish the Catholic Church, but wrote his letters to those who were scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1Peter 1:1.
Peter wrote his letters from Babylon (Babylon as being referenced in Rev 17 as the Great Harlot) as Peter spent the last years of his life in Rome as Rome at that time was described as a center of adultery. Peter wrote his letters to the Church (body of Christ and not a building made by hands) possibly around 64AD right before the full outbreak of Christian persecution by the hand of Rome's Nero. Paul's letters were also addressed to all who are beloved of God in Rome. Not the Roman Catholic Church, but those who were beloved of God established by that rock which is Christ Jesus and not Peter. The last chapter of the book of Romans Paul sends greetings to 27 members of the church (the body of Christ), but never mentions Peter. According to the tradition of the Catholic Church of Rome, Peter was there from 42 to 67 AD. Paul wrote the book of Romans around 58 AD. Now if Peter was in Rome from 42 to 67 AD that means by 58 AD that Peter should have been there for about 16 years. Not only that but the Catholic Church tradition tells us that he was the first Pope. Why didn't Paul acknowledge Peter in His writings as being the head of the Catholic Church (Pope) since he was addressing those who were beloved of God that lived there. The reason Paul didn't mention Peter is because Peter wasn't there. Peter was crucified by Nero prior to Nero's death in 68 AD. Why would Catholic Rome crucify their own Pope.

Galatians 2:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me (Paul), as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Good morning Deb, how are you all? and thank you.

Love always, Walter

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

A solid foundation/statement, thanks.

Love, Walter

 

[for_his_glory]

Good morning Deb, how are you all? and thank you.

Love always, Walter

Doing well and praying all is well with all of you. Still working on the yard, but almost done. I wish we would had bought a turn key, but it is what it is.

God bless you and your family

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Doing well and praying all is well with all of you. Still working on the yard, but almost done. I wish we would had bought a turn key, but it is what it is.

God bless you and your family

All things work together for good to them that love The LORD,

Love, Walter

 

[Free]

Matt. 26:64 It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Jn. 7:33 I shall be with you a little while longer, and then I go to Him who sent Me.
Jn. 14:1 "I go to prepare a place for you."
Jn. 16:5-7 “But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you
Jn. 16:16 A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”
Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Acts 7:56 “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!
Rev. 12:5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

You initially said that Jesus "is in heaven, not on earth," but when presented with verses that clearly state he will live in us, as he said himself, you merely post verses that show he ascended. But that doesn't actually address the issue and seems to be a case of begging the question. You need to show how all the verses make sense as a whole.

This is particularly important because of this:

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (ESV)

Does this mean we are physically in heaven? Of course not. Are we there in some sense spiritually in Christ? That would seem to be the case. Given that then, how can you argue that Christ cannot be in us spiritually, as he said he would be, and only in heaven physically?

Most importantly, Jesus Christ comes in the FLESH, not just in ethereal, abstract spirit, this is the only litmus test that tells the Holy Spirit from all false spirits. Your understanding seems to have failed this test.


Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1 Jn. 4:1-3)

John isn't saying Jesus comes in the flesh, but that he came in the flesh. The verb for "having come" is in the perfect participle active form, meaning that it was an action completed in the past with results that are relevant to the present. John's point is that Jesus was truly human over against those who would deny his humanity, such as Docetists and Gnostics.

You should be a little more careful in saying someone's "understanding seems to have failed this test."

 

[eddif]

Now I realize I am a redneck.
Nerve networks are in us (Imagery).

To transport a message from a hurt toe to the brain takes crossing nothing at times.

Jesus (The Word / The Law made flesh)
Jesus became a Life Giving Spirit
That quickening Spirit knocks at our door and enters if we open the door and sup with Him.

Jesus is both in us and we are in Him at the same time.

Messangers carry the messages (Angels).

The way we are made in his image tells us.

The mind of Christ allows us to understand.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Maybe you could explain the "proper context and references" that puts the three Greek verbs in 2 Corinthians 13:5 (which are all present tense, active voice, and indicative mood verbs) into the future.

Again, this is referring to the Holy Spirit. If you're born again in spirit, you become a member of Christ as his physical presence on earth, you live in Christ, and you're spiritually united with him - while he is IN HEAVEN, seated at the right hand of God the Father!

But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with Him in spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Does this mean we are physically in heaven? Of course not. Are we there in some sense spiritually in Christ? That would seem to be the case. Given that then, how can you argue that Christ cannot be in us spiritually, as he said he would be, and only in heaven physically?

