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Converting to Islam...Question for Christians

I can type 100+ wpm! LOL.

But see you didn't grasp the point I was trying to make. If the Bible and all traces of the Bible are erased from the earth, and all the people who know of the Bible and what's in it are erased from the earth, Christianity can still survive.

But if we do the same thing to the Qu'ran the same is not true. Do you get me now?

And the point that I'm trying to make about needing the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible, is that only God can reveal God. Man cannot presume to understand God. By hiding His secrets in the Bible, God essentially forces man to seek Him and ask Him for understanding.

Also, if you god has blinded me, he's not very nice :shame





And that's not what I'm asking. I asked "Don't you, Hana, want to know god the same way you get to know a friend?"

Cause, sadly, it seems in Islam there is no way to have such a friendship with God, and that is the only reason I can't become a Muslim. I would lose my best friend :verysad:bigcry

Peace to you theLords:

I apologize I didn't respond to this post. Thank you for re-posting because I missed it.

If you removed all traces of the Bible's existence, you would then have to follow oral tradition. From a Muslim's perspective, if you followed the oral tradition and it remained unchanged over centuries, you would be left with Islam. We believe all the Prophets were sent with the same message and they all worshiped the same as we do today, including Adam. So, Islam would absolutely survive and Christianity would have never even existed. A Christian is one that follows Jesus, pbuh. For a Muslim, if you truly followed Jesus, pbuh, you would not have elevated His status as an equal to God.

You're right, as mere men we could never hope to know everything about our Creator. For a Muslim, when you sincerely seek and ask for His guidance He opens your heart and mind. He alone guides.

As far as blinding you to truth, Christianity has the same concept. If you truly seek Him, He will remove the blinders to allow you to seek truth.

I sincerely prayed for guidance...either to Christianity, Islam or something else if these were not true. For me, everything came together for me and started to make sense. This would be the point the veil or blinders were removed for me.

Your perception of God is as a friend. For me, a friend is my equal and I can never say God is my equal. He is my creator and is up to me to do His will. I love Him with my whole heart and soul and bow down to Him in worship. His love for us is beyond our comprehension and when I ask for guidance and forgiveness I do so with absolutely devotion and sincerity. He wants us to seek Him, to love Him, to worship Him, to ask of Him and we do.

I don't know what you mean by God hiding his secrets in the Bible. The Bible says He is not the author of confusion so understanding what He wants from us should be made clear for everyone to understand. Perhaps I am not understanding what you meant.

With peace,
Hana
 
Be careful here Hanna. The Terms of Service specifically state:

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Statement of Faith

We consider Paul's writings to be part of the inspired Word of God. This is a Christian forum and any posting(s) that is intended to purposely distort Paul's writings will not be tolerated.

Active promotion of sinful behavior will not be permitted. This includes promotion of homosexual behavior. Individual restrictions may apply on a Forum to Forum basis. Please check the announcements and stickies at the top of each Forum.

2 - No pornography links or photos. No vulgar sexual remarks. No foul language or symbols to suggest such remarks. This is a Christian site, plus, there may be young ones on the board.

3 - No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed

I'm seeing these lines being crossed when you're stating that if we truly followed Jesus we would not elevate His status to that of God.

Be careful where this thread goes. This Christian forum will not tolerate promotion of Islam and arguments against the Christian faith. These were rules you agreed to when you joined. Future statements of this kind will be subject to deletion and warnings.

This goes for everyone.

Thank you,
Mike
 
Peace to you theLords:


If you removed all traces of the Bible's existence, you would then have to follow oral tradition. From a Muslim's perspective, if you followed the oral tradition and it remained unchanged over centuries, you would be left with Islam. We believe all the Prophets were sent with the same message and they all worshiped the same as we do today, including Adam. So, Islam would absolutely survive and Christianity would have never even existed. A Christian is one that follows Jesus, pbuh. For a Muslim, if you truly followed Jesus, pbuh, you would not have elevated His status as an equal to God.

Okay, I'll explain why I presented the question the way I did.

There are places in the world (Middle East, Asia) where the Bible is banned. No one is allowed to have access to it. Being in possession of one is a crime. Yet, there are many who come to Christ, regardless, of this hindrance. How? How is it possible? What is going on that we don't know about?

If you removal ALL traces of Islam. Including oral tradition the religion dies. I mean all traces of it. (Not some, but ALL)

Do you understand?

You're right, as mere men we could never hope to know everything about our Creator. For a Muslim, when you sincerely seek and ask for His guidance He opens your heart and mind. He alone guides.


How do you trust your own heart and mind? Aren't the hearts and minds of men sinful? How can you put faith into a broken system?


Your perception of God is as a friend. For me, a friend is my equal and I can never say God is my equal. He is my creator and is up to me to do His will. I love Him with my whole heart and soul and bow down to Him in worship. His love for us is beyond our comprehension and when I ask for guidance and forgiveness I do so with absolutely devotion and sincerity. He wants us to seek Him, to love Him, to worship Him, to ask of Him and we do.

My perception of God as a friend is something Islam doesn't contain. From your posts and the way you speak about God, it's as if God is repulsed by human beings and contact with them, it's what I'm hearing in your posts.

I did not downgrade the Christian relationship with God as slave and master, all I said is Christianity offers more. Can a son be equal to his father? Interestingly, the answer is no and yes both at the same time. Can a creation be equal to it's creator? The answer is no and yes both at the same time, yet again. If you want to know why, I can explain that to you too.

I don't know what you mean by God hiding his secrets in the Bible. The Bible says He is not the author of confusion so understanding what He wants from us should be made clear for everyone to understand. Perhaps I am not understanding what you meant.

God hides His secrets in the Bible so that only His friends can have access to them. Would you walk up to a complete stranger and tell him all your secrets? Or do you only tell your secrets to your friends who you can trust? Knowing they won't mock, ridicule, or judge you.

You're misunderstanding the definition of confusion or taking it out of context. God makes His way to salvation so clear that a child can understand it and many children do. Many adults don't understand it because they already know everything. How can God teach someone who already has all the answers?


1 Corinthians 1:27
Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
 
Be careful here Hanna. The Terms of Service specifically state:

1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Statement of Faith

We consider Paul's writings to be part of the inspired Word of God. This is a Christian forum and any posting(s) that is intended to purposely distort Paul's writings will not be tolerated.

Active promotion of sinful behavior will not be permitted. This includes promotion of homosexual behavior. Individual restrictions may apply on a Forum to Forum basis. Please check the announcements and stickies at the top of each Forum.

2 - No pornography links or photos. No vulgar sexual remarks. No foul language or symbols to suggest such remarks. This is a Christian site, plus, there may be young ones on the board.

3 - No active promotion of other Faiths is allowed

I'm seeing these lines being crossed when you're stating that if we truly followed Jesus we would not elevate His status to that of God.

Be careful where this thread goes. This Christian forum will not tolerate promotion of Islam and arguments against the Christian faith. These were rules you agreed to when you joined. Future statements of this kind will be subject to deletion and warnings.

This goes for everyone.

