Could God's plan for the lost be this simple?

[keiw1]

David didn't have the NT teachings, or Jesus to die for Him, so that He could be reborn of God's seed and he could walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
We do have them, thanks be to God.

Again, a pre-rebirth situation.
If an earlier repentance was ever made, the sin showed it was a lie to God.
One can't form a relationship with God that is based on lies.

I agree, and since no trinity god exists, billions are being mislead into not entering Gods kingdom.

 

[keiw1]

If Jesus is saying what you claim, then it becomes "stupid".

Who doesn't know God is greater than any creature?

As that is how you interpret it, and it would be a stupid thing to say, Jesus IS NOT saying that.


Jesus did not say "The Father is BETTER than I" as you claim. "Greater" does not mean "better".

For example. You are "greater" than your son, but not "BETTER" because he is human like you.

"So the Father isn’t greater than Jesus in deity any more than a human father is greater than his son in humanity"-Gundry


Read the entire verse. WHY did Jesus say: If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I am going to the Father?

They were sad for THEMSELVES, rather than rejoicing at Jesus' exaltation upon returning to His Father in Triumph, they were thinking only of themselves.

All Fathers are greater than their sons, and they shower their children with affection and gifts and its a joyous time of love and fellowship. If they were putting Jesus first, loving Him rather than thinking about themselves, they would rejoice.

He would be returning to His Father in Triumph, having shamed all principalities and powers and ruler of this world.

Having vindicated the Father to all in heaven and earth, glorified His Name.

NOW READ the entire verse:

"You have heard Me say to you, `I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, `I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (Jn. 14:28 NKJ)


If the prodigal son got the Fattened calf, what would the Son of God receive at His return?

If they loved Jesus, of course they would want He go to the Father, for the Father is greater than He. Its the Father who would make the celebration happen.

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands,
12 saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!"
13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!" And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever. (Rev. 5:11-14 NKJ)

Twisting it doesnt change reality. verse 13-one sitting on the throne= God, then the lamb =Jesus is mentioned. verse 14-they worshipped the one on the throne.

 

[keiw1]

I seem to have touched a nerve. Perhaps the conviction of the Holy Spirit is finally breaking through the WatchTower programming.

The Holy Trinity was so important to Jesus He made belief in it a requirement for Baptism:

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. (Matt. 28:19-1:1 NKJ)

Just as the Father is a Person and the Son is a Person, the Holy Spirit must be a Person because they all share the same Name.

Funny, he taught all how to serve the true God correctly after warning of all other gods being false-John 4:22-24--only the Father. The one he calls-The ONLY TRUE GOD( one who sent Jesus) at John 17:3 while in prayer to his God and Father. Trinity translations contradict Jesus to the core because of errors translated in to fit false council teachings such as a trinity god.
The new catholic encyclopedia says--In the majority of mentions of the Holy spirit in the NT is not as a living being.)))
The Holy spirit has no name-all living beings do-Never shown sitting on a throne, never mentioned to get honor, glory and stuff the Father shares with Jesus. Neber mentioned as king of Gods kingdom. Many very important verses mention God and Jesus separate but no mention of the Holy spirit--that one passage you shared mentions the 3. Its the only one.

 

[keiw1]

What about Messianic Jewish Hebrew Scholars? Why don't you quote them?

A Look at the Trinity From a Messianic Jewish Perspective - Jews for Jesus

Rabbis who believed that each word of the Hebrew Scriptures, each letter, is God’s revelation had to admit that God spoke to himself and referred to himself in the plural. How can that be, when we know there is only one God?

jewsforjesus.org

The Jewish religion is cut off, So if they still associate with it, they arent worth listening to.

 

[keiw1]

Finally we agree. Who knows, perhaps there is more agreement to come?

E. C. Gruss' "Apostles of Denial" "went over my head" mostly, but Acts 13:2 got my attention:

"As they publicly ministered to Jehovah and fasted, the holy spirit said, 'Separate Saul and Barnabus to ME for the work to which I have called them.'"-Acts 13:2 NWT

They are ministering to Jehovah, but Jehovah does not speak, it is the Holy Spirit who speaks, using personal pronouns "Me" "I".

Only a Person can say "I" "ME".

Many things in the bible are shown as person like but arent. Like wisdom and discernment calling out, and giving forth its voice--they arent living beings. But are portrayed as the such.

 

[Hopeful]

Jesus is the only one who didnt sin.

He was the first, (besides Enoch and Elijah).
Thank God we can all live without sin since Jesus' resurrection.

 

[Hopeful]

I agree, and since no trinity god exists, billions are being mislead into not entering Gods kingdom.

