Could God's plan for the lost be this simple?

[Hopeful]

A grave is not the "lowest parts of the earth"

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Deut. 32:22 KJV)

It is the lowest part Jesus descended into.

 

[Hopeful]

Bible Question:
When was the book of Revelation written? You need to do a little more research concerning the dating for the Book of Revelation. Ken Gentry in his book, “Before Jerusalem Fell” cites evidence for a pre 70 AD date. The only source for the 95 date was Irenaeus, who by the way said that Jesus died at 50 years of age! Both John A.T. Robertson and William Foxwell Albright dated the NT as having been written between 20-80 AD! Finally, Moses Stuart writing in 1835 said that in his day the majority of scholars held to a pre 70 AD date. “Only the fool deceives himself. ”

Bible Answer:​

The book of Revelation was written by the apostle John (Revelation 1:1, 4, 9; 22:8). That is the internal evidence of the book and the external testimony of early church fathers. The Muratorian Fragment, an early document listing most of the books belonging to the New Testament, states that the apostle John wrote the Apocalypse or Revelation.

The dating of the book of Revelation has sometimes been driven by one’s view of future things. Since Ken Gentry is a preterist, that is, someone who believes that Jesus Christ returned in A.D. 70, it is not surprising that he wants a pre-A.D. 70 date for the book of Revelation. The bigger question is what did the early church fathers actually say about the book of Revelation? Listen to the following evidence from men who hold different theological viewpoints about the future.

William Hendricksen, a well-known amillennialist, who has written a commentary set on the New Testament, makes this comment about the date of the book of Revelation.

The question now arises, when did John write the Apocalypse? In the year 69 (or even earlier), or must we reverse the figure and make it 96 (or perhaps 95)? One cannot find a single really cogent argument in support of the earlier date. The arguments produced are based on late and unreliable testimonies, on the wholly imaginary idea that John did not yet know his Greek when he wrote the Apocalypse, and on a very questionable literal interpretation of certain passages . . . The late date has very strong support. Says, Irenaeus: “For that (the apocalyptic vision) was seen not a very long time since, but almost in our own day, toward the end of Domitian’s reign.” Again he says: “. . . the church in Ephesus founded by Paul, and lived in by John until the time of Trajan (AD 98-117), is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.”[1]

It is important to note that Domitian’s reign occurred during the years of A.D 81-96.[2] This supports Dr. Hendricksen’s statement that the book of Revelation was written around A.D. 95. Irenaeus says that Revelation was written near the end of Domitian’s reign, and since Domitian ruled as Caesar after A.D. 81 to A.D. 96, a date of A.D. 95 for Revelation is the most credible date for its authorship.

G. K. Beale quotes Swete’s conclusion about the date of Revelation’s authorship with this comment,

Sweet’s conclusion about the issue of Revelation’s date reflects a balanced judgment: “To sum up, the earlier date may be right, but the internal evidence is not sufficient to outweigh the firm tradition stemming from Irenaeus.”[3]

Dr. J. MacArthur, a premillennialist, makes these comments

Those who hold to the early date [pre- A.D. 70] see in Jerusalem’s destruction the prophesied second coming of Jesus Christ in its first phase. External evidence for the earlier (Neronian) date is almost nonexistent. On the other hand, the view that the apostle John penned Revelation near the end of Domitian’s reign was widely held in the early church. The second-century church father Irenaeus wrote . . .[see above quote] . . . The church fathers Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus, Eusebius, and Jerome also affirm that Revelation was written during Domitian’s reign . . . The testimony of the early church that Revelation was written during Domitian’s reign is difficult to explain if it was actually written during Nero’s reign.[4]

Conclusion:​

The evidence supporting a A.D. 95 authorship for the book of Revelation is not based solely on Irenaeus. it is based on the statements of numerous early church fathers.

https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written/

The fact you wrote "church fathers", makes me doubt every word you supplied.
They "fathered" no church.

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus clearly teaches in EVERY translation on earth.--Matt 6:33--Therefore, keep on seeking-FIRST - the kingdom and his( YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness--And John 17:3 where he clearly teaches--The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD--His real teachers that have him teach exactly what he taught. So no they are not christian, The teaching of a trinity is calling Jesus a liar--Not a wise place to be standing

Do "His real teachers" commit sin?

 

[Alfred Persson]

It is the lowest part Jesus descended into.

Incorrect. The antithesis to the grave is to be above ground on earth. About 6 or seven feet difference in elevation.