Thank you,
Mike

Peace to you, Mike:

It was not my intent to put down Christianity in the least. I do believe I stated clearly this is a MUSLIM perspective and as a Muslim this is why we believe that. I think you misunderstood my post. I have never put down Christianity or Christians but when asked a question, I have to respond as a Muslim. I thought I had made it clear in many other posts I didn't expect any Christian to accept it, but only to educate as to what it means to us. Perhaps you can suggest how I respond to questions of my faith without it being perceived as promoting it?

Respectfully and with peace,
Hana
 
Sorry....I had a computer glitch and posted before I finished. Please see below for the correct post.
 
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Okay, I'll explain why I presented the question the way I did.

There are places in the world (Middle East, Asia) where the Bible is banned. No one is allowed to have access to it. Being in possession of one is a crime. Yet, there are many who come to Christ, regardless, of this hindrance. How? How is it possible? What is going on that we don't know about?

I honestly don't know of any country that states owning a bible is a crime. There are Christians in every part of the world as are Muslims. Some countries do make it illegal to promote other faiths, but they can surely practice their faith with no problem at all. I have also never met a revert/convert to Islam or Christianity or any other faith that ever made the claim they did so without ever knowing it existed. It just doesn't make sense, so I'm not exactly sure how you would like to me to address something that, as far as I know, never happened. (I should add that I am going to research this though as I find it very interesting). **update** I did a quick search and I couldn't find any country that makes owning a Bible illegal. Places like Vietnam, Saudi Arabia for example will not allow you to bring in a box of Bibles or Qur'ans (referring to Vietnam), for that matter, for mass distribution and promotion, but you can certainly own one. I kept seeing there were 52 countries that make the Bible illegal, but no one seems to know who these 52 countries are. Perhaps you have more information regarding this than I was able to find. I would really appreciate it if you could give me some of the countries that forbid owning a Bible. Thanks!

If you removal ALL traces of Islam. Including oral tradition the religion dies. I mean all traces of it. (Not some, but ALL)

If you remove all traces of any faith or anything it doesn't exist. So, I'm sorry, your question is just not logical to me. So, I have to say, no I don't get it. lol





How do you trust your own heart and mind? Aren't the hearts and minds of men sinful? How can you put faith into a broken system?

Yes, they are. I put my faith in God, just as you do, that what I felt in my heart was His guidance.




My perception of God as a friend is something Islam doesn't contain. From your posts and the way you speak about God, it's as if God is repulsed by human beings and contact with them, it's what I'm hearing in your posts.

No, never did I suggest He is repulsed by His creations. Not sure where you got that from in my posts??? How could He love us a thousand times more than our own Mothers yet be repulsed by us??

I did not downgrade the Christian relationship with God as slave and master, all I said is Christianity offers more. Can a son be equal to his father? Interestingly, the answer is no and yes both at the same time. Can a creation be equal to it's creator? The answer is no and yes both at the same time, yet again. If you want to know why, I can explain that to you too.

As a Muslim, my relationship with God IS as slave and master. And, there is no way, as a Muslim, I would EVER suggest I could even be 1/8th equal to my Creator, not on any level. So, yes, I would be interested in hearing your perspective on that.



God hides His secrets in the Bible so that only His friends can have access to them. Would you walk up to a complete stranger and tell him all your secrets? Or do you only tell your secrets to your friends who you can trust? Knowing they won't mock, ridicule, or judge you.

Is this not cruel to only make these secrets available to a select few? We are not strangers to God and the Holy Books provide us with information on how He expects us to behave, worship, treat others, etc., so I can't imagine why He would hide it. Unless you mean this in the same way I was referring to being blinded to the truth??

You're misunderstanding the definition of confusion or taking it out of context. God makes His way to salvation so clear that a child can understand it and many children do. Many adults don't understand it because they already know everything. How can God teach someone who already has all the answers?

I do know Jesus, pbuh, said that the way to salvation was to follow the commandments. For me, this is clear and to the point. What I do find confusing is the concept of the Trinity. Honestly, as a child I accepted it and had no problem repeating it, it was only as an adult I found it confusing. So, I readily admit, that this is not something I can comprehend. Please, let me state clearly, this is not meant to bash your faith in the least...it is solely my lack of understanding I am discussing here.


1 Corinthians 1:27
Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

My understanding of these verses is basically the same as being guided. Basically, as we said before, if you seek with all sincerity the truth will be revealed to you and hidden from those who do not. Please correct me if this is not correct.

With peace,
Hana
 
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Peace to you, Mike:

It was not my intent to put down Christianity in the least. I do believe I stated clearly this is a MUSLIM perspective and as a Muslim this is why we believe that. I think you misunderstood my post. I have never put down Christianity or Christians but when asked a question, I have to respond as a Muslim. I thought I had made it clear in many other posts I didn't expect any Christian to accept it, but only to educate as to what it means to us. Perhaps you can suggest how I respond to questions of my faith without it being perceived as promoting it?

Respectfully and with peace,
Hana

Hana, perhaps I did jump the gun, because you did say, "As a Muslim... elevate Jesus to God." My apologies.

Please continue your approach and be sure not to get to the point where you are trying to convince members of the Islamic faith. :nod
 
If you remove all traces of any faith or anything it doesn't exist.

Ah hah! You have spoken Truth. This is true for all faiths except for Christianity. Why is that? How is that possible?

Yes, they are. I put my faith in God, just as you do, that what I felt in my heart was His guidance.

I put my faith in the Spirit of God for my understanding. Not my own heart and mind. We differ here.

No, never did I suggest He is repulsed by His creations. Not sure where you got that from in my posts??? How could He love us a thousand times more than our own Mothers yet be repulsed by us??

You never stated this. It's what I "saw" when I was reading your answers.

As a Muslim, my relationship with God IS as slave and master. And, there is no way, as a Muslim, I would EVER suggest I could even be 1/8th equal to my Creator, not on any level. So, yes, I would be interested in hearing your perspective on that.

The answer can be "yes, creation can be "equal" to Creator" because the Creator is greater then His creation. He has the power to uplift His creation if He chooses. This does not make creation equal to God, because without the All Mighty, All Powerful Hand of God it's impossible. Therefore, all the glory goes right back to God.

Creation is not equal to the Creator in the sense that creation is omnipresent, omniscience, and omnipotent.

It's simply "equal" in the same way men and women are equal. It's clear to see that men and women are not equal, and yet they are equal because the Lord says so, interesting huh? So both men and women are equal yet unequal at the same time. So it really depends on the definition of the world equal.


Is this not cruel to only make these secrets available to a select few? We are not strangers to God and the Holy Books provide us with information on how He expects us to behave, worship, treat others, etc., so I can't imagine why He would hide it. Unless you mean this in the same way I was referring to being blinded to the truth??

No. God made His ways very clear available to all men. What pleases and displeases Him. How to find salvation is very clear too. Even the earth, God's creation, is a testimony and a witness for Christ and a mirror to the Bible.

God made His secrets available to His friends.

Also, God doesn't blind men, Satan does. God sets free. Satan imprisons.