The bigger "misleading" is that men in Christ will continue to serve sin.
That is the common denominator of all false "churches".

 

[Alfred Persson]

Twisting it doesnt change reality. verse 13-one sitting on the throne= God, then the lamb =Jesus is mentioned. verse 14-they worshipped the one on the throne.

Didn't twist, I made a logical deduction. Jesus never said anything stupid. So when your interpretation assumes He did, then its your interpretation that is wrong.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Many things in the bible are shown as person like but arent. Like wisdom and discernment calling out, and giving forth its voice--they arent living beings. But are portrayed as the such.

Apples and oranges. The personifications in poetry are apples, the Holy Spirit commanding the disciples in prose (a "news paper like report of an actual event) is an orange. They aren't the same thing.

This actually happened, its not poetry:

1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. (Acts 13:1-4 NKJ)

That's not a personification, its an eyewitness report of what happened.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The Jewish religion is cut off, So if they still associate with it, they arent worth listening to.

Messianic Jews are Christians. But you claimed all Hebrew scholars dispute the Trinity, but you didn't cut them off, did you?

But as that link showed, the Jews know "Let us create man in our image" does reveal a complex unity in God, and the various ways they tried to avoid that conclusion down through history were listed on that site. Hebrew scholars know what the text says, they just don't believe it.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Funny, he taught all how to serve the true God correctly after warning of all other gods being false-John 4:22-24--only the Father. The one he calls-The ONLY TRUE GOD( one who sent Jesus) at John 17:3 while in prayer to his God and Father. Trinity translations contradict Jesus to the core because of errors translated in to fit false council teachings such as a trinity god.
The new catholic encyclopedia says--In the majority of mentions of the Holy spirit in the NT is not as a living being.)))
The Holy spirit has no name-all living beings do-Never shown sitting on a throne, never mentioned to get honor, glory and stuff the Father shares with Jesus. Neber mentioned as king of Gods kingdom. Many very important verses mention God and Jesus separate but no mention of the Holy spirit--that one passage you shared mentions the 3. Its the only one.

And the Spirit of Jehovah fell upon me, and he said unto me, Speak, Thus saith Jehovah: Thus have ye said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind. (Ezek. 11:5 ASV)

The Father is Jehovah, the Son is Jehovah (John 1:41 cp. Isa. 6:5; Zech. 12:10; Phil. 2:11) and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah (2 Chron. 24:20; Ezek. 11:5) but there is only One (0259 אֶחָד 'echad) Jehovah:

0259 אֶחָד 'echad denotes a complex unity, just like "us" and "our" in Gen. 1:26

Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one (0259 אֶחָד 'echad) Jehovah: (Deut. 6:4 ASV)

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one (0259 אֶחָד 'echad) flesh. (Gen. 2:24 KJV)

Two Persons in One (0259 אֶחָד 'echad) flesh = complex unity.

That complex unity is what Jesus commanded the church be baptized in the GRAMMATICALLY SINGULAR Name (3686 ὄνομα onoma) that contains THREE Names: Father Son Holy Spirit, a complex unity = The Holy Trinity

βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος· (Matt. 28:19 BYZ)

 

[keiw1]

He was the first, (besides Enoch and Elijah).
Thank God we can all live without sin since Jesus' resurrection.

Enoch and Elijah sinned, all mortals did except Jesus.

 

[keiw1]

The bigger "misleading" is that men in Christ will continue to serve sin.
That is the common denominator of all false "churches".

1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21--2 lists of unacceptable sins, both spots teach--will not enter Gods kingdom if one practices one of those sins. Yes some religious teachers tell the followers Jesus death covered all sin. That is not truth, yet they believe it. At Galations-Paul mentions spiritism, the Greek word = Farmacia, thus drug addiction is apart of that. So with those 2 lists combined with all the false god worship on earth=99% mislead. The reason Jesus compares these last days to Noahs day. Luke 17:26

 

[keiw1]

Didn't twist, I made a logical deduction. Jesus never said anything stupid. So when your interpretation assumes He did, then its your interpretation that is wrong.

You wont believe Jesus so why mention him?--John 17:3 teaches-the one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

 

[keiw1]

Apples and oranges. The personifications in poetry are apples, the Holy Spirit commanding the disciples in prose (a "news paper like report of an actual event) is an orange. They aren't the same thing.

This actually happened, its not poetry:

1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. (Acts 13:1-4 NKJ)

That's not a personification, its an eyewitness report of what happened.