Scripture gives an antithesis that contrasts ascending FAR ABOVE ALL THE HEAVENS, to descending to the Lowest Sheol:

9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:9-10 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

The fact you wrote "church fathers", makes me doubt every word you supplied.
They "fathered" no church.

They are called "fathers" because of their proximity to the apostles in time, and because they begat other apologists:

For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (1 Cor. 4:15 NKJ)

Not because they "fathered a church."

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus clearly teaches in EVERY translation on earth.--Matt 6:33--Therefore, keep on seeking-FIRST - the kingdom and his( YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness--And John 17:3 where he clearly teaches--The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD--His real teachers that have him teach exactly what he taught. So no they are not christian, The teaching of a trinity is calling Jesus a liar--Not a wise place to be standing

That is the sorcery, the Watchtower has subverted your ability to think critically, rationally. For example, they drilled in to your mind the following argument:

"The word "Trinity" doesn't appear in Scripture, and pagans believe in a Trinity, and the Trinity doctrine is very confusing.

As scripture says God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) the trinity doctrine is of the devil."

You lack the critical skills to see the logical fallacies in that argument.

1)Although the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible, it is like the word "Theocracy" which also does not appear in the Bible, yet both words denote a concept that is taught in the Bible. These are technical terms students use to easy refer to the ideas these "technical words" convey.

2)Pagans believed in three headed gods, or three gods in a trinity. Christians believe in One Yahweh God, in whom Three Persons equally subsist, and each are also called Yahweh God. Therefore, the dissimilarity rules out any comparison, like saying apples must taste like oranges because both are somewhat round.

3)God is not the author of confusing Tongues speaking. It is non-sequitur to say God is not the author of things that are hard to understand. He Himself is hard to understand, that is why God uses Anthropomorphisms to reveal Himself to us.

4)If reasons 1-3 mean the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity is of the Devil, then so also is the Watchtower's Doctrine of Theocracy of the Devil.

"The word "Theocracy" doesn't appear in Scripture, and pagans believe in a Theocracy, and the Theocracy doctrine is very confusing.

As scripture says God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) the Theocracy doctrine is of the devil."

Every "Kingdom Hall" then is "Satan's Hall."

 

[Hopeful]

Incorrect. The antithesis to the grave is to be above ground on earth. About 6 or seven feet difference in elevation.

Scripture gives an antithesis that contrasts ascending FAR ABOVE ALL THE HEAVENS, to descending to the Lowest Sheol:

9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:9-10 NKJ)

Sheol?
Don't add to what is written.

 

[Hopeful]

They are called "fathers" because of their proximity to the apostles in time, and because they begat other apologists:

For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. (1 Cor. 4:15 NKJ)

Not because they "fathered a church."

Jesus told us not to call any man "father".
Not only do you forget His words but imbue a false authority to those who came after them and changed things that are still written.

Does your "church" tell folks how to live without sin?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus told us not to call any man "father".
Not only do you forget His words but imbue a false authority to those who came after them and changed things that are still written.

Does your "church" tell folks how to live without sin?

Only liars claim they do not sin:

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 Jn. 1:10-2:1 NKJ)

Christian churches preach God has forgiven our sins because Christ paid the price for them.

Doesn't yours?

 

[Hopeful]

Only liars claim they do not sin:
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 Jn. 1:10-2:1 NKJ)

If you are a sinner/walking in darkness, you are lying if you say you have no sin.
But those from 1 John 1:7 walk in the light/God, and there is no sin (or sinner) in God.

Christian churches preach God has forgiven our sins because Christ paid the price for them.
Doesn't yours?

Sure does, and if you love God you won't repeat the sins.
That is what a true repentance from sin is, a "turn from".
Of course, if you love something more than you love God you will continue to commit sins.
That is idolatry.
No idolator is going to get eternal life from God.
I will close with what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."

 

[keiw1]

Incorrect. The false teachers were claiming to know God apart from Jesus, apart from His coming in the flesh. John is affirming the "one who is true" can be known only by us being "in Him who is true, Jesus Christ." This is an example where God the Son is being referred to as "the True God". The pronoun "this (one)" grammatically points to the last person named, Jesus Christ:

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. (1 Jn. 5:20-21 NKJ)

This is the climax, the entire point of John's argument, that Jesus is the connection to the Father True God. No way to the Father except through Jesus. And John has no problem calling Jesus God (John 1:1; 12:41 cp. Isa. 6:5; 1 John 5:7). It is fitting John double down on that proof by referring to the Person of the Son as the only true God.