I do know Jesus, pbuh, said that the way to salvation was to follow the commandments. For me, this is clear and to the point. What I do find confusing is the concept of the Trinity. Honestly, as a child I accepted it and had no problem repeating it, it was only as an adult I found it confusing. So, I readily admit, that this is not something I can comprehend. Please, let me state clearly, this is not meant to bash your faith in the least...it is solely my lack of understanding I am discussing here.

Jesus said to follow the commandments because they will lead you to salvation. He didn't say you could find salvation in the commandments.
*
John 14:5-6

"Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

You found the Trinity confusing as an adult because of the way you learned it as a child. You can learn biology in a book sitting in a classroom. But when you go into a Lab to learn biology you experience it and learn it with a greater depth. You learned of the Trinity from a book listening in a classroom, but you never experienced the Trinity outside of that classroom.

My understanding of these verses is basically the same as being guided. Basically, as we said before, if you seek with all sincerity the truth will be revealed to you and hidden from those who do not. Please correct me if this is not correct.

Sorry, but your understanding of those verses is wrong. It doesn't say one thing about God's guidance.
 
Hana, perhaps I did jump the gun, because you did say, "As a Muslim... elevate Jesus to God." My apologies.

Please continue your approach and be sure not to get to the point where you are trying to convince members of the Islamic faith. :nod

Peace to you Mike:

No problem at all. Thank you for responding. No worries about trying to convince anyone of the Islamic faith I don't have that kind of power. :) My only purpose is to share our differences, educate each other and promote tolerance.

Take care and peace to you,
 
Ah hah! You have spoken Truth. This is true for all faiths except for Christianity. Why is that? How is that possible?

You'll have to tell me because I don't believe this IS possible. Simply saying it doesn't make it true. If you erase the existence of something, it doesn't exist. period. So, what you're saying doesn't make sense to me. Will you please explain how you come to this conclusion??



I put my faith in the Spirit of God for my understanding. Not my own heart and mind. We differ here.

If you don't believe it with your heart and mind...how do you except as truth?



You never stated this. It's what I "saw" when I was reading your answers.

ok, well, thank you for agreeing I never said that. As for what you "saw", it is your opinion and are certainly entitled to that.



The answer can be "yes, creation can be "equal" to Creator" because the Creator is greater then His creation. He has the power to uplift His creation if He chooses. This does not make creation equal to God, because without the All Mighty, All Powerful Hand of God it's impossible. Therefore, all the glory goes right back to God.

Creation is not equal to the Creator in the sense that creation is omnipresent, omniscience, and omnipotent.

It's simply "equal" in the same way men and women are equal. It's clear to see that men and women are not equal, and yet they are equal because the Lord says so, interesting huh? So both men and women are equal yet unequal at the same time. So it really depends on the definition of the world equal.

While I agree that men and women are equal...not just sometimes...all times with different areas of responsibility of equal importance...a Muslim would never say he/she could be equal to the Creator in any sense. He does choose his Prophets and makes them the best of men as an example for us to follow, but they are still humans. Meaning, we don't worship them on any level in the same way I would not worship someone like Ghandi or Mother Theresa, for example. Both of whom were incredible human beings deserving of admiration and respect.

Again, this is where our faiths take a different view. :)




No. God made His ways very clear available to all men. What pleases and displeases Him. How to find salvation is very clear too. Even the earth, God's creation, is a testimony and a witness for Christ and a mirror to the Bible.

God made His secrets available to His friends.

Also, God doesn't blind men, Satan does. God sets free. Satan imprisons.

I'm confused here. You said it's made very clear and available to all men, but then say it's only made available to His friends. He is the Creator of all things so wouldn't all people be His "friends"? For a Muslim, it's very strange to speak like God needs friends or has friends. We just don't see Him that way. As I've mentioned before, for us, it's like lowering His status and we couldn't imagine any reason why God needs that to happen.

I also agree that Satan will always try to create mischief and lead us away from God.



Jesus said to follow the commandments because they will lead you to salvation. He didn't say you could find salvation in the commandments.
*
John 14:5-6

"Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

A Muslim would absolutely agree with this quote from Jesus, pbuh. However, our understanding is different. For us this verse is saying He is teaching the way the truth and the life and the only way to come to the Father is by following His message. Basically, listen to what I am teaching you, embrace it and it will lead you to truth because what I am telling you is the truth and it is coming directly from God.

I have to disagree that Jesus, pbuh, didn't say the way to salvation is by keeping the commandments. Matthew 19:15-17 seems very clear about this:

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


You found the Trinity confusing as an adult because of the way you learned it as a child. You can learn biology in a book sitting in a classroom. But when you go into a Lab to learn biology you experience it and learn it with a greater depth. You learned of the Trinity from a book listening in a classroom, but you never experienced the Trinity outside of that classroom.

I did learn it and accepted it as a child, didn't understand it, but accepted it nonetheless. But, for me, as an adult, looking at it logically it just didn't fit. How do I experience the concept of a Trinity outside? For example I believe in God, believe in Jesus and the spirit. For a Muslim, we just don't believe all 3 are one, yet separate with equal status. This is one of the most significant differences in our faith.



Sorry, but your understanding of those verses is wrong. It doesn't say one thing about God's guidance.

Would you mind explaining the Christian perspective of these verses? Thanks!

With peace,
Hana
 
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You'll have to tell me because I don't believe this IS possible. Simply saying it doesn't make it true. If you erase the existence of something, it doesn't exist. period. So, what you're saying doesn't make sense to me. Will you please explain how you come to this conclusion??

Because Jesus lives, that's how this is possible. Jesus Christ doesn't need the written word to reach people, He is the Living Word.

If you don't believe it with your heart and mind...how do you except as truth?

That's not what I said. I said I don't use my fleshly mind and heart to understand God. I put my faith in the Spirit of God, this is what causes my heart and mind to believe.

ok, well, thank you for agreeing I never said that. As for what you "saw", it is your opinion and are certainly entitled to that.

Yes, I didn't mean to confuse you or accuse you.

While I agree that men and women are equal...not just sometimes...all times with different areas of responsibility of equal importance...a Muslim would never say he/she could be equal to the Creator in any sense. He does choose his Prophets and makes them the best of men as an example for us to follow, but they are still humans. Meaning, we don't worship them on any level in the same way I would not worship someone like Ghandi or Mother Theresa, for example. Both of whom were incredible human beings deserving of admiration and respect.

Again, this is where our faiths take a different view.

You missed the point I made. I first stated that God has no equal. I then stated that it is possible for God to uplift man to His level. And that when God does that (in making one His friend) He is still the greater being because the only way for man to be brought up to His level is to be picked up by Him. That act in and of itself testifies to God's supremacy.


I'm confused here. You said it's made very clear and available to all men, but then say it's only made available to His friends. He is the Creator of all things so wouldn't all people be His "friends"? For a Muslim, it's very strange to speak like God needs friends or has friends. We just don't see Him that way. As I've mentioned before, for us, it's like lowering His status and we couldn't imagine any reason why God needs that to happen.

Salvation is not a secret. I was implying that God shares His secrets. His thoughts, His heart with His friends. Those who won't ridicule, mock, or belittle Him.