Since the Holy spirit isnt a living being, it was actually God who spoke through the holy spirit. Just like in the single passage where God sent the holy spirit as a go between and God asked a question, the answer was a lie, it wasnt to the holy spirit who got lied to, it was to God the lie went. It isnt as your religion twists it to be. God asked the question, he Got the answer. The Holy spirit was just a go between.

 

[keiw1]

Messianic Jews are Christians. But you claimed all Hebrew scholars dispute the Trinity, but you didn't cut them off, did you?

But as that link showed, the Jews know "Let us create man in our image" does reveal a complex unity in God, and the various ways they tried to avoid that conclusion down through history were listed on that site. Hebrew scholars know what the text says, they just don't believe it.

Truth is truth, no matter the source. Satan knows much truth, would he be wrong if he spoke a truth-no.

Let us( YHWH and his master worker) is the reality of that statement.

 

[keiw1]

And the Spirit of Jehovah fell upon me, and he said unto me, Speak, Thus saith Jehovah: Thus have ye said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind. (Ezek. 11:5 ASV)

The Father is Jehovah, the Son is Jehovah (John 1:41 cp. Isa. 6:5; Zech. 12:10; Phil. 2:11) and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah (2 Chron. 24:20; Ezek. 11:5) but there is only One (0259 אֶחָד 'echad) Jehovah:

0259 אֶחָד 'echad denotes a complex unity, just like "us" and "our" in Gen. 1:26

Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one (0259 אֶחָד 'echad) Jehovah: (Deut. 6:4 ASV)

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one (0259 אֶחָד 'echad) flesh. (Gen. 2:24 KJV)

Two Persons in One (0259 אֶחָד 'echad) flesh = complex unity.

That complex unity is what Jesus commanded the church be baptized in the GRAMMATICALLY SINGULAR Name (3686 ὄνομα onoma) that contains THREE Names: Father Son Holy Spirit, a complex unity = The Holy Trinity

βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος· (Matt. 28:19 BYZ)

Actually in the OT it says--The LORD(YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus), proving he is not YHWH.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Actually in the OT it says--The LORD(YHWH) said to my Lord( Jesus), proving he is not YHWH.

He is not YHWH the Father, He is YHWH the Son "to the glory of God the Father as the NWT should have translated in Phil. 2:11 because it is a quote of Isaiah 45:21-25 that clearly refers to BOTH YHWH the Father and YHWH the Son:

How is a modern translator to know or determine when to render the Greek words Κύριος and Θεός into the divine name in his version? By determining where the inspired Christians writers have quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures. Then he must refer back to the original to locate whether thee divine name appears there. This way he can determine the identity to give to ku'ri-os and the-os' and he can then clothe them with personality.-Kingdom Interlinear Translation, WatchTower Bible & Tract Society, New York 1969, Forward p. 19



9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,
10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground
11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord (Κύριος) to the glory of God the Father.-NWT

21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD [YHWH]? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.
22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say, `Surely in the LORD [YHWH] I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him.
25 In the LORD [YHWH] all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory.'" (Isa. 45:21-25 NKJ)

Here the complex unity of YHWH God is clearly evident. There is no God (substance) except YHWH, and YHWH swears "to ME every knee shall bow, Every Tongue shall take an oath" to YHWH the Son---To Him men shall come...in Him LORD [YHWH] all the descendants of Israel shall be justified.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." (Rom. 11:26-27 NKJ)

YHWH the Son is the Deliverer, all who incensed against Him will be ashamed, to Him every knee shall bow and every tongue say "Jesus Christ is YHWH to the glory of God the Father."


You Jehovah's Witnesses should get ready to confess:

"Jesus Christ is YHWH to the glory of God the Father."

 

[Hopeful]

Enoch and Elijah sinned, all mortals did except Jesus.

There was no Law while Enoch walked among us, so without Law, there is no sin. (Rom 3:20)
And, as it is written that "the wages of sin is death", neither died so their lives must have been free of sin to satisfy the Rom 6:23 scripture.
I'ld also like to point out Rom 5:13-14..."(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
Who do you think Paul is referring to there?
Having skin and bones doesn't equate to "sinner".
If it did, all babies are sinners.
All the aborted babies will go to hell.
Is that what you think?

 

[Hopeful]

1Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19-21--2 lists of unacceptable sins, both spots teach--will not enter Gods kingdom if one practices one of those sins. Yes some religious teachers tell the followers Jesus death covered all sin. That is not truth, yet they believe it. At Galations-Paul mentions spiritism, the Greek word = Farmacia, thus drug addiction is apart of that. So with those 2 lists combined with all the false god worship on earth=99% mislead. The reason Jesus compares these last days to Noahs day. Luke 17:26

There are no "acceptable" sins.
That is why Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)
He is correct, as usual.