If you know Jesus (the True God) you know the Father (the True God) also. No doubt John is thinking of this context as He argues knowing Christ the True God is knowing the Father the True God:

7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say,`Show us the Father '?
10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. (Jn. 14:7-11 NKJ)

And the contrast with idols, the false gods, is exactly what Jesus was doing when He called the Father the Only True God. Just as doing that does not imply Jesus is not God, neither does John's saying the Son is the only True God, imply the Father isn't God.

Your teachers do not tell truth, Example-Collosians 1:15--Jesus is the firstborn of all creation--a 10 year old understands all creation occurred at the beginning. Your teachers twist it to say it was when Jesus was born on earth--they do not speak truth.

 

[keiw1]

Only liars claim they do not sin:

If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 Jn. 1:10-2:1 NKJ)

Christian churches preach God has forgiven our sins because Christ paid the price for them.

Doesn't yours?

You take it out of context--Only repented sin will be forgiven-Acts 2:22--Repent and turn around( stop doing the sin, not just asking forgiveness) to get sin blotted out.
1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21= 2 lists of unacceptable sins. Both spots teach--will NOT enter Gods kingdom. And Jesus himself at Matt 7:21-23 assures-a worker of iniquity( one who practices a sin) will hear those words as judgement= Get away from me you work iniquity, i must confess i never even knew you--no matter what they think they did for Jesus all along. Jesus paid the price for the righteous ones sin, not for one who practices sin.
The bible clearly shows that the great crowd spoken of to be saved, washed their robes white=Repented and turned around and learned and applied Jesus Fathers will.

 

[keiw1]

Do "His real teachers" commit sin?

Every mortal sins. But the righteous do not do these sins-1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21--both spots teach--will not enter Gods kingdom if they do( practice one of them).

 

[keiw1]

That is the sorcery, the Watchtower has subverted your ability to think critically, rationally. For example, they drilled in to your mind the following argument:

"The word "Trinity" doesn't appear in Scripture, and pagans believe in a Trinity, and the Trinity doctrine is very confusing.

As scripture says God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) the trinity doctrine is of the devil."

You lack the critical skills to see the logical fallacies in that argument.

1)Although the word Trinity does not appear in the Bible, it is like the word "Theocracy" which also does not appear in the Bible, yet both words denote a concept that is taught in the Bible. These are technical terms students use to easy refer to the ideas these "technical words" convey.

2)Pagans believed in three headed gods, or three gods in a trinity. Christians believe in One Yahweh God, in whom Three Persons equally subsist, and each are also called Yahweh God. Therefore, the dissimilarity rules out any comparison, like saying apples must taste like oranges because both are somewhat round.

3)God is not the author of confusing Tongues speaking. It is non-sequitur to say God is not the author of things that are hard to understand. He Himself is hard to understand, that is why God uses Anthropomorphisms to reveal Himself to us.

4)If reasons 1-3 mean the Christian Doctrine of the Trinity is of the Devil, then so also is the Watchtower's Doctrine of Theocracy of the Devil.

"The word "Theocracy" doesn't appear in Scripture, and pagans believe in a Theocracy, and the Theocracy doctrine is very confusing.

As scripture says God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) the Theocracy doctrine is of the devil."

Every "Kingdom Hall" then is "Satan's Hall."

Lets see i am wrong, but i showed you what Jesus teaches in the bible--Maybe you should rethink your stance--Jesus is not wrong. Very sad to claim my teachers and i are wrong when its Jesus words i shared with you. Then you must claim Jesus is wrong= VERY SAD FOR YOU.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If you are a sinner/walking in darkness, you are lying if you say you have no sin.
But those from 1 John 1:7 walk in the light/God, and there is no sin (or sinner) in God.

Sure does, and if you love God you won't repeat the sins.
That is what a true repentance from sin is, a "turn from".
Of course, if you love something more than you love God you will continue to commit sins.
That is idolatry.
No idolator is going to get eternal life from God.
I will close with what Paul said in 1 Cor 15:34..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."

You ignored the context. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, but it is a process that isn't finished until the resurrection. If it were already accomplished, versus 8-9 would not exist:

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.- (1 Jn. 1:7-10 NKJ)

I think John is right. We don't sin until we do. If we don't deceive ourselves, we ask in Christ's Name God forgive our sin and continue cleansing us from all unrighteousness.