God does not need friends. He does not need anything, if He did He wouldn't be God. The Jews understood the concept of being a friend of God. Abraham was a friend of God. Your Muslim mindset doesn't even allow you to be open to such a suggestion because it is borderline blasphemous. Islam doesn't allow you to have an intimate close relationship with its god.

2 Chronicles 20:7
O our God, did you not drive out the inhabitants of this land before your people Israel and give it forever to the descendants of Abraham your friend?


John 15:12-17
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This is my command: Love each other.


A Muslim would absolutely agree with this quote from Jesus, pbuh. However, our understanding is different. For us this verse is saying He is teaching the way the truth and the life and the only way to come to the Father is by following His message. Basically, listen to what I am teaching you, embrace it and it will lead you to truth because what I am telling you is the truth and it is coming directly from God.

I have to disagree that Jesus, pbuh, didn't say the way to salvation is by keeping the commandments. Matthew 19:15-17 seems very clear about this:

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If Muslims believe this line, then all Muslims must become Christians, because Jesus Christ is the final revelation of God.

You're also taking the verse out of context, you need to read the full story of Jesus' encounter with the rich young man.

Matthew 19: 20-21
"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."


This clearly shows that the rich young man new something was missing even though he kept all the commandments of God. Then what does Jesus say to answer the question the rich young man posed? "What must I do to get eternal life?" Jesus answers: "Come, follow Me."

I did learn it and accepted it as a child but, for me, as an adult, looking at it logically it just didn't fit. How do I experience the concept of a Trinity outside? For example I believe in God, believe in Jesus and the spirit. For a Muslim, we just don't believe all 3 are one, yet separate with equal status. This is one of the most significant differences in our faith.

You were taught the concept of the Trinity. You never experienced the Godhead for yourself.

Would you mind explaining the Christian perspective of these verses? Thanks!

Those who have experienced the power of Christ, know the power of His message. Those who have not experienced the power of God think the message of the cross is complete foolishness. This is true of many people. I don't know how many times I've seen Muslims say: "How could God be 3 in 1, How could God come as a man, How could Jesus take the sins of another away etc" Which is quickly followed by a "It's complete nonsense" and then they laugh.
 
Because Jesus lives, that's how this is possible. Jesus Christ doesn't need the written word to reach people, He is the Living Word.

Muslims also believe Jesus didn't die. However, you said to remove all traces of a faith, based on that, there would be no Jesus. A Christian is a follower of Christ. You would have to remove all the Prophets all the Messengers to remove all traces. So, it still doesn't make sense. Without Jesus, there is no Christianity.



That's not what I said. I said I don't use my fleshly mind and heart to understand God. I put my faith in the Spirit of God, this is what causes my heart and mind to believe.

I could never even think to fully understand or comprehend Him...it is too much for a human. It is Him that allows us limited understanding, it is Him that fills our hearts and minds with His love and mercy which makes us want to worship Him alone.





You missed the point I made. I first stated that God has no equal. I then stated that it is possible for God to uplift man to His level. And that when God does that (in making one His friend) He is still the greater being because the only way for man to be brought up to His level is to be picked up by Him. That act in and of itself testifies to God's supremacy.

Nothing is impossible for God. Prophet Abraham was called the Friend of God because of his relentless love, devotion and worship of Him. But it was simply a description/title given to one of His chosen Prophets. For sure, according to Islam, he was also one of the greatest Prophets deserving of love and respect, but not worshiped and not placed on the same level with God. I truly cannot think of a reason God would need to bring one of His creations to His level?? Really this makes no sense to me.




Salvation is not a secret. I was implying that God shares His secrets. His thoughts, His heart with His friends. Those who won't ridicule, mock, or belittle Him.

God does not need friends. He does not need anything, if He did He wouldn't be God. The Jews understood the concept of being a friend of God. Abraham was a friend of God. Your Muslim mindset doesn't even allow you to be open to such a suggestion because it is borderline blasphemous. Islam doesn't allow you to have an intimate close relationship with its god.

You seem to be getting a little upset here. But, I agree that God would not guide those who would ridicule, mock or belittle Him. Why would He? He doesn't need us...we need Him. Actually, as mentioned above, Muslims DO consider Abraham the friend of God. But, it still doesn't mean He is on the same level with God. Not at all. If He were, why would Abraham have to worship Him? It's not considered blasphemous by Muslims...just not logical. As you've stated, it is your opinion that we don't have a close relationship with God, a Muslim's view is completely opposite.

2 Chronicles 20:7
O our God, did you not drive out the inhabitants of this land before your people Israel and give it forever to the descendants of Abraham your friend?


John 15:12-17
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This is my command: Love each other.

Muslims wouldn't really have a problem with this. The difference is, we see it as the quote from a great Prophet calling his followers "friends", whereas for a Christian He has divine status and you see it as coming from God. However, He clearly says that everything he learned from his father He made known to them. He doesn't say His father calls them friends. To me He is making a clear distinction between Himself and the Godhead.



If Muslims believe this line, then all Muslims must become Christians, because Jesus Christ is the final revelation of God.

No, because Muslims don't believe Jesus, pbuh, gave the final revelation. We believe Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, came with the final revelation and was the last Prophet sent to all mankind. Muslims believe that Muhammed, pbuh, was the comforter that Jesus, pbuh, promised.

You're also taking the verse out of context, you need to read the full story of Jesus' encounter with the rich young man.

Matthew 19: 20-21
"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."


This clearly shows that the rich young man new something was missing even though he kept all the commandments of God. Then what does Jesus say to answer the question the rich young man posed? "What must I do to get eternal life?" Jesus answers: "Come, follow Me."

Yes, I did read the entire story and it does go on to list all the commandments. Once done He asked what else he could do and was told to sell his possessions and the man was sad because he had so much. Jesus, then went on to tell His disciples that it would be easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle than to enter paradise.

The bottom line is the same....Keep the commandments.



You were taught the concept of the Trinity. You never experienced the Godhead for yourself.

Well, that's why I became a Muslim. For me, it was THE way to experience God.



Those who have experienced the power of Christ, know the power of His message. Those who have not experienced the power of God think the message of the cross is complete foolishness. This is true of many people. I don't know how many times I've seen Muslims say: "How could God be 3 in 1, How could God come as a man, How could Jesus take the sins of another away etc" Which is quickly followed by a "It's complete nonsense" and then they laugh.

Of course a Muslim will not accept the 3 in 1 concept, we don't accept the trinity. We also do not accept the concept of Original Sin or comprehend the idea of another man taking responsibility for our sins. Ezekiel 18:20, Jeremiah 31:30, Deuteronomy 24:16, Mark 10:14 and Matthew 19:14 confirms one is responsible for their own inequities and it is a part of my former faith I simply didn't understand. So, for a Muslim, particularly one that does not have a lot of knowledge about Christianity, it does sound like nonsense to them because we are taught, in no uncertain terms, that we alone are responsible for everything we do, be it good, bad or indifferent. On the day of Judgment we alone will answer for our behaviour. So, while a Muslim shouldn't mock another faith, it is simply a concept that is not comprehensible based on the teachings of Islam.

With peace,
Hana
 
His name is Joshua Evans. He claims to have been a youth minister/Christian. He has several videos explaining his conversion to Islam, but he contradicts himself in so much as where he started from in his beliefs when you start to go through the videos.