Because this goes back to your understanding of the Holy Trinity. If they're three “co-equal, co-eternal distinct persons", then Jesus is in heaven physically, when he's being with us spiritually that's the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. I simply don't wanna conflate Jesus the Son with the Holy Spirit, because they are two distinct beings. Also, think of the Great Multitude in Rev. 7, that's physically in heaven, isn't it?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

John isn't saying Jesus comes in the flesh, but that he came in the flesh. The verb for "having come" is in the perfect participle active form, meaning that it was an action completed in the past with results that are relevant to the present. John's point is that Jesus was truly human over against those who would deny his humanity, such as Docetists and Gnostics.

You should be a little more careful in saying someone's "understanding seems to have failed this test."

This is just a matter of rhetorics, there're numerous verses that says we're "in Christ", we're member of His church body and Christ himself is the head. The head is not physically "in" the body, but it's always connected with the body and it controls the body, the church body is not decapitated. "We're in Christ" and "Christ in us" both simply indicate that we're in one union with Christ, it feels silly to start a fight over this.

 

[Free]

Because this goes back to your understanding of the Holy Trinity. If they're three “co-equal, co-eternal distinct persons", then Jesus is in heaven physically, when he's being with us spiritually that's the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. I simply don't wanna conflate Jesus the Son with the Holy Spirit, because they are two distinct beings. Also, think of the Great Multitude in Rev. 7, that's physically in heaven, isn't it?

They are distinct persons, but you are making them completely separate beings. And, yes, it very much goes back to the Trinity. Jesus is the Son of God, the Word, the second person of the Trinity in human flesh. However, it isn't so simple and straight forward, as Jesus's statement that he is in the Father and the Father is in him indicates.

The persons of the Trinity are all the same essence or substance and are can never be separated. It's also why the Holy Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of God, the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of his Son, etc., despite remaining distinct from them both. That is, there is such intimacy among the persons, that you cannot have one without having the other two, but they are not all one and the same person.

Joh 10:38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” (ESV)

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
...
Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Joh 14:18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Joh 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
Joh 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (ESV)

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (ESV)

So, we see that Jesus, being physical, says 1) that he is in the Father, 2) that both he and the Father will be in us, and 3) the Holy Spirit will be in us. All three will be in us.

This is just a matter of rhetorics, there're numerous verses that says we're "in Christ", we're member of His church body and Christ himself is the head. The head is not physically "in" the body, but it's always connected with the body and it controls the body, the church body is not decapitated. "We're in Christ" and "Christ in us" both simply indicate that we're in one union with Christ, it feels silly to start a fight over this.

This isn't just a matter of rhetoric. It is important that we try and get things right. It's also important because you claimed someone else was guilty of a false dilemma. But then so are you, as you didn't address the verses they posted, but posted seemingly "opposing" verses. You aren't really addressing anything I've posted either. Instead of taking it all together and making sense of it, you just keep restating your position based on the verses you have given.

There is much more going on spiritually than you seem to want to admit--Jesus is in the Father, the Father is in him, and they make their home within the believer; believers are in Jesus and he in us; the Holy Spirit, also known as the Spirit of Christ and Spirit of God, indwells believers; believers are seated in heaven with Christ; etc.

All that supports the understanding previously given of 2 Cor 13:5:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (ESV)

You must make sense both of the clear statements that Jesus lives in us and that he is physically in heaven. Neither set of passages trumps the other.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

They are distinct persons, but you are making them completely separate beings. And, yes, it very much goes back to the Trinity. Jesus is the Son of God, the Word, the second person of the Trinity in human flesh. However, it isn't so simple and straight forward, as Jesus's statement that he is in the Father and the Father is in him indicates.

The persons of the Trinity are all the same essence or substance and are can never be separated. It's also why the Holy Spirit is referred to as the Spirit of God, the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of his Son, etc., despite remaining distinct from them both. That is, there is such intimacy among the persons, that you cannot have one without having the other two, but they are not all one and the same person.

Since the trinity is of one godly nature, of course the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ. When this spirit dwells in us, He always directs us towards Jesus. However, I'm talking about the person of Jesus in a physical sense, about his humanity, which you yourself pointed out. A spirit can't die on the cross to have atoned for our sins, only a real human being can. And no sinful human being can die for our sins, only the perfect sinless son of God can, that is our Lord Jesus Christ. For the record I've never denied our spiritual union with Jesus, I actually defended it in my discussion with Runningman, but a spiritual union is not physical union, as much as a union on Facebook is not a physical union in person. In Jn. 6:53-58 we're told to eat his flesh and drink his blood in order to "abides in Him and He in us", that went in an extremely, even cannibalistically physical sense that had greatly offended his audience, but that was actually a reference of the passover lamb, Israelites were instructed to eat it (Ex. 12:11), Jesus was comparing himself with the passover lamb. Please understand that overall, I'm just against the spiritualization of biblical text, especially the prophecies, that's often a sign of apostatsy.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This isn't just a matter of rhetoric. It is important that we try and get things right. It's also important because you claimed someone else was guilty of a false dilemma. But then so are you, as you didn't address the verses they posted, but posted seemingly "opposing" verses. You aren't really addressing anything I've posted either. Instead of taking it all together and making sense of it, you just keep restating your position based on the verses you have given.