John says God is faithful, He will do that.

But if you convinced yourself you never sin, I think you deceive yourself.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Your teachers do not tell truth, Example-Collosians 1:15--Jesus is the firstborn of all creation--a 10 year old understands all creation occurred at the beginning. Your teachers twist it to say it was when Jesus was born on earth--they do not speak truth.

The Greek Orthodox translation of 4416 πρωτότοκος prototokos is better:

who is the image of the invisible God, preeminent over all creation. (Col. 1:15 RPTE)

Why is it better? This is Jewish Idiom, to say Christ is "firstborn" is to say "He is preeminent like God in whose image He is."

You do agree "the invisible God is preeminent?" Right?

Therefore, Paul cannot be using prototokos "first born" literally, for then he is saying the invisible God is also "first born", because Christ is "the image of the invisible God."

Surely you will agree, Paul would not say the Father is created, right?

Then you must agree, as Paul says Christ "is the image of the invisible God" "prototokos" cannot mean Christ is created.

You can't have it both ways. That's why the Greek Orthodox translation conveys the Semitic meaning of prototokos better than a literal translation. Its idiom and idiom should never be parsed literally.

For example, its idiom to say "step on the gas" to a driver. Does he literally step in liquid gas? No, of course not. He depresses the gas peddle of a car and goes faster, so the idiom "step on the gas" means "go faster." That's how it should be translated, otherwise it confuses readers.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You take it out of context--Only repented sin will be forgiven-Acts 2:22--Repent and turn around( stop doing the sin, not just asking forgiveness) to get sin blotted out.
1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21= 2 lists of unacceptable sins. Both spots teach--will NOT enter Gods kingdom. And Jesus himself at Matt 7:21-23 assures-a worker of iniquity( one who practices a sin) will hear those words as judgement= Get away from me you work iniquity, i must confess i never even knew you--no matter what they think they did for Jesus all along. Jesus paid the price for the righteous ones sin, not for one who practices sin.
The bible clearly shows that the great crowd spoken of to be saved, washed their robes white=Repented and turned around and learned and applied Jesus Fathers will.

No, I did not take it out of context. I did not say we shouldn't repent of sin and strive to sin no more. I said only liars claim they do not sin. I got that idea from John's words quoted.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Lets see i am wrong, but i showed you what Jesus teaches in the bible--Maybe you should rethink your stance--Jesus is not wrong. Very sad to claim my teachers and i are wrong when its Jesus words i shared with you. Then you must claim Jesus is wrong= VERY SAD FOR YOU.

You evaded my simple statement. Here it is again. Prove it wrong:

"The word "Theocracy" doesn't appear in Scripture, and pagans believe in a Theocracy, and the Theocracy doctrine is very confusing.

As scripture says God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) the Theocracy doctrine is of the devil."

Therefore, every "Kingdom Hall" is "Satan's Hall."

Babylon the Great Mother of Harlots gave it birth.

 

[Hopeful]

Every mortal sins. But the righteous do not do these sins-1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21--both spots teach--will not enter Gods kingdom if they do( practice one of them).

That being said, I thank God for allowing me to be reborn of His seed.
I am a new creature now, and not merely a mortal.
His seed cannot bring forth the devil's fruit.

 

[Hopeful]

You ignored the context. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin, but it is a process that isn't finished until the resurrection. If it were already accomplished, versus 8-9 would not exist:

You seem to be unaware that John alternated the verses pertaining to those who walk in darkness, (sin), with the verses pertaining to those who walk in light, (God).
Paul used the same technique in Rom 8.
If we walk in the light after our confession and cleansing, there is no reason to think we will return to the darkness.
That is unless our repentance from sin was a lie to God.
Or don't you think anyone walks in the light?

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.- (1 Jn. 1:7-10 NKJ)
I think John is right. We don't sin until we do. If we don't deceive ourselves, we ask in Christ's Name God forgive our sin and continue cleansing us from all unrighteousness.

If we have no sin, it isn't a lie or deception.
Only those who walk in darkness commit sin.
Those who walk in the light walk in God.
There is no sin in God.

John says God is faithful, He will do that.
But if you convinced yourself you never sin, I think you deceive yourself.

Were your POV true, Jesus died only for sacrificial animals.
It would be the only change since the OT ended.
I choose to believe what Jesus said in John 8:32-34..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
The truth freed me from committing sin.
It can free you too.