I contend that no one who truly accepts Christ could be drawn into this, or any other religion....key phrase "truly accepts Christ". However, many of his thoughts on why he left Christianity tend to square well with some thoughts I hear from people who claim Christianity as he claims he once did.

As my priest once said when I asked him why a few early Church writers wrote dissenting opinions against our Church, "Every fold has its dead." Just because this dude was a youth minister, doesn't mean his opinion has any more weight than it does stupidity. Stalin was in a seminary, and dropped out. This guy was a minister and dropped out. That's how they weed out.. well.. the weeds that are going to be burnt on Judgment Day (Matthew 13:24-30).
 
Muslims also believe Jesus didn't die. However, you said to remove all traces of a faith, based on that, there would be no Jesus. A Christian is a follower of Christ. You would have to remove all the Prophets all the Messengers to remove all traces. So, it still doesn't make sense. Without Jesus, there is no Christianity.

Your religion believes that Jesus got replaced in the last moment by Judas on the cross. Not only does that contradict early historical tradition (Acts 1:18-19, Matthew 27:1ff.), but common sense: how they could have crucified the wrong man when he was right in front of them, and then somehow not notice it when he was being taken down from the cross (assuming the substitution happened midway), is beyond any Muslim scholar! Not to mention this view (along with a ton of other stuff) was lifted by the Muslims from the Gnostic view that Jesus was replaced by Judas, dating as early as 135 by Basilides! Countless legends from Jewish, Christian, and even pagan sources ensue the Koran. For example, the legend of the three sleeping youths is in there, multitudes of unhistorical anecdotes from the Talmud and Babylonian Talmud, not to mention Greek and ancient Semitic views by Hippocrates and Galen about human anatomy, or a human being, being derived from a "blood clot", which as multitudes of Muslims will try to argue with you that it is so, is apparently also the view of the ancient Greek doctors. Plato held that man came from a drop coming from the spine behind the rib-cage in the abdomen just like the Quran. Countless legends and superstition abound that imaginative book called the Koran.


Nothing is impossible for God. Prophet Abraham was called the Friend of God because of his relentless love, devotion and worship of Him. But it was simply a description/title given to one of His chosen Prophets. For sure, according to Islam, he was also one of the greatest Prophets deserving of love and respect, but not worshiped and not placed on the same level with God. I truly cannot think of a reason God would need to bring one of His creations to His level?? Really this makes no sense to me.

Well Abraham was not God Incarnate, my confused friend.


You seem to be getting a little upset here. But, I agree that God would not guide those who would ridicule, mock or belittle Him. Why would He? He doesn't need us...we need Him. Actually, as mentioned above, Muslims DO consider Abraham the friend of God. But, it still doesn't mean He is on the same level with God. Not at all. If He were, why would Abraham have to worship Him? It's not considered blasphemous by Muslims...just not logical. As you've stated, it is your opinion that we don't have a close relationship with God, a Muslim's view is completely opposite.

No doubt the poster was getting upset. Reasoning with a muslim determined to make black be white is fairly upsetting. Nobody said being God's friend made one equal to God. It clearly implies a special place for Abraham since God is of course, to be worshipped.

Muslims wouldn't really have a problem with this. The difference is, we see it as the quote from a great Prophet calling his followers "friends", whereas for a Christian He has divine status and you see it as coming from God. However, He clearly says that everything he learned from his father He made known to them. He doesn't say His father calls them friends. To me He is making a clear distinction between Himself and the Godhead.

It's not necessary for God to call them friends, and it in no way makes a distinction between Jesus and the Godhead; if anything the allegory that was pointed out to you should suggest the opposite. But either way, Psalm 110:1 is cited by Jesus in Mark 12:35-40 as proof that the Messiah (i.e. Jesus talking about himself) is co-equal with God, and thus part of the Godhead, and that's all anyone needs to say to your argument.


No, because Muslims don't believe Jesus, pbuh, gave the final revelation. We believe Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, came with the final revelation and was the last Prophet sent to all mankind. Muslims believe that Muhammed, pbuh, was the comforter that Jesus, pbuh, promised.

As a Jewish sage said to a fellow Jew wondering about the rise of Islam, in a document called the Doctrina Jacobi, written in the 7th century, prophets don't come with the sword. And in any case, you might as well upgrade to the latest "last prophet" religion - Mormonism.


Yes, I did read the entire story and it does go on to list all the commandments. Once done He asked what else he could do and was told to sell his possessions and the man was sad because he had so much. Jesus, then went on to tell His disciples that it would be easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle than to enter paradise.

The bottom line is the same....Keep the commandments.

No, the bottom line was that if the rich man truly followed God by faith, his works would have shown that, not the other way around. As Paul quoted Habakkuk 2:4, you only need a living faith (Hebrew: amunah), and not any rituals.


Well, that's why I became a Muslim. For me, it was THE way to experience God.

Is that in any way similar to how one experiences sunburn when forgetting to put sunscreen on?? Just curious.



Of course a Muslim will not accept the 3 in 1 concept, we don't accept the trinity. We also do not accept the concept of Original Sin or comprehend the idea of another man taking responsibility for our sins. Ezekiel 18:20, Jeremiah 31:30, Deuteronomy 24:16, Mark 10:14 and Matthew 19:14 confirms one is responsible for their own inequities and it is a part of my former faith I simply didn't understand. So, for a Muslim, particularly one that does not have a lot of knowledge about Christianity, it does sound like nonsense to them because we are taught, in no uncertain terms, that we alone are responsible for everything we do, be it good, bad or indifferent. On the day of Judgment we alone will answer for our behaviour. So, while a Muslim shouldn't mock another faith, it is simply a concept that is not comprehensible based on the teachings of Islam.

You can cite as many verses as you want out of context (for example Matthew 19:14 has nothing to support your argument), but someone bearing your sins is nothing incomprehensible, seeing that one has been brought under penitence. Otherwise, the point of justice, would be to try to punish someone who has changed, which is the true nonsense, my dear, confused friend:

Ezekiel 18:20 - "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."

No Christian would disagree that a righteous son does not get punished for an unrighteous father's ungodliness.

Jeremiah 31:30 - "Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge."

No Christian denies that God punishes the sins of each man for his own actions.

Deuteronomy 24:16 - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

This has to do with social justice as per the Mosaic Law. Some knowledgeable ex-Christian you are.

Mark 10:14 - 'When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.'

How does this relate? That the little children themselves are accountable for coming to God's kingdom? What Christian disputes that?

Matthew 19:14 - 'Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."'

Same answer as to Mark 10:14.

This just goes to show that you have no knowledge of the concept of Christ's sacrifice. You seem to have confused having committed a sin in the past (legalistic/technical - what Christ's sacrifice accounts for) with continuing to commit sins and being accountable for the absense of repentance (the application of the verses you cited).
 