I have addressed this with Jesus's own teaching of the one body union and marriage analogy, which all his audience with little or no education can understand, for God is a God of clarity, not confusion. He didn't lecture on anybody with elaborate, arcane theologies. He referenced God's original design from Gen. 2:24 - "A man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So then, they are no longer two but one flesh." (Matt. 19:5-6) In that immediate context it was his response to the question of divorce, but it goes much further than that, the ultimate marriage is Christ and his church of all nations. When we partake in his church body, we become one with him, emotionally attached to Him, intimate and intertwined with him, as a wife with her husband.

What I'm really restating is that we're NOT in a physical union with him, he's NOT in us PHYSICALLY, meanwhile I've never denied that He's in us spiritually. Right now we the church are in the betrothal - or engagement phase, that means we're legally married to Christ as his wife, while he's away from us preparing a place for us in the Father's house, a "love nest", that was a Jewish custom at his time. When He returns, that's when the marriage supper with the Lamb takes place, and then the marriage be consummated, that's when he's physically in us, as a husband is physically in his wife, if you know what I'm implying. But apparently, we're not there yet, Lord Jesus has NOT "symbolically" or "spiritually" returned, not on 70AD or any other time in history, can we at least agree on that? Indeed we're in an intimate relationship with the Lord, but this relationship has not been intimately consummated, and we shouldn't pretend that it had by telling ourselves that he's already in us.

In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.”(Jn. 14:2-6)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You must make sense both of the clear statements that Jesus lives in us and that he is physically in heaven. Neither set of passages trumps the other.

And that's the false dilemma I was referring to. We're at a wrong time in a wrong place engaged in a wrong debate. This thread is about debunking the Catholic doctrine that Peter was the first pope, it's not about the trinity.

 

[LeviR]

And that's the false dilemma I was referring to. We're at a wrong time in a wrong place engaged in a wrong debate. This thread is about debunking the Catholic doctrine that Peter was the first pope, it's not about the trinity.

A body only has one head, not two.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

A body only has one head, not two.

And when did I state or imply that it has two?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If not Catholic, what denomination teaches that Jesus does not live in the hearts of believers but that the church itself is His physical presence?

From Jesus himself: "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." "This generation" refers to the nation of Israel, symbolized as the fig tree. Since the church is an extension of Israel, grafted into the original tree (Rom. 11:16-24), this applies to the church also. The Jews and the gentiles are the two houses of Israel, with whom God made the new Covenant - "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Jer. 31:31)

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

There is much more going on spiritually than you seem to want to admit--Jesus is in the Father, the Father is in him, and they make their home within the believer; believers are in Jesus and he in us; the Holy Spirit, also known as the Spirit of Christ and Spirit of God, indwells believers; believers are seated in heaven with Christ; etc.

There truly is a lot going on spiritually inside our hearts.

Here is one thing: in Jesus lives all the fullness of the Godhead, therefore, with Him living in our hearts we are completely full...

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (Col 2:9–10)​

Here is another thing: eternal life exists in Jesus, therefore with Him living in our hearts we have eternal life...

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 Jn 5:11–12)​

And there are many other things, for without Him living in our hearts, there would be no fruit.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus (The Word / The Law made flesh)

Not the law, but the word was made flesh through Christ Jesus.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus was not the law, but came to fulfill all the laws.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Free]

And that's the false dilemma I was referring to.

Which you're appealing to...

We're at a wrong time in a wrong place engaged in a wrong debate. This thread is about debunking the Catholic doctrine that Peter was the first pope, it's not about the trinity.

No, it isn't about the Trinity, but that wasn't the thrust of my argument. You brought up the Trinity, which came about because you deny that Jesus lives in us and only is physically in heaven, hence the false dilemma on your part. It's both.

Either way, to bring it back to where the conversation diverged, we do have a direct line to God, so to speak, because God in his fullness indwells believers and because Christ's work allows it to be so. Christ is our sole mediator, not a priest, not a saint.

Mat 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Mat 6:7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words.
Mat 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Mat 6:9 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.

Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
...
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

(All ESV.)

And on it goes, depending on what one precisely means by "a direct line to God," which seems to have initially been brought up as a straw man against Protestantism. The fact that Paul opposed Peter because of Peter's sinful hypocrisy and leading believers astray throws Peter's supposed identity as the first Pope into suspicion. That is, Peter's authority was no different from any other Apostle.