Your religion believes that Jesus got replaced in the last moment by Judas on the cross. Not only does that contradict early historical tradition (Acts 1:18-19, Matthew 27:1ff.), but common sense: how they could have crucified the wrong man when he was right in front of them, and then somehow not notice it when he was being taken down from the cross (assuming the substitution happened midway), is beyond any Muslim scholar! Not to mention this view (along with a ton of other stuff) was lifted by the Muslims from the Gnostic view that Jesus was replaced by Judas, dating as early as 135 by Basilides! Countless legends from Jewish, Christian, and even pagan sources ensue the Koran. For example, the legend of the three sleeping youths is in there, multitudes of unhistorical anecdotes from the Talmud and Babylonian Talmud, not to mention Greek and ancient Semitic views by Hippocrates and Galen about human anatomy, or a human being, being derived from a "blood clot", which as multitudes of Muslims will try to argue with you that it is so, is apparently also the view of the ancient Greek doctors. Plato held that man came from a drop coming from the spine behind the rib-cage in the abdomen just like the Quran. Countless legends and superstition abound that imaginative book called the Koran.

Not sure what you're on about here as it has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation between theLords and myself. I have never insulted your Holy Book and not exactly sure why you would insult mine?




Well Abraham was not God Incarnate, my confused friend.

I don't recall anyone saying He was?? Again, your comment doesn't match the conversation.




No doubt the poster was getting upset. Reasoning with a muslim determined to make black be white is fairly upsetting. Nobody said being God's friend made one equal to God. It clearly implies a special place for Abraham since God is of course, to be worshipped.

My purpose in being concerned the poster was getting upset was to ensure I didn't say something offensive as it was never my intent. We were discussing my reversion to Islam and sharing my understanding while the poster also shared with me. Again, you seem to not have read all the posts as you seem to feel this is a debate about the accuracy of Biblical text. It's not.



It's not necessary for God to call them friends, and it in no way makes a distinction between Jesus and the Godhead; if anything the allegory that was pointed out to you should suggest the opposite. But either way, Psalm 110:1 is cited by Jesus in Mark 12:35-40 as proof that the Messiah (i.e. Jesus talking about himself) is co-equal with God, and thus part of the Godhead, and that's all anyone needs to say to your argument.

Actually, there was no argument at all. The conversation is about my reversion and what ultimately lead me to embrace Islam. However, to me this verse is Jesus, pbuh, asking why the scribes say He is the son of David and he quotes David to prove His point.




As a Jewish sage said to a fellow Jew wondering about the rise of Islam, in a document called the Doctrina Jacobi, written in the 7th century, prophets don't come with the sword. And in any case, you might as well upgrade to the latest "last prophet" religion - Mormonism.

Do you not consider Jesus, pbuh, the last messenger of God even in His state of divinity? So I could suggest the same to you? However, considering Muslims believe Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, was the last Prophet sent to all mankind, anyone else claiming to be a Prophet would be a lie. So, suggesting we accept anyone after Muhammed, pbuh, is a little silly.




No, the bottom line was that if the rich man truly followed God by faith, his works would have shown that, not the other way around. As Paul quoted Habakkuk 2:4, you only need a living faith (Hebrew: amunah), and not any rituals.

The man Jesus, pbuh, spoke to did do everything asked of him, so what is the purpose in him selling all his possessions? What you said seems contradictory to me. Perhaps I'm missing something.




Is that in any way similar to how one experiences sunburn when forgetting to put sunscreen on?? Just curious.

I have no idea what you're on about here??





You can cite as many verses as you want out of context (for example Matthew 19:14 has nothing to support your argument), but someone bearing your sins is nothing incomprehensible, seeing that one has been brought under penitence. Otherwise, the point of justice, would be to try to punish someone who has changed, which is the true nonsense, my dear, confused friend:

Not exactly sure why you are suggesting I am taking verses out of context??? Matthew 19:14 means children are sinless and for a Muslim that means the concept of Original Sin does not exist.

Ezekiel 18:20 - "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."

No Christian would disagree that a righteous son does not get punished for an unrighteous father's ungodliness.

Muslims also believe this, but Christians believe in Original Sin, so for me this didn't make sense.

Jeremiah 31:30 - "Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge."

No Christian denies that God punishes the sins of each man for his own actions.

Deuteronomy 24:16 - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin."

This has to do with social justice as per the Mosaic Law. Some knowledgeable ex-Christian you are.

I would agree this is Mosaic Law. Where does this law come from? You know as well as I do it is from God. And it still means all take responsibility for our own sins, and for a Muslim, it means no Original Sin. BTW, insulting me doesn't make your comment any more valid. But, if it makes you feel better, please feel free. :)

Mark 10:14 - 'When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.'

How does this relate? That the little children themselves are accountable for coming to God's kingdom? What Christian disputes that?

Matthew 19:14 - 'Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."'

Same answer as to Mark 10:14.

Again, meaning they are sinless. No original sin.

This just goes to show that you have no knowledge of the concept of Christ's sacrifice. You seem to have confused having committed a sin in the past (legalistic/technical - what Christ's sacrifice accounts for) with continuing to commit sins and being accountable for the absense of repentance (the application of the verses you cited).

As a Muslim, I do not believe Jesus, pbuh, had to die in order for my sins to be forgiven. I repent to God. So it's not that I have confused it, or have no knowledge of the concept, I simply don't believe it.

With peace,
Hana
 
Without Jesus, there is no Christianity.

The point I'm trying to make is Jesus doesn't need anyone or anything to witness for HIm. You can search on YouTube the countless tales of Jesus Christ appearing to people in visions and dreams and accounts of people being taking up into heaven and shown hell. If you remove all traces of Islam it disappears cause Muhammad is dead. If you do the same to Christianity it does not disappear. How many testimonies of "Muhammad came and took me to heaven and showed me hell are there?" None.

I could never even think to fully understand or comprehend Him...it is too much for a human. It is Him that allows us limited understanding, it is Him that fills our hearts and minds with His love and mercy which makes us want to worship Him alone.

You're not hearing what I'm saying, but that's okay ;)

I truly cannot think of a reason God would need to bring one of His creations to His level?? Really this makes no sense to me.

The Bible says that "God is no respecter of persons." This means that what God gives to one, He gives to another. What He does for one, He does for another. It was not simply a title like "king" is. It is a term of endearment. There are "Abrahams, Isaacs, Deborahs, Davids, Marys" all over the Church body today. I never said Abraham was worshipped. God doesn't need to bring anyone up to His level. He exalts His Beloved for no other reason than pure love.


You seem to be getting a little upset here. But, I agree that God would not guide those who would ridicule, mock or belittle Him. Why would He? He doesn't need us...we need Him. Actually, as mentioned above, Muslims DO consider Abraham the friend of God. But, it still doesn't mean He is on the same level with God. Not at all. If He were, why would Abraham have to worship Him? It's not considered blasphemous by Muslims...just not logical. As you've stated, it is your opinion that we don't have a close relationship with God, a Muslim's view is completely opposite.

I'm not getting upset! No worries ;) I enjoy talking with you. It causes me to reflect on the Word of God and I love that the most.

Also, I didn't say anything about God not "guiding" those who mock or belittle Him. God actually does guide those who mock and belittle Him. He guides the worst of sinners to salvation. The worst of sinners understand the severity of their sin and therefore are able to love God with a fervent gratitude. "Whoever is forgiveth much, loveth much." Again, I never stated that God needs us. Nor did I say that Abraham is on the same level with God. You're either unintentionally twisting my words or not reading my posts lol. I never stated that being a friend of God is being equal to God. You stated that "you could never believe God can be your friend because that would be making yourself an equal to God." Right? So based on that, I was trying to show you the beauty and love of God. I guess you're just not seeing what I'm trying to show you.

To me He is making a clear distinction between Himself and the Godhead.

The God of the OT Bible called His people His friends. The God of the NT Bible is doing the same.

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."

Making a clear distinction between the two? Given this proof that's not a true statement.

Muslims believe that Muhammed, pbuh, was the comforter that Jesus, pbuh, promised.

The Comforter promised is a Spirit who will live forever. Muhammad is not was a man not a spirit and he did not live forever. Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets who will come after me." Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Last.

Yes, I did read the entire story and it does go on to list all the commandments. Once done He asked what else he could do and was told to sell his possessions and the man was sad because he had so much. Jesus, then went on to tell His disciples that it would be easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle than to enter paradise.

The bottom line is the same....Keep the commandments.

No. The bottom line is: This man kept all the commandments. Jesus Christ acknowledged this. But this man still knew something was missing which is why he asked Jesus a second time. Jesus said, "Come and follow Me." He was said because he had to sell all his many possessions to be a dirt poor follow of Christ. He was asked to give up his entire way of life.

Well, that's why I became a Muslim. For me, it was THE way to experience God.

Exactly. You learned about the Trinity in from a book and a teacher telling you "believe because I said so." You never experienced the Trinity for yourself. It left you empty and unsatisfied. So you left to find something to satisfy you. It satisfies you because you don't know that anything better exists. A poor child growing up in Africa doesn't have many (if any) hopes and aspirations. Now say that same child one day sees a better future on TV. Because of that experience (seeing something better on TV) he now knows that something better exists. Without that experience He would never know.

Of course a Muslim will not accept the 3 in 1 concept, we don't accept the trinity. We also do not accept the concept of Original Sin or comprehend the idea of another man taking responsibility for our sins. Ezekiel 18:20, Jeremiah 31:30, Deuteronomy 24:16, Mark 10:14 and Matthew 19:14 confirms one is responsible for their own inequities and it is a part of my former faith I simply didn't understand. So, for a Muslim, particularly one that does not have a lot of knowledge about Christianity, it does sound like nonsense to them because we are taught, in no uncertain terms, that we alone are responsible for everything we do, be it good, bad or indifferent. On the day of Judgment we alone will answer for our behaviour. So, while a Muslim shouldn't mock another faith, it is simply a concept that is not comprehensible based on the teachings of Islam.

Exactly. What you have said proves my point entirely. The concepts of Christianity is complete illogical foolishness to those that are perishing.

Not exactly sure why you are suggesting I am taking verses out of context??? Matthew 19:14 means children are sinless and for a Muslim that means the concept of Original Sin does not exist.

Even though you didn't give me this reply I did want to address it. I think you're a bit confused as to what Christians believe in terms of "Original Sin." You're both right and wrong in that children are sinless. We believe that Adam's "Sin Nature" is inherited through the generations. Not his own personal sins. Simply, that desire to sin against God. Everyone on earth is born with a "sin nature." It is very easy to see that a child is capable of disobedience. You have seen it yourself with your own eyes I'm sure.


** Mommy says to 2 year old Jack, "Jack- do not jump off the couch like that you're going to get hurt!" Jack does it any way. He disobeys Mommy. He doesn't get hurt. So he does it again. Again Mommy says, "Jack- stop that!" Mommy gets mad and puts him in a time out. Then she walks into the kitchen to get dinner out of the oven. Jack gets out of his time out. He jumps off the couch again because it's so much fun, he can't help it. Mommy hears a loud crash and Jack wailing. He is sobbing. He fell this time and got hurt and bumped his head. Mommy rushes in and picks him up and comforts him. "Do you now see why I told you not to do that, Jack?" Jack murmurs a "Yes, I'm sorry Mommy" as she comforts his throbbing head."**

Do you see what I mean? Jack is 2 years old. How is Jack capable of disobedience? No one taught him to disobey. No one encouraged it in him. Where does that desire come from? Children of that age are too young to understand right from wrong, so they are not ACCOUNTABLE for their sins. A 10 year old who plays with his ball in the house and breaks a window sins against his mother who told him not to do it and he is old enough to receive a punishment from her. But that same 10 year old is not old enough to be accountable before God over his sins yet. He's reaching that age whoever. Most Christians believe the age of accountability is anywhere from "13 to 20." The brain is not fully developed until around 20 years old. This is the reason teenagers get into so much trouble. They cannot understand the consequences of their actions because their brain is underdeveloped.

I would agree this is Mosaic Law. Where does this law come from? You know as well as I do it is from God. And it still means all take responsibility for our own sins, and for a Muslim, it means no Original Sin. BTW, insulting me doesn't make your comment any more valid. But, if it makes you feel better, please feel free.

Under Mosaic Law the Jews sacrificed a spotless lamb once a year to take away their sins. Only that blood cleansed them before God's eyes. Mosaic Law is not the same as Islamic Law.
 
The point I'm trying to make is Jesus doesn't need anyone or anything to witness for HIm. You can search on YouTube the countless tales of Jesus Christ appearing to people in visions and dreams and accounts of people being taking up into heaven and shown hell. If you remove all traces of Islam it disappears cause Muhammad is dead. If you do the same to Christianity it does not disappear. How many testimonies of "Muhammad came and took me to heaven and showed me hell are there?" None.

Because Muslims also believe Jesus, pbuh, is still alive this still doesn't prove that Islam would no longer exist. Yes, Prophet Muhammed, pbuh, is dead, just like every other Prophet before Him except Jesus, pbuh. Muhammed's, mission on this earth was complete. He did as God ordained Him to do. Jesus, pbuh, did as well, but His mission will be complete when He returns. So, as I said, a Muslim wouldn't accept this as anything except what you want to believe. Muslims believe when He returns it will be proven He will be following the religion of Islam, Christians believe opposite.


The Bible says that "God is no respecter of persons." This means that what God gives to one, He gives to another. What He does for one, He does for another. It was not simply a title like "king" is. It is a term of endearment. There are "Abrahams, Isaacs, Deborahs, Davids, Marys" all over the Church body today. I never said Abraham was worshipped. God doesn't need to bring anyone up to His level. He exalts His Beloved for no other reason than pure love.

Muslims do not believe that all people are deserving of the same mercies and blessings from God. Someone who constantly sins and never repents or turns to God for help and guidance is not worthy of all His blessings until he submits to His creator and asks for mercy. I didn't say you said Abraham was worshipped...but that's exactly my point. lol He wasn't worshipped even though He was a chosen Prophet just like Jesus was, pbuta.

Also, I didn't say anything about God not "guiding" those who mock or belittle Him. God actually does guide those who mock and belittle Him. He guides the worst of sinners to salvation. The worst of sinners understand the severity of their sin and therefore are able to love God with a fervent gratitude. "Whoever is forgiveth much, loveth much." Again, I never stated that God needs us. Nor did I say that Abraham is on the same level with God. You're either unintentionally twisting my words or not reading my posts lol. I never stated that being a friend of God is being equal to God. You stated that "you could never believe God can be your friend because that would be making yourself an equal to God." Right? So based on that, I was trying to show you the beauty and love of God. I guess you're just not seeing what I'm trying to show you.

For a Muslim, God will not guide those who reject Him until they come to Him and ask for it. Why would He? This is my point. He doesn't need those people, THEY need HIM. I would never intentionally twist your words, but for me, when you say you are a friend of God you are placing yourself on a very high status. As a Muslim, we believe we see His love and mercy every day. The love of a mother to her child is NOTHING compared to the love He has for His creations especially when they turn to Him in worship and guidance. He wants us to go to Him. I just simply don't believe it is necessary to portray that as Him being my friend. :)

The God of the OT Bible called His people His friends. The God of the NT Bible is doing the same.

God can do whatever He pleases and elevate the status of anyone He chooses. But, His creations are limited in that capacity.

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one."

Jesus says about his disciples: “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me†(John 17:21). I'm should you would never accept a 15 member godhead that included the 12 disciples. Of course not. The 2 verses mean the same thing....one in purpose.

The Comforter promised is a Spirit who will live forever. Muhammad is not was a man not a spirit and he did not live forever. Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets who will come after me." Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Last.

Melchizedek was also given divinity, had no beginning or end and without mother or father, but is not worshipped as God? You'll have to give me the exact verse you are referring to, but if it's the one I think it is, we believe this to mean the revelation given to the final comforter will live forever exactly as it was revealed. Muslims believe this is the Qur'an which is still recited today the same way it was revealed to Prophet Muhammed, pbuh.

No. The bottom line is: This man kept all the commandments. Jesus Christ acknowledged this. But this man still knew something was missing which is why he asked Jesus a second time. Jesus said, "Come and follow Me." He was said because he had to sell all his many possessions to be a dirt poor follow of Christ. He was asked to give up his entire way of life.

As Muslims we believe God is the provider and sustainer of all things. If He gives me wealth, I can use it for myself and be greedy or I can use it to provide for the poor for the love of Him. Basically, it sounds like only the poor can be true followers of Christ? So, do all Christians have to give up their wealth to be true Christians? What would be the true purposes in asking this man to give up his wealth?

Exactly. You learned about the Trinity in from a book and a teacher telling you "believe because I said so." You never experienced the Trinity for yourself. It left you empty and unsatisfied. So you left to find something to satisfy you. It satisfies you because you don't know that anything better exists. A poor child growing up in Africa doesn't have many (if any) hopes and aspirations. Now say that same child one day sees a better future on TV. Because of that experience (seeing something better on TV) he now knows that something better exists. Without that experience He would never know.

Even a poor child in Africa most likely believes in a Creator without the benefit of any holy book. I could go teach them about Islam and they may or may not reject their beliefs and accept it. And the same for Christianity. I had benefit of knowing the trinity, i had the beneift of accessing the people that should have been able to explain it...they couldn't. In my opinion, and as my belief as a Muslim, it can't be explained because it just doesn't make sense. One would have to accept the trinity based on faith alone. I still have the benefit of asking and learning and it only confirms that my decision to revert was the right one for me.

Exactly. What you have said proves my point entirely. The concepts of Christianity is complete illogical foolishness to those that are perishing.

Or illogical foolishness to those who feel they have found the truth based on a different teaching and faith. :)


Continued below....
 
Even though you didn't give me this reply I did want to address it. I think you're a bit confused as to what Christians believe in terms of "Original Sin." You're both right and wrong in that children are sinless. We believe that Adam's "Sin Nature" is inherited through the generations. Not his own personal sins. Simply, that desire to sin against God. Everyone on earth is born with a "sin nature." It is very easy to see that a child is capable of disobedience. You have seen it yourself with your own eyes I'm sure.

If a baby dies before being baptised...does he/she die sinless?? I know many Christian faiths that will tell you NO, they die in sin. However, I don't know what sect of Christianity you follow, so I will leave this question to your opinion.

** Mommy says to 2 year old Jack, "Jack- do not jump off the couch like that you're going to get hurt!" Jack does it any way. He disobeys Mommy. He doesn't get hurt. So he does it again. Again Mommy says, "Jack- stop that!" Mommy gets mad and puts him in a time out. Then she walks into the kitchen to get dinner out of the oven. Jack gets out of his time out. He jumps off the couch again because it's so much fun, he can't help it. Mommy hears a loud crash and Jack wailing. He is sobbing. He fell this time and got hurt and bumped his head. Mommy rushes in and picks him up and comforts him. "Do you now see why I told you not to do that, Jack?" Jack murmurs a "Yes, I'm sorry Mommy" as she comforts his throbbing head."**

Do you see what I mean? Jack is 2 years old. How is Jack capable of disobedience? No one taught him to disobey. No one encouraged it in him. Where does that desire come from? Children of that age are too young to understand right from wrong, so they are not ACCOUNTABLE for their sins. A 10 year old who plays with his ball in the house and breaks a window sins against his mother who told him not to do it and he is old enough to receive a punishment from her. But that same 10 year old is not old enough to be accountable before God over his sins yet. He's reaching that age whoever. Most Christians believe the age of accountability is anywhere from "13 to 20." The brain is not fully developed until around 20 years old. This is the reason teenagers get into so much trouble. They cannot understand the consequences of their actions because their brain is underdeveloped.

The difference is, he is a child unable to understand consequence and is learning they way all innocent children learn. He is not sinful to God or blatently ignoring the commandments of God. He is innocent and not responsible until he/she reaches puberty where his level of understanding is more developed. He's not misbehaving because of a sinful nature...he's misbehaving because he lacks understanding.

Under Mosaic Law the Jews sacrificed a spotless lamb once a year to take away their sins. Only that blood cleansed them before God's eyes. Mosaic Law is not the same as Islamic Law.

We sacrifice animals a few times a year in God's name as a remembrance of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice and to thank Him for our blessings that allow us to feed the poor. The Jews still turned to God Almighty for forgiveness of sin, just as Muslims do today.

With peace,
Hana
 
Hana said:
Muslims also believe Jesus didn't die.
This implies that Christians believe that Jesus didn't die. This is incorrect. Jesus did die - He was dead for three days, and then rose from the dead. After appearing to many wittnesses, He was then taken up into Heaven. Yes, Jesus is alive, but He also died.

Now, can we please get back to the topic?
 
This implies that Christians believe that Jesus didn't die. This is incorrect. Jesus did die - He was dead for three days, and then rose from the dead. After appearing to many wittnesses, He was then taken up into Heaven. Yes, Jesus is alive, but He also died.

Now, can we please get back to the topic?

Peace to you, Nick:

Actually, this was part of the topic. Perhaps you didn't have the opportunity to read all the posts. However, if you would like to start a new thread on this topic alone, I would be more than happy to explain why I worded it that way. However, in the end, both faith believes He is alive and will return.

With peace,
Hana
